Purpose and Function: Damage Professions

[-XeI20-]

A damage profession is a profession which specializes in performing damage within a team. This is their purpose. The manner in which they contribute. Yet the damage professions in AO, while specializing in performing damage as per their toolsets, can be od'd or close to od'd by certain professions which have supportive toolsets.

I believe such should not be the case. Shades, NTs, and MAs should not be getting od'd by two profession's which have the most, or some of the most, in demand supportive tools in the game.

Now, one can argue that Shades, NT's, and MAs have toolsets which are useful beyond what their main purpose is, performing damage. I will simply point out that the amount of usefullness these other aspects of their toolsets have pales in comparison to the supportive toolsets of Crats, and barring Ma's, to engis as well.

Shades in particular have an arguably useful toolset aside from their damage. We help evade tanks tank better, we can stun or decrease inits on a mob in a somewhat noticeable manner. Yet, unlike the professions which can od us, our damage is not split between ourselves and pets. It all comes from one source. As such many enfs will have serious difficutly keeping agg from a Shade running 12man/db buffs and +dmg team auras. We tank where we shouldn't be tanking. Where docs don't want us tanking.

Tank professions Tank. Healing professions Heal. CC professions perform CC. Damage professions excel at Dealing Damage.
The first and the last are not realized within AO yet. We Shades, and hopefully NTs and MA's soon as well, need detaunt tools. We as damage professions need to be the best at dealing damage. Noone heals better then a doc. Noone mezs or debuffs inits better then a crat. It would be a wonder thing if I could accurately state, noone does damage better then an nt or shade. Hopefully that statement can be true sometime in the future.

The purpose of a damage profession is clear, it's to perform and excel in performing damage. The actual function of this within AO differs drastically and serious consideration and action should be brought to bear upon this problem.

[Iamkama]

A damage profession is a profession which specializes in performing damage within a team. This is their purpose. The manner in which they contribute. Yet the damage professions in AO, while specializing in performing damage as per their toolsets, can be od'd or close to od'd by certain professions which have supportive toolsets.

I believe such should not be the case. Shades, NTs, and MAs should not be getting od'd by two profession's which have the most, or some of the most, in demand supportive tools in the game.

Now, one can argue that Shades, NT's, and MAs have toolsets which are useful beyond what their main purpose is, performing damage. I will simply point out that the amount of usefullness these other aspects of their toolsets have pales in comparison to the supportive toolsets of Crats, and barring Ma's, to engis as well.

Shades in particular have an arguably useful toolset aside from their damage. We help evade tanks tank better, we can stun or decrease inits on a mob in a somewhat noticeable manner. Yet, unlike the professions which can od us, our damage is not split between ourselves and pets. It all comes from one source. As such many enfs will have serious difficutly keeping agg from a Shade running 12man/db buffs and +dmg team auras. We tank where we shouldn't be tanking. Where docs don't want us tanking.

Tank professions Tank. Healing professions Heal. CC professions perform CC. Damage professions excel at Dealing Damage.
The first and the last are not realized within AO yet. We Shades, and hopefully NTs and MA's soon as well, need detaunt tools. We as damage professions need to be the best at dealing damage. Noone heals better then a doc. Noone mezs or debuffs inits better then a crat. It would be a wonder thing if I could accurately state, noone does damage better then an nt or shade. Hopefully that statement can be true sometime in the future.

The purpose of a damage profession is clear, it's to perform and excel in performing damage. The actual function of this within AO differs drastically and serious consideration and action should be brought to bear upon this problem.

I see your point and agree with it. Tanks should only be tanking, DD should only be doing DD...etc etc etc.

But, in a game with so many options, it's kinda hard to make it so one type of profession is supposed to do one thing. I believe that's where Cookie Cutter term comes to mind.

But we'll see with the prof balancing

[navycut]

I see your point and agree with it. Tanks should only be tanking, DD should only be doing DD...etc etc etc.

But, in a game with so many options, it's kinda hard to make it so one type of profession is supposed to do one thing. I believe that's where Cookie Cutter term comes to mind.

But we'll see with the prof balancing

Well see, it's not that it's about making specific profs do one thing and one thing only, MAs, shades can tank for example but they don't do it even nearly as well as an enf or sold. This is the point really, why should non dd professions do similar or even more dmg than profs designed for DD?

Shade, MA, NT and maybe agents should be the top DD by a significant margin. This is not really the case atm.

[Iamkama]

Well see, it's not that it's about making specific profs do one thing and one thing only, MAs, shades can tank for example but they don't do it even nearly as well as an enf or sold. This is the point really, why should non dd professions do similar or even more dmg than profs designed for DD?

Shade, MA, NT and maybe agents should be the top DD by a significant margin. This is not really the case atm.

I see what you mean.

Then for example, enfs and solds need to have their dd reduced some and have better aggro tools (mongo is nice, but would like to see more single taunts for tough situations where mongo would only make things worse) for them.

Then MA's, NT's, and Shades would be able to piss out damage and not worry so much about tanking.

Am I correct on where your going with this?

[Kazeran]

To have more damage you need less survivability and every DD prof has a fair amount of survivability already. Yes there are some profs who can just mow down said DD prof and make their survival tools meaningless but every prof has that problem.

AO isnt made for just 1 said prof to do only 1 said thing. I would hate to see it be turned into that as well. However their should be sacrifices if one is to be more then optimal at one thing. An example (because its the prof i play) is a doc. Pure DD doctors have to give up nano skills, nano pool, ND, heal eff. and tons of HP to get all the damage they can. In turn for getting all the damage they can they have given up a good amount of their survivability. A pure support doc who focuses largely on healing will have the lowest DD of every prof. However in turn for doing such crap damage they will have better survivability then a DD doc. Then there are the doctors who are in the middle. They have good survivability and ok damage but they don't excel at either.

Every prof should have a choice to go fully offensive, fully defensive, or a balanced mix of both and anything in-between. However to be on one side of the scale you should have to give up more of the other side. Thats the problem with everyone though, they don't want to give up everything they have already they just want more. To balance it though everything has to be taken into consideration. Every form of defense a said prof has, to every forum of offense (so long as they are all within a reasonable standpoint) has to be looked at before something is changed otherwise we end up with retarded mistakes such as GTH, BR, nemesis nanos, aoe fears ect..

TL;DR You have to make sacrifices to get what you want, FC needs to make it a hard choice to choose between things w/o locking them. They still need to give us the freedom to choose what we want to do with out toons but they need to make us make choices and sacrifices between highly defined(not sure of a better word to use) setups.

[-XeI20-]

Yet, in any and all variable setups a doctor will always heal better then any other profession. They are a healing profession. Shades are a damage profession. Thus, in order for their function to be as their purpose, they must be the best damage dealer possible within any setup.

My suggestion is not going to cause cookie cutter. It's going to define what a profession does. With my intent being similar to how Kazeran has discussed how a profession functions within AO. Options to perform with varying effectiveness within certain criteria. I'm all for Shades giving up damage to have the ability to tank well. They should however still do more damage then non-damage profession while in that tank setup.

[navycut]

To have more damage you need less survivability and every DD prof has a fair amount of survivability already. Yes there are some profs who can just mow down said DD prof and make their survival tools meaningless but every prof has that problem.

AO isnt made for just 1 said prof to do only 1 said thing. I would hate to see it be turned into that as well. However their should be sacrifices if one is to be more then optimal at one thing. An example (because its the prof i play) is a doc. Pure DD doctors have to give up nano skills, nano pool, ND, heal eff. and tons of HP to get all the damage they can. In turn for getting all the damage they can they have given up a good amount of their survivability. A pure support doc who focuses largely on healing will have the lowest DD of every prof. However in turn for doing such crap damage they will have better survivability then a DD doc. Then there are the doctors who are in the middle. They have good survivability and ok damage but they don't excel at either.

Every prof should have a choice to go fully offensive, fully defensive, or a balanced mix of both and anything in-between. However to be on one side of the scale you should have to give up more of the other side. Thats the problem with everyone though, they don't want to give up everything they have already they just want more. To balance it though everything has to be taken into consideration. Every form of defense a said prof has, to every forum of offense (so long as they are all within a reasonable standpoint) has to be looked at before something is changed otherwise we end up with retarded mistakes such as GTH, BR, nemesis nanos, aoe fears ect..

TL;DR You have to make sacrifices to get what you want, FC needs to make it a hard choice to choose between things w/o locking them. They still need to give us the freedom of choose what we want to do with out toons but they need to make us make choice and sacrifices between highly defined(not sure of a better word to use) setups.

But yet look at crats, they have excellent damage, excellent cc, excellent soloing ability, excellent debuffing ability (in pvm)

[Kazeran]

Yet, in any and all variable setups a doctor will always heal better then any other profession. They are a healing profession. Shades are a damage profession. Thus, in order for their function to be as their purpose, they must be the best damage dealer possible within any setup.

My suggestion is not going to cause cookie cutter. It's going to define what a profession does. With my intent being similar to how Kazeran has discussed how a profession functions within AO. Options to perform with varying effectiveness within certain criteria. I'm all for Shades giving up damage to have the ability to tank well. They should however still do more damage then non-damage profession while in that tank setup.

Problem with giving more damage in a pvm situation is that the same damage is transfered to pvp in which case shades already do huge amounts of damage (yes yes if you can perk, but thats another problem). Have to think hard and outside the box with alternative ways of boosting a said profs main ability without overpowering them and without nerfing their secondary abilities as well.

But yet look at crats, they have excellent damage, excellent cc, excellent soloing ability, excellent debuffing ability (in pvm)

I said how i believe it should be, not how it currently is

[-XeI20-]

Problem with giving more damage in a pvm situation is that the same damage is transfered to pvp in which case shades already do huge amounts of damage (yes yes if you can perk, but thats another problem). Have to think hard and outside the box with alternative ways of boosting a said profs main ability without overpowering them and without nerfing their secondary abilities as well.

Can't FC change dmg of perks or proc attacks to have a target=npc value or something so it doesn't interfere with PvP? If so adding this to our dmg proc and giving it a 10-15k dmg with 100k detaunt would work. Or perhaps even just changing the nanodmg of the dots on SP to be far more significant in PvM (they can change the values for PvP I believe as they've proposed a change to them in perk documentation already). Some scaling to them as well so that they wouldn't be OP at lower tl's.

Personally I think changes should start with +dmg and +crit, along with better perks in the SR line. If someone did decide to get this for PvP, they'd not have SP/CiB. So, -360 aao or -300 aad and -crit decrease.

[Kazeran]

I am not use if they can or not. It would be best to bug your new professional about it and have him talk to the devs about ways to boost pvm damage without being overpowered in pvp.

[Darkkblood]

I am not use if they can or not. It would be best to bug your new professional about it and have him talk to the devs about ways to boost pvm damage without being overpowered in pvp.

They can I know this because if you look at the balance documentation they already have perks in there that have different effects in pvp then in pvm. An example would be in the ADV perks go to Outdoorsman look at the Stoneworks perk. there is an AOE root it lasts 5 seconds in pvp and 25 in pvm.

[SSK]

But yet look at crats, they have excellent damage OR excellent cc OR excellent soloing ability OR excellent debuffing ability (in pvm)

Fixed a bit for you.

Definition as DD is so wrong. Everyone can be doing decent damage if they choose to and sacrifice everything else for that goal. For ones it's easier for rest it's harder. Also who said shades should be top DD in game? They are sneaky assassins and should deal big burst of dmg over short time, not to push constant high dmg like there's no tomorrow. Also if you so want to define all professions with certain purpose, don't cry about your defense if you take position of DD. "Aww CC profession rooted me! how can it be, someone else is doing it's work! i should be immune and just do DD "

[Philty]

I will simply point out that the amount of usefullness these other aspects of their toolsets have pales in comparison to the supportive toolsets of Crats, and barring Ma's, to engis as well.

I would like to ask you to speak some more about engi supportive tools, I am waiting for some amusement.
By your measures is engi clear, pure damage profession. Engis have by far less these tools than NTs mentioned as damage class. MAs are on par with engis and only shades are maybe more focused on dmg issues. I am wondering where you see for example advys, as a secondary healers?? Give me a break...

Overall I do not like your idea mate. Sentencing each profession to one particular role is something I do not want to see in AO. Enjoy variety, push characters to boundaries, this is one of key factors of replayability of this game.

[navycut]

Fixed a bit for you.

Definition as DD is so wrong. Everyone can be doing decent damage if they choose to and sacrifice everything else for that goal. For ones it's easier for rest it's harder. Also who said shades should be top DD in game? They are sneaky assassins and should deal big burst of dmg over short time, not to push constant high dmg like there's no tomorrow. Also if you so want to define all professions with certain purpose, don't cry about your defense if you take position of DD. "Aww CC profession rooted me! how can it be, someone else is doing it's work! i should be immune and just do DD "

And here we have a crat defending the OPness of crats in pvm. Nice.

Look, you can be in whatever the hell setup you want, you WILL HAVE:

LMN, SL calms, RK calms SL roots, RK roots, red tapes, malaise, carlo, ninja, your own damage so make sense next time.

Crats are to pvm what ranged advs are to pvp.

[SSK]

And here we have a crat defending the OPness of crats in pvm. Nice.

I'm not defending anything, but shade tears tastes so good.

Look, you can be in whatever the hell setup you want, you WILL HAVE:

LMN, SL calms, RK calms SL roots, RK roots, red tapes, malaise, carlo, ninja, your own damage so make sense next time.

I dmg things to death with almighty calms and co. Try to make sense yourself next time. Carlo, ninja and personal damage alone if you aren't set for damage whoring will never OD shade.

Crats are to pvm what ranged advs are to pvp.

Did you mean docs, sols and enfs here?

[MyGift]

A damage profession is a profession which specializes in performing damage within a team. This is their purpose. The manner in which they contribute. Yet the damage professions in AO, while specializing in performing damage as per their toolsets, can be od'd or close to od'd by certain professions which have supportive toolsets.

I believe such should not be the case. Shades, NTs, and MAs should not be getting od'd by two profession's which have the most, or some of the most, in demand supportive tools in the game.

Now, one can argue that Shades, NT's, and MAs have toolsets which are useful beyond what their main purpose is, performing damage. I will simply point out that the amount of usefullness these other aspects of their toolsets have pales in comparison to the supportive toolsets of Crats, and barring Ma's, to engis as well.

Shades in particular have an arguably useful toolset aside from their damage. We help evade tanks tank better, we can stun or decrease inits on a mob in a somewhat noticeable manner. Yet, unlike the professions which can od us, our damage is not split between ourselves and pets. It all comes from one source. As such many enfs will have serious difficutly keeping agg from a Shade running 12man/db buffs and +dmg team auras. We tank where we shouldn't be tanking. Where docs don't want us tanking.

Tank professions Tank. Healing professions Heal. CC professions perform CC. Damage professions excel at Dealing Damage.
The first and the last are not realized within AO yet. We Shades, and hopefully NTs and MA's soon as well, need detaunt tools. We as damage professions need to be the best at dealing damage. Noone heals better then a doc. Noone mezs or debuffs inits better then a crat. It would be a wonder thing if I could accurately state, noone does damage better then an nt or shade. Hopefully that statement can be true sometime in the future.

The purpose of a damage profession is clear, it's to perform and excel in performing damage. The actual function of this within AO differs drastically and serious consideration and action should be brought to bear upon this problem.

As much as ur right ill have to completely disagree with u :/


One of the reasons i play AO is cause im sick of healer/tank/DD or priest/warrior/rogue "classes" ...If u want that play WOW/GW or other thousands MMOs made on same way where u can take one of those rolls and wont do anything else except DD,Heal or tanking depending on ur pick.

Beauty of AO is that u can do anything with ur profession and be crazy DD if u wish even if ur crat or engi or whateva...Thing is that to be great DD with for example agent u will go full crit setup and lose alot of HP/def and stuff and u will never get near shade or MA which are completely focused on defense. Also full DD geared engi=MA/Shade in average gear but full DD geared engi <<<<<< Full DD geared MA/shade and engi or crat or anything else will never OD MA/Shade in DD setup.


so even tho i see ur point i dont think anyone will be able to OD good MA/Shade and u will see that when ppl seek for DD its always MA/Shade/Solja on 1st place...

[Jjin]

I like the point about taunts/detaunts. Enfs and Sols should have much better single target taunts and shades/MAs/NTs should have much better single target detaunts.

[-XeI20-]

I would like to ask you to speak some more about engi supportive tools, I am waiting for some amusement.
By your measures is engi clear, pure damage profession. Engis have by far less these tools than NTs mentioned as damage class. MAs are on par with engis and only shades are maybe more focused on dmg issues. I am wondering where you see for example advys, as a secondary healers?? Give me a break...

Overall I do not like your idea mate. Sentencing each profession to one particular role is something I do not want to see in AO. Enjoy variety, push characters to boundaries, this is one of key factors of replayability of this game.

Reflects are one of the most in-demand supportive tools there are. Two professions have them, soldiers and engis. When one can't find a soldier they get an engi. The engi blind is nothing to scoff at either. Reflects are far more useful then say, drains which only affect one mob, or mezs which won't mez half of anything people want mezed.

As to sentencing each prof to one particular role...I never in any way suggested that only damage professions be able to produce high end damage. I however expressed that damage professions should be the best at what they're designed to do, deal damage. In the same way that docs are the best healers, in the way that enfos are the best tanks, Shades and Nts should be the best damage dealers.

Your pretense that if NTs and Shades suddenly became the undisputed damage dealers of AO would suddenly cookie cutter and lock every other prof into some particular role is ludicrous. By such a measure there should be profs which 'can' heal better then docs. By your measure there should be profs which can aoe taunt better then an enf.

Professions designed to perform a function, should be able to perform that function heads and tails above any other profession. This does not mean they should be the only ones able to specialize, it merely means they are the ones who excel within that specialization.

[Amickson]

The specialization is what killing AO. Nothing compare in tanking abilities to enf and nobody heals like doctor. We got several DD profs, but only 1 healing and 1 tanking. There's not enough roles for 14 professions and even then some hugely excel over all others.

[-XeI20-]

As much as ur right ill have to completely disagree with u :/


One of the reasons i play AO is cause im sick of healer/tank/DD or priest/warrior/rogue "classes" ...If u want that play WOW/GW or other thousands MMOs made on same way where u can take one of those rolls and wont do anything else except DD,Heal or tanking depending on ur pick.

I would very much be interested in having it explained as to how nts and Shades being undisputed top damage profs would cause the variety of AO to become less. In one of my previous posts I voiced the opinion that a Shade would lose the ability to tank well to achieve sick dmg. Currently if a Shade does take measures to achieve the best damage possible this occurs. The difference with my suggestion taking place is that instead of getting agg and having crappy tanking abilities, a Shade would now have detaunts and be able to function properly.

Shades are currently defined as damage dealer which, if they use their toolset to it's fullest, steal agg away from a prof which is designed to hold agg regardless of what that enforcer does. This is done within a 'tank' setup. The idea of going all out damage currently is really a non-option. Detaunts are needed. I also believe that forgoing the ability to tank well, and to some degree solo, should be rewarded with a large increase in damage which would have a similar value such as being able to obtain 60k hp, or being able to heal for 100k.

No other prof can get close to 60k hp, no other prof can heal anywhere near 100k. Thus, no other prof should be able to achieve anything near nt or shade damage. For this to be realized Shades will need detaunts. Having working detaunts will allow shades to choose whether or not to tank without having to minimize the use of their toolset. This would enable enforcers, sols, keepers, advs, etc to have the capacity to tank. An increase in variety of the professions which would be able to tank.

Our toolset is damage. We should be able to use and excel in using our toolset without negating the toolsets of others. If anything my suggestion would increase the variety of Shade setups. An all out damage setup would not only be viable, but allow the Shade to perform as it was designed to(and at one point in time actually functioned). To deal out an enormous amount of damage far above that of the capabilities of other profs.