TL 7 MP concerns

[Metafly7]

Geesh is it that hard to be constructive?

Heres what i think is lacking and falls under the concerns of the Mp pet wise.

The general command given when a pet is casted is /pet guard. This however means that every time we zone the pet automatically attacks guards who attack us. Which leaves us flagged whereas other NON-pet proffesions dont have that same problem.

So if the general command would be /pet follow or in the case of the healpet /pet heal %m (which would rock even more but not needed) then alot of the flagging problems for pet proffesions could be dealt with.

As for Rihwen. His AR is very decent still, ull make many ppl just run like hell with it. But the problem is that running. It works, kiting a pet is actually usefull and gives an advantage. So either the pet has to be able to keep up or he has to slow them down. What i could imagine is that the pets runspeed is no longer relying on the caster but that it has a runspeed of its own. Lets say we give him the cap speed of 2500 runspeed. Then giving him a snare wont actually stop him, but slow him down.

Which brings us to the next pet related concern. Landing the snares on pets is far to easy for the modification it brings. Because a snare actually stops ur pet like a root. Landing roots on pets isnt as simple as landing snares so all proffesions who have acces to roots abuse that.

This next problem isnt nearly as big as the rest and alot of pet pathing problems have been fixed so i dont wanna whine to much about it. But when u cross over a hill the pet doesnt emidiatly follow, but it runs back off the hill, to turn around and come back up at a different angle. I have no clue as to why or what causes it. But it does.

As for the mezz pet and healpet. When they cast they often stand still for a long while during casting and it makes em vulnerable for both pvp and pvm stuff because they just stand around and wait to be kicked silly. I think that could be fixed by pets instacasting what they need to cast but having a longer recharge on their nanos to not allow them to heal to fast. But they have to keep up a bit.

As for pets ive now said everything i could think of these last few minutes of typing, so im out again for now, ill get new inspiration each next person whos unable to be even a bit constructive. Really guys sad to see u cant even put a little effort into helping the new proffesionals (this doesnt ofcourse go for the ones that CAN put effort in). Goodluck Dance and Cor, hope u find something usefull in this.

[Flyingengi]

Fix MP pvm.

By that, I mean make us desirable in tl7 content. It's almost impossible to get a team for the Xan instances other than org mates feeling sorry for you.

[Dancingrage]

Thanks for the input, Metafly, I'll get that in the wish/buglist, though pet pathing seems to be a Sisyphean task that just keeps going, one of these days I hope it'll finally be tackled for good.

@Flyingengi: Low damage is something already looked at with the Channel Rage changes but on this I'm going to want a range from you of what kind of damage you'd like to see from the attack pet, and what kind of damage you lay down and with what weapon. If I get a few replies I'll just make a new thread for input on this matter. As I see it we have room for improvment aplenty since the last Evocation we get is locked to a whole whopping 201 for level....and I could have cast it probably back in TL5, and there's still 19 more shadowlevels to go. There's plenty of room for new improvement, but I want a target number before I start pestering the developers.

[Jihla]

I agree with Flyingengi regarding making MPs more desirable in PvM, however I don't think more damage is the answer.

When speaking of pet classes, I don't think engineers have it any easier, despite them being able to push out some decent damage while providing reflects that almost match soldiers.

When it comes to crats, the main reason they get teams is because of the rather silly init debuffs (and to some extent the boss calm).

MPs doesn't have alot to offer in a team. Our healpet is barely capable of keeping anything alive, and works more like a HoT people can run away from - and sometimes do. Our main debuffing ability, NSD, has practically no effect in the majority of the encounters we face. One of our secondary debuffing abilities, the damage debuffs, make little difference to most encounters, and requires endless spamming of the 2nd debuff.

What would really help, and probably make MPs just as desirable in teams as crats, would be (like I suggested earlier) if the damage debuffs had a major revamp. The casting time reduction was great, and so was the removal of the huge taunts, but they need to debuff more, depending on the mob. Like I said, debuffing a mob which hits for nearly 10K by 883 damage pr hit can't be compared to neither 24% reflect or crippling initiative debuffs.

[Camar]

I did a Pande raid last Sunday.

While I did 4m damage after a bit of time, a crat did 6m. He even ODed two shades.
The pets do MUCH more damage than ours. Now the weapons do more damage with the new pistols and full PM perks available. The nukes are better as well.
So why on earth would someone take an MP in team over a crat? They have the best CC in game, plus useful, unique buffs like %xp and the nice auras. What can we bring to a team? We have literally no beneficial buffs. Aside from generic buffs, my MP casts CMo, Odin's and AoR on him. That's it. Odin's is self, half the profs out there have better buffs that AoR, and CMo lasts 8hours. You just get it before doing something if you need it.
The only things MPs are actually needed is for the occiasional NSD, like for Inf key. Our RK Init/Damage debuff is laughable nowadays. Our heavy damage debuffs have way too short durations and are usually not needed except for soloing.

It is always said "MPs have three pets go stfu". But one pet is basically useless. I would trade the Mezzpet for Engi's CC in a heart beat (and Crat's CC, yeah well, that would be like a wet dream...).

Secondly, our healpet is horribly outdated. When I heal with my advy, I can barely see an Enf's HP bar move during raids, and Morti heals half of that. The endgame mobs hit for 2-4k and more per hit. 1.6k tops every 7-8 seconds just doesn't cut it in any way.

So we basically have just one pet left, that, while having the highest HP of all endgame pets, also has the lowest defense. And like said before, the damage is just not that great compared to the other two pet profs (which is only natural, since they have two attack pets).

So basically, all our pets are just outdated. Each of them has to get some improvements to make them worthwhile.
Add some additional effects to Mezzpet, like a snare/root/blind/stun/init debuff/w.e. with a break% of below 100%, with some range, so that it can actually prevent kiting. Maybe make us choose between different mezzpets according to the task we wanna do, or maybe even give us the option to not cast it at all in exchange for some big damageboost for Rihwen (should work with some lockout system).
Give us a 220 Healpet with a decent amount of HP so it isn't alphaed in PvP so easily, a decent speed of the healing nano, and some kind of fixed amount + % heal so it gets a little more useful in team situations, but not too overpowered for soloing.
Add a bit more survivabilty to Rihwen, so it can actually tank some red mobs without going splat in less than a minute. Up the damage so it is up to par with the other pets running around. It should be our main source of damage, but sadly it is just a DoT atm.

[Dancingrage]

Camar, same question goes for you, what ranges would you like to see on 220 healpet, what damage per hit area for the big green monkey, any ideas on the mezz ball?

I'm not just doing this cos I'm being contrary, I want to be able to take this to the developers and point to these numbers and go, "This is what the players are asking for, these ranges, this level of healing, etc" and not just be another idea thread I happend to write before I became a professional.

[Towerblock]

Morti is 207. They should alter that to 201, quite honestly.

Add a new healpet pet around 215 or 216. The reason I say these levels is because even from an external standpoint, and considering they want to "buff" our healing ability a bit... lets take a look at raids. Specifically, enfs can buff up to quite a bit of HP. Offtanks such as soldiers + any high evade/DD prof take a somewhat better advantage. Main tanks, while customarily healed by "heal profs" sometimes you might not have the luxury of a full fledged and well geared doctor.

Putting morti on that enf isnt much of a gain. Putting a newer upgraded pet on them could create a much more efficient way of healing that 60-70k. Causing misc healprofs to be able to lay off, focusing on other players as well. This is just pure PVM,

In PVP, 210+ and morti suffers like no other creature in this game. It is a common recipient of death and doom. GTH, CC, you name it. An MP without that much personal healing, and with a incredibly long cast time just to bring back such a hideous victim back into the game... its a joke. The first time a soldier ripped morti a new one, I just let it die. I ended up recasting it in decon, because thats the only downtime that was available.

Secondly. Yidira is also suffering from much of the same problems. Its only defense is that some people believe that sometimes, its not really much of a threat. Technically, they aren't incorrect. So.. CC.. move onto a player they can actually perk.

UBT. Ugh.....

at 219 right now, and finishing up research... I have the whiner to look forward to. But do I? I am told its the only pet that in the event of a charm, its the only one that wont even be able to hurt us. In borealis, I watched a gimpy 215 Dshark kill Whiner in under 13 seconds.

I fully believe our weak points are our pets, healing, and personal damage. Some ways you can actually help our personal damage. It comes at a cost, but a crat or an engi need not to sacrifice anything vital to gain that advantage. We on the other hand, sacrifice vital defense. We really need to raise the bar on that.

[Flyingengi]

however I don't think more damage is the answer.

Exactly. I usually hit top 10 DD every raid on my mp back when Pande wasn't instanced and there where 50+ people. MPs do not lack damage, they are where I see they should be. We are a support profession, yet all of our support tools are way, way outdated. None of our support nanos have been upgraded since SL. We have the same crappy healpet, the same crappy debuffs, and moderately better damage.

What we need to look at is what is needed in teams now? Back in SL, it was all about damage because all mobs had nothing but huge HP and did alot of damage. Now, mobs are tricky and have procs and nanos to cast on teams that make them hard to beat. It's easy for teams to last a long time vs a boss as long as the team have the tools to disable/neutralize the bosses tricks. They have adds that can be calmed, etc. There is just nothing currently that would make somebody want an MP in their team. Only thing that they might want is CM and they can get that w/o teaming us and have it for 8 hours.

Make MPs better team support...give us something that teams will want.

[Poundtown]

Give us a 1hb weapon

AR:
100% TS
25% 1hb

Open up 1hb perkline letting us use AR to check evades if we have 1hb wielded or give us a new perkline to do some damage with.

Each one should give 150 evades and 5% reflects.

[Camar]

Camar, same question goes for you, what ranges would you like to see on 220 healpet, what damage per hit area for the big green monkey, any ideas on the mezz ball?

I'm not just doing this cos I'm being contrary, I want to be able to take this to the developers and point to these numbers and go, "This is what the players are asking for, these ranges, this level of healing, etc" and not just be another idea thread I happend to write before I became a professional.

I would like to see the cast-time reduced of Morti reduced to something like 0,5 secs or even less to speed up healing amount over time (with the recharge of 4,5 secs it is still a long enough time I would say). The range could be something like 1.5k-2k plus 5% of the health of your target. So if you are a normal 10k health toon, you would get healed 2k-2.5k every 5 seconds, or 27k per minute. This would roughly be on par with Touch of Kindness and about 75% of BoL (without any %heal, so real numbers would favor docs more).
With a 70k Enfo, this would heal for 5k-5,5k, or 63k per minute, on par with Blessing of Purity or Renewal of Being (assumed Nanoinit 2k, again no %heal, AggDef slider can change a lot here). So this is still far away of what docs can do, but you would at least see the enf's HP bar move.

The shorter cast time would also serve to reduce the effect of UBT, and to help with the "running away from Morti" problem that we sometimes face.

For the mezzball I would add some additional effects to the mezz that don't break 100% on attack. This could be something to help with the kiting problem, like a short root or snare, a blind (I believe this has been tried before, see Scream of Yidira), and something to help it become useful in PvP, like the chance for a short stun, or some nanodraining DoT, a mini NSD, a damage or init debuff,...
There are a lot of possibilities here that all fit into our existing toolset, and would make the mezzball more fun both in PvM and especially PvP. We could even have several different mezzballs for different situations, e.g. something like one offensive with mezz, stun and nanodrain, one defensive with debuffs for damage/inits/nanoskills.

[larzba77]

ok i didnt read all posts, so might be mentioned. But as i see it MPs are at the moment the least desirable prof to have in high lvl raids as we dont contribute with much at all. No dd, no debuff ( yeah we have nsd, but thats it). Meaning getting into raids and getting phatz is really hard. Have a 180 crat atm, gets more invites on him than my tl7 mp. So plz FC do something, i feel useless on my mp when comes to ccontribute on raids.

[Xtremtech]

I'm torn on how best to improve the contribution in PvM - whether that be raids or not.

Part of the difficulty is that on the whole debuffs are not great in PvM. In normal content, people will usually choose content that is easy enough to do without needing debuffs at all. In harder content, where there's usually careful organisation to ensure that a tank holds aggro, damage debuffs struggle to deliver well because of the order of application of Init debuffs, AC and Reflects.

Just in general, it's a tough thing to do in AO to design content that makes debuffs really useful.... but especially the kinds of debuffs associated with the MP. As a result, there are two things that regularly come up as suggestions to improve contribution:

Heal Pet improvement - because healing is an area that is a safe bet for being needed, being one of the holy trinity of roles. there are some difficulties in terms of balancing healing improvements across Raid/team/solo/PvP. The Static Heal + %age heal is probably the best idea I've come across.

The other one that comes up fairly often is %age damage debuffs. There are some serious issues in terms of balance with this too, because of the combination of UBT (which functions as a %age damage reduction) and %age Reflects etc.

It may well be that the balance changes that are being introduced in the coming months will have effects that change the difficulties mentioned above. Talk about Nanodelta nerfs might offer options in nano healing? Talk of shorter buff durations might bring options for MP debuffs to be staggered with other debuffs perhaps? But it has always been difficult to find ways to improve the support role for MPs other than increasing the heal.

Not an easy thing to overcome.

X

[Jihla]

Percentage debuff will be hard to balance because 24%+ reflect combined with UBT (or malisse for that matter) already is too much.

When you speak of "normal content" people choose the easy solution becuase the harder solutions are not worth it. That's why people killed tons of GREY aliens for easy axp, and do EASY missions for reasearch, because even easy missions rewards cap rank 10 research. But that's just poor design.

[Xtremtech]

Aye... that's what I said - I think.

One thing though... it's not just a question of poor design. It's a basic issue for nearly all MMOs. People choose the highest XP over time - which is nearly always a case of munching fast through stuff that is easy to kill. Additionally, where dying slows things down through XP loss, death penalties etc - players will avoid content with high risk too.

End result is that easy mobs with low risk are the XP content of choice... and that means that support functions (even good healing and tanking) are often not necessary or only rarely necessary. The exception can be support functions such as buffing damage (to increase speed of kill) and debuffs that increase speed of kill such as evade debuffs or damage reduction debuffs. But to be frank, in most chosen content, such buffs don't really make enough difference because the chosen mobs are so easy to beat without those buffs.

Some MMOs have tried to solve this by XP being largely generated by quest completion - not particularly by killing mobs. Even here though, a calculation is made as to which quests offer the best XP over time with lowest risk. Still it's more possible to build in a few more interesting and challenging encounters as part of the quest - thus giving support functions some kind of role for a few of the encounters.

AO tried to do this, to some extent, with the introduction of Team Mission XP bonus back before SL came out. The bonus at the end of the mission was a huge part of the overall XP gained... but as mentioned above, people still chose the really easy missions in order to be able to eat through them and get more Mission Bonuses over a given playing time with low risk.

It's a really thorny design issue for all MMOs and is rarely solved really well in any. The thing that really changes this kind of behaviour is only really good end-reward loot drops... but then that content is seen as loot content and not XP content and is treated differently anyway.

X

[Jihla]

Well, not to derail the discussion, but in the old days it was "ok, let's do a mission and get phat xp and a reward in the end" where today it's "ok, let's do a mission and get the reward in the end".

The reward has become the reason you do the mission, not a factor that determines wether you should do indoor or outdoors hunting.

But again, it's a different discussion.

[Poundtown]

Give us a 1hb weapon

AR:
100% TS
25% 1hb

Open up 1hb perkline letting us use AR to check evades if we have 1hb wielded or give us a new perkline to do some damage with.

Each one should give 150 evades and 5% reflects.

I still want that...

[Dancingrage]

THis is the last call for input before I unsticky the old wishlist/buglist threads and make up new ones.