'Defence' vs 'Offence'

**Oppopji** · Dec 28th, 2009, 18:18:16

Something that's been bugging me for a while is how much more 'defence' (AAD/evades) is generally available compared to 'offence' (AAO/weapon+specials skills), mainly regarding HUD/Utils items. For example:

L3 Defence HUD: +50 AAD, +100 evades = +150 'defence' total
L3 Offence HUD: +60 AAO, +100 damage = +60 'offence' total (the +damage really isn't comparable to +100 evades... +damage is more of a counterpart to +HP imo)

= +150 'defence' vs +60 'offence'

This is also noticeable with other items like the Albtraum HUD/Utils items:

Ancient Defender: +25 AAD, +25 NR, +300 max health, +50 first aid
Infused Ancient Defender: +50 AAD, +30 NR, +500 max health, +60 first aid
Ancient Vision Preservation Unit: +25 AAD, +50% blind resist
Infused Ancient Vision Preservation Unit: +50 AAD, +60% blind resist

For these there aren't really any "equivalent" alternatives as with the research HUDs, the closest I can think of are the likes of the Ancient Combat Tuners and the Ancient Manual Aiming Aids - which only really benefit ranged users and don't really offer anywhere near as much of a boost to a character's offence as the items above do to defence.

I think the +damage modifiers on the offence research HUDs should be moved to the combat research HUDs and the AAO modifier on the offence research HUDs should be increased (+150 AAO for L3) to make them about the same in effect to the defence HUDs. Also the combat tuners etc. should be boosted to give more AAO/weapon & specials skills (they should be useful for melee users too) and perhaps new offence boosting items (DB infused combat tuners/aiming aids?) should be added.

**SSK** · Dec 28th, 2009, 18:30:10

How it's easy to say what you want with just small bit of whole picture. While it may be true with picking just HUDs, it's completely opposite in other areas. You can pick research as example.

**Oppopji** · Dec 28th, 2009, 18:50:50

But personal research is all profession locked - the research devices, ancient defenders/vision preservation units etc. are not (well, except the aiming aids - but I was struggling to find comparable items to the defenders/VPUs).

**SSK** · Dec 28th, 2009, 18:55:03

Can you find counter item for vision enhancer HUD?

**Entventurer** · Dec 28th, 2009, 19:18:31

More offence would be disastrous.

More defence would also be pretty terrible.

Stop trying to destroy the game!

**haavarst** · Dec 28th, 2009, 19:31:33

Originally Posted by Entventurer

More offence would be disastrous.

More defence would also be pretty terrible.

Stop trying to destroy the game!

Wonder why noone told the devs that before they improved advs that already where on top into stupidity.

**Entventurer** · Dec 28th, 2009, 20:36:04

Originally Posted by haavarst

Wonder why noone told the devs that before they improved advs that already where on top into stupidity.

Good thing that advs got worse after LE. (Until the pistol patch).

**Bigbluebear** · Dec 29th, 2009, 00:10:45

Shhhh entagimps

**Armus** · Dec 30th, 2009, 00:53:42

Dum de dum.. here I am inside BS with a good team.. crat, keeper and trader.. dum de dum. 4200 ish constant AR.

Does that mean that i get to hit fixers or advies more than once every now and then?

Heck no!

Just sayin!

**Marinegent** · Dec 30th, 2009, 03:22:24

Originally Posted by Noobius76

Dum de dum.. here I am inside BS with a good team.. crat, keeper and trader.. dum de dum. 4200 ish constant AR.

Does that mean that i get to hit fixers or advies more than once every now and then?

Heck no!

Just sayin!

Strange.

I can PERK advies and hit fixers somewhat reliably on my 220 agent.

I think your doing something wrong.

**Armus** · Dec 30th, 2009, 07:12:23

Originally Posted by Marinegent

Strange.

I can PERK advies and hit fixers somewhat reliably on my 220 agent.

I think your doing something wrong.

Or maybe your fixers and advies just suck!

Humor aside a soldier won't hit a fixer reliably enough to actually do anything other than make the fixer laugh or freak out when an fa actually does land for some reason.

I'm not saying I should hit easily. But ur not getting much more ar than that in this game. Just saying their defenses are way better than the best off.

**Chrazy** · Dec 30th, 2009, 10:57:40

Originally Posted by Noobius76

I'm not saying I should hit easily. But ur not getting much more ar than that in this game. Just saying their defenses are way better than the best off.

Other profs got tools to destroy fixers. Why do most soljas think they should be able to kill everyone all the time?

**Boltgun** · Dec 30th, 2009, 15:40:48

Originally Posted by Chrazy

Other profs got tools to destroy fixers. Why do most soljas think they should be able to kill everyone all the time?

Because 'tools to destroy' are better replaced by proper mechanics. Solds feel that way because they are either kings or fools. Will you feel better if you nullify a soldier attack by your own evade build then pressing 2 perks ?

**Kinkstaah** · Dec 31st, 2009, 00:17:57

Originally Posted by Chrazy

Other profs got tools to destroy fixers. Why do most soljas think they should be able to kill everyone all the time?

they should, every class should be able to kill other classes.. doesnt have to be a 50/50 chance, but being 100% useless vs another class is utter crap gameplay.

**Armus** · Dec 31st, 2009, 00:55:07

Originally Posted by Kinkstaah

they should, every class should be able to kill other classes.. doesnt have to be a 50/50 chance, but being 100% useless vs another class is utter crap gameplay.

Exactly! That's what balance means. In my world anyway.

Not easy to achieve in this tupe of game. A good start would be to remove some of the blatantly overpowered stuff that was introduced with LE.

I changed my mind about RI though. It's not overpowered as long as an agent can easily sneak up and pop out once the soldiers reflects are gone.

**Kinkstaah** · Dec 31st, 2009, 02:00:37

Originally Posted by Noobius76

Exactly! That's what balance means. In my world anyway.

Not easy to achieve in this tupe of game. A good start would be to remove some of the blatantly overpowered stuff that was introduced with LE.

A soldier with 4100 AR falls into the catagory of "can kill things and do damage". Easily. Very very easily.

I changed my mind about RI though. It's not overpowered as long as an agent can easily sneak up and pop out once the soldiers reflects are gone.

If AMS had a visual effect that showed as long as it was up, yes, and a different effect that showed when normal reflects were up, as long as they were up, then yes.

However, when you hit AS, you dont know if soldier has reflect, AMS, or nothing at all - So no.

**Armus** · Dec 31st, 2009, 02:05:44

Well it's not like we choose when an agent pops out of sneak either, is it? If we've used our defense then we can't debuff.

**Kinkstaah** · Dec 31st, 2009, 02:24:29

You cant say agent has the tactical advantage of "waiting till AMS is out when in sneak" either.

Because it is impossible to know.

The chances of AMS running out, right when an Agent is about to attack you randomly, when you happen to be in the same place (remember, sneak speed is a major problem) are absolutely astonomical.

And by astronomical, it's probably in the same region as dying to an agent when a soldier is doing a full IPR.

**Questra** · Jan 1st, 2010, 01:35:18

Originally Posted by SSK

Can you find counter item for vision enhancer HUD?

Yes, up to 6 NCUs that almost everyone uses which provide Crit reduction.

**sultryvoltron** · Jan 1st, 2010, 06:03:16

Originally Posted by Questra

Yes, up to 6 NCUs that almost everyone uses which provide Crit reduction.

Nobody uses those anymore. Don't lie.

Thread: 'Defence' vs 'Offence'

Thread Tools

'Defence' vs 'Offence'

Posting Permissions