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Thread: [MP Wishlist] AoE Dmg/Init debuffs

  1. #1

    [MP Wishlist] AoE Dmg/Init debuffs

    Hey All,

    I've been thinking recently about the MP roles in PvM. It strikes me that the primary role of the MP in PvM should be about Active Damage Reduction - both of weapon and Nano damage - via dmg debuffs, dmg/init debuffs, (E)-NSD, scourge nanos, Stuns etc. There are various difficulties with this in terms of things like needing to get mobs doing more nano damage, casting more stuff, giving some mobs reflect piercing to counteract passive damage reduction etc etc. but they're stuff that could be overcome in mob design rather than specifically in the MP toolset.

    As I thought about it, though, it became clear that one of the major tools missing specifically from the MP toolset, if they were to have the primary role of Active Damage Reduction, is the AoE Damage/Init debuff.

    Active Damage Reduction struggles in PvM particularly against passive damage reduction and team healing. One person giving the tank a reflect AC buff already means that they give way more damage reduction than us, purely because all the mobs hitting a tank have their damage reduced. Giving Reflect AC buffs to the whole team gives an even greater effect since aggro always switches to some extent. Generally though... active effects like debuffs should really be more effective than passive ones, since they have to counter def checks, have nanocost, take attack cycles out of our toolset and so on.

    Similarly, even a secondary team healer like an MA really has a greater effect overall on the whole team's damage levels when the mobs are in groups and more than one team-mate is taking damage.

    I think that it is key to our PvM contribution as damage reducers, that the MP should have a line of AoE damage/init reduction. I also think that this should stack with our single target lines (RK and SL debuffs). We should be able to offer some decent damage reduction on a group of mobs with AoE and then give massive damage reduction on a single main target with our singe-target stuff stacking on top of the AoE.

    Last edited by XtremTech; Dec 31st, 2009 at 14:05:07.

  2. #2
    Well, though I disagree on your estimation of the MP priorites, I think this would actualy be a good idea both for pvm and pvp. The mantra of the MP in either situation is "too many nanos, too little time" so something an MP can just hit and then focus on other stuff, nuking or debuffing.,

    It would need to be in a separate line at the very least because of the conflict I've noticed with our Dxxx of Will line versus the Crat's Malaise of XXX line of nanos. I'll be looking at testing the limits of this but looking at the line on Auno shows where the conflict is pretty quickly.

    Aside from that, this is a great idea, and not the first time an AOE debuff has been suggested. I'll get this on the wishlist when I have a few more minutes to rub together since I'm still actively working on it.

  3. #3
    Had a thought, however, that could be of interest to folks/developers.

    YOu know how Malpractice ramps up its debuff when you spam it? Keeps the doctor using it from really doing a lot else but can keep the damage up on someone?

    The idea that came to me is that if we had a similar AOE debuff that could be ramped up through spamming not unlike Malpractice, then we'd have a way of managing multiple mobs but would have to work to keep the debuffs up on them.

    The first AOE could have a duration of, oh, say a minute so that if you just want the basic one up to help out but aren't interested in serious DD, or you're facing a smaller zerg swarm, this will let you get out a debuff to help but then get back to the damage, but the second iteration would last only 30 seconds, the third 15, and the last maybe 10-13 seconds or less. Each iteration would bring more -damage debuffing so if you wanted to focus on it, you could just sit there and spam this AOE debuff and it would REALLY help the team in the matter of shutting down damage around it at the cost of not contributing personal and nuke damage. Second thinking on this tells me that maybe 30/15/10/5 might be better duration rates, with the last iteration simply refreshing itself rather than starting over. Once again, separating this from the single-target debuff lines would be a must so you can just pop the AOE debuff once or twice to help on adds while then using the bigger SL debuffs to focus on the big dog of the group (or let the crat Malaise work it's stuff)

    Would be an interesting idea and would keep us in nano recharge but be useful while doing so.

  4. #4
    I really like that in concept. The cumulative AOE debuffs would need to be meaningful for endgame content though, which as I understand it would require them being stronger than the present top of the line debuffs. Am I wrong, or are our present damage debuffs generally thought to be rather insignificant against end game mobs?

  5. #5
    Not so much insignificant as problematic. The debuffs require 3 casts to get up to full effectiveness, and as I've recently discovered, you might not even get to use them as it is now because of the small matter of the Will line overwriting the Malaise line, and in general, init debuffing is more preferred on boss mobs, especially when UBT proof, than straight DD debuffing, effectiveness for which is reduced with init debuffing, reflects, etc., because our DD debuffing comes BEFORE all that.

    As to effectiveness vs. end game content, it's hard to say. A lot of stuff I've seen lately has been in the 4-5k range, which would be effective, and then there' 10k hits, which we might as well not bother. Scaling debuffs wouldn't hurt, honestly.

  6. #6
    I do like the idea of the mounting AoE damage debuff that increases the more you focus on it. I think you're also right in suggesting that the base debuff be fairly stable over time, so that you could choose to add the single-target ones onto it or go for a more general AoE approach. That gives you more overall tactical options to choose from, of which I'm a great fan.

    As to the question of UBT, Crat Dmg/Init debuffs - and you should also add in the effect of passive Reflect buffs - these are issues that really need to be addressed for damage debuffing. The difficulty with both Inits and reflects is that they efffectively work on a percentage basis. Reflects are obviously %age based - and inits, because they slow down the number of hits in a given time also essentially reduce damage in a percentage way. The amount slowed will reduce a given %age of damage by reducing hits/minute.

    There are routes in content design that can help solve these issues. I'd like to see 1 in 4 mobs in PvM content have reflect piercing attacks for example. On such mobs, MP damage debuffs would suddenly be much more powerful. I also think that a goodly few mobs should have really high init values, so that UBT was less powerfully effective against them - again allowing damage debuffs to have more effect.

    We generally need to see more variety in PvM mobs, with the different kinds of mobs being mixed up together more. In a given room, you might have 1 reflect piercing mob, 1 high init mob, 1 casting mob doing nukes/debuffs and a few 'infantry' mobs. You'd want different support roles focussed on different areas. An MP in a team might AoE damage debuff to reduce infantry damage, NSD the caster and single-target dmg debuff the reflect piercer. A crat might AoE calm the infantry, letting the group foucs on the tougher mobs, while the Doc slows the caster and the piercer with UBT and so on.

    As to the Crat Dmg/Init debuff - I fought long and hard for them to not get those debuffs. There was some reasoning behind it, as their calms had gained init debuffs in their PvP form... but they should never have been given a dmg/init debuff. Or at best, the dmg/init debuff should have been PvP only.

    As DR has discovered, the damage debuffing role that really should be the MP's role is often better filled by the Crat debuff really - and they don't stack. Even if they did stack, I still think that the MP should at least be the equal of Crats on init debuffing.

    My suggestion would be that the MP RK dmg/init debuffs should be upgraded to be the equal of the Crat ones. I think it's OK that Crats should be able to debuff to that level when an MP isn't available... but the MP should be at least as good on the init debuff side and also be able to layer their pure damage debuffs on top of that. Crats have a great many tools available for damage reduction in PvM through crowd control... they don't need to be competing with our debuffs too.

    I think that Crats would much rather see their crowd control functionality improved, whether through content design or some tool redesign, than be really attached to the dmg/init debuff. Dmg/Init debuffs should be the MP strength first and foremost.

    Last edited by XtremTech; Jan 1st, 2010 at 10:52:57.

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