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Thread: Late-week update on LLTS

  1. #81
    Originally posted by Othgar
    IMHO.. all that needs to be done is make the MA buffs NOT stack with the old style scopes.

    Of course you would need to provide several IP reset points to players to repair this but that should be easy for you...

    After these changes are made you can then make the old style scopes drop in game without fear of any class being overpowered with them.

    Just my two credits...
    i can't get behind this for one simple reason, it cuts deeply into the forte of the MA, critting, completely self buffed MA's have a base 24% to crit, and most other classes have +0%.

    What justifies other classes jumping to +15% to crit while MA's remain at 24%? Why should ever other profession in the game get the equal of a LMA buff for a one time IP investment while MA's biggest strength is eroded to near meainglessnees?

    This is not parity, this is like saying give every profession a 60% heal on the same recycle timers as the doc's "complete" heal. Oh and docs get a 30% on top the max heal for complete heal. ( since you didn't include VE's in that statment ).

    As you stack in more outside crit buffs those precentages get even worse.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 21:31:26.

  2. #82
    Originally posted by Cheetra


    i can't get behind this for one simple reason, it cuts deeply into the forte of the MA, critting, completely self buffed MA's have a base 24% to crit, and most other classes have +0%.

    What justifies other classes jumping to +15% to crit while MA's remain at 24%? Why should ever other profession in the game get the equal of a LMA buff for a one time IP investment while MA's biggest strength is eroded to near meainglessnees?

    This is not parity, this is like saying give every profession a 60% heal on the same recycle timers as the doc's "complete" heal.
    I think you're over simplifying here... You have to take into concideration the huge debuff to inits, the huge IP investment that anyone who uses an old scope must make as well as the 9% crit bonus the MA's will have over others anyway.

    Not to mention I said the OLD Scopes so an MA could use one of the new ones for an additional +8% as well.

    I still think its the fairest solution but thats just me.

    BTW: I have LvL 170+ toons in various flavors, MA, AGENT, SOLDIER, ENGIE, TRADER... Soooo I feel like I am fairly unbiased.
    Othgar
    Omni-Tek Master Assassin
    Skitch
    Omni-Tek NT (Testlive)

  3. #83

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alo

    Originally posted by Cheetra


    i didnt' say anything about reducing MA self crit buffs. I didn't say it for a reason. I did mention limiting to MA fists, ma weapons, and bows.

    That solves the issue of weapons that where never intended to be in MA hands critting like mad.
    As a "fix" for wanting crits nerfed across the board, you suggested removing MoP and leave the LLTS alone. This is a 7% crit reduction for everyone except MAs. Without adding in the adjustments to the self-only crit buffs, this argument is entirely "nerf everyone else but me."

    This has nothing to do with MAs using non-MA weapons. That's a bone you threw out, intentionally or not, to make it seem like you are conceding something.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  4. #84

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alo

    Originally posted by aaronb


    As a "fix" for wanting crits nerfed across the board, you suggested removing MoP and leave the LLTS alone. This is a 7% crit reduction for everyone except MAs. Without adding in the adjustments to the self-only crit buffs, this argument is entirely "nerf everyone else but me."

    This has nothing to do with MAs using non-MA weapons. That's a bone you threw out, intentionally or not, to make it seem like you are conceding something.
    nope, i'm agreeing that some weapons ( ala river6 ) likely shouldn't bein the hands of a MA, either should a Beam IMO ( which i stated previously ).

    MA weapons are balanced for use by a profession that is intended to crit.

    Do you honestly think the devlopers put weapons into the hands of MA's they intended to crit at the same rate as other professions? okay - given track record that might be valid but we'd need confirmation on that, from what I've seen, MA's using MA weapons isn't the problem, it's MA's using things that the developers never considered going wit the class like shotties, River6, beams etc that's the problem - all of these have much higher crit damage then do items normall thought of as MA weapons.

    Think of it more like i'm trying to throw every solider, enforcer, adventurer, and any one else using a weapon a bone, in that instead of the item they carry with them 24-7 being nerfed, the buff that they only have occasionally be nerfed instead.

    I also mentioned having the higher ql VE's drop, which will in take some time to hit ( 250 mission aren't a cake walk ever ), and the 250 VE would eventually replace llts as it's got lower init penalties.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 21:49:57.

  5. #85
    Originally posted by Cheetra


    i can't get behind this for one simple reason, it cuts deeply into the forte of the MA, critting, completely self buffed MA's have a base 24% to crit, and most other classes have +0%.

    What justifies other classes jumping to +15% to crit while MA's remain at 24%? Why should ever other profession in the game get the equal of a LMA buff for a one time IP investment while MA's biggest strength is eroded to near meainglessnees?

    This is not parity, this is like saying give every profession a 60% heal on the same recycle timers as the doc's "complete" heal. Oh and docs get a 30% on top the max heal for complete heal. ( since you didn't include VE's in that statment ).

    As you stack in more outside crit buffs those precentages get even worse.
    No, this argument won't hold water. Until relatively recently, MA crit buffs were NOT self-only, meaning that we could obtain the exact same critical chance that you could. During this same time period, the LLTS was not only a drop item, but could be purchased in shops. So we had the MA crit buffs, which were excessive for ranged weapon users, and we had the LLTS, which was (and still is) excessive for melee users. The MA crit buffs were made self-only (and should have been made MA/bow-only as well), and now it appears that the LLTS is going to be made ranged-only. The only real problem I see here is that the LLTS no longer drops. But we have the VE... perhaps it should be made ranged-only as well.

    So we have MAs with their superior crit buffs with no penalties aside from the NCU required, and we have ranged weapon users with their scopes with lower crit percentages and hefty penalties. The only people I see truly getting hurt here are the non-MA melee users.

    If MAs aren't "powerful" enough without the scopes, then maybe MAs need to have higher damage output. Though honestly, I find this a little hard to swallow based on my experiences.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  6. #86

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the

    Originally posted by Cheetra

    Think of it more like i'm trying to throw every solider, enforcer, adventurer, and any one else using a weapon a bone, in that instead of the item they carry with them 24-7 being nerfed, the buff that they only have occasionally be nerfed instead.
    No, you're trying to redirect a nerf targetted at you toward everyone else and completely evading it yourself. I think Arsiine's post earlier was a pretty accurate assessment of what Funcom's point of view is here.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  7. #87
    I hate it. Worse than just making the existing LLTS have a reduced crit but additional positive modifiers.

    It screws over too many professions who aren't cookie cutter. But, that seems to be what you want. Cookie cutter characters.

    How does any other profession besides Martial Artist that punches with their fists get damage now? I personally have a couple characters (Enforcer, MP) who decided to punch with their fists and use scopes to increase their accuracy.

    Will you be screwing with my sword-wielding MA as well?

    I much prefer if you don't do anything to any scope that has 8% or less crit modifier. Leave them as they are and do whatever Nerf you are going to do to the 9% and up ELLTS's.

    It's getting more and more disconcerting to try to do anything that isn't cookie-cutter. If I wanted a game where every character I had was exactly like every other character, I'd go play an FPS.

    But, that's just me. I despise a game that 'forces' you to be cookie cutter playing from a template. Not too much fun in that. All you have to do is level.

  8. #88
    Originally posted by aaronb


    No, this argument won't hold water. Until relatively recently, MA crit buffs were NOT self-only, meaning that we could obtain the exact same critical chance that you could. During this same time period, the LLTS was not only a drop item, but could be purchased in shops. So we had the MA crit buffs, which were excessive for ranged weapon users, and we had the LLTS, which was (and still is) excessive for melee users. The MA crit buffs were made self-only (and should have been made MA/bow-only as well), and now it appears that the LLTS is going to be made ranged-only. The only real problem I see here is that the LLTS no longer drops. But we have the VE... perhaps it should be made ranged-only as well.

    So we have MAs with their superior crit buffs with no penalties aside from the NCU required, and we have ranged weapon users with their scopes with lower crit percentages and hefty penalties. The only people I see truly getting hurt here are the non-MA melee users.

    If MAs aren't "powerful" enough without the scopes, then maybe MAs need to have higher damage output. Though honestly, I find this a little hard to swallow based on my experiences.
    what i dont' think you're taking into account is that your experience is most likely with Ma's that are running a LLTS or VE.

    I have no beef with restricting ma's crit buffs to ma fist, me weapons and bows only, none at all.

    But the notion that others should have access to an item for + crit that MA's don't does indeed erode the strenght of the profession, a lot.

    The other option as I see it this: remove all + crit items from the game period, then the profession will balanced in terms of crit's and the professions that are supposed to get them will while others don't, of course is extreme and would greatly upset a LOT of people.

    My point is this: MA's using ma weapons isn't the issue ( pretty certain on this one or why would they have gone to the effect of putting them in game at all, because they wheren't for a lot time ), We have a total 7% they want to knock off every ones % to crit, would you rather A) have a +15% scope that's always on and have to see agents, adv, and a crat for better crit over that or B) have an 8% scope and have to add in a MA in oder to get a better crit chance?


    one more time:
    a) 15% crit you carry on you

    b) 8% you carry on you.


    edit: you know.. i actually don't care if MA self crits effect bows, as that only effects pvp, which is a pretty small portion of AO over all.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 22:05:39.

  9. #89

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the

    Originally posted by aaronb


    No, you're trying to redirect a nerf targetted at you toward everyone else and completely evading it yourself. I think Arsiine's post earlier was a pretty accurate assessment of what Funcom's point of view is here.
    Aaronb, if you wish to read my mind by all means tell me what i'm wearing, if not please accept i am in fact looking for a better solution to this.

  10. #90
    Originally posted by Cheetra

    I also mentioned having the higher ql VE's drop, which will in take some time to hit ( 250 mission aren't a cake walk ever ), and the 250 VE would eventually replace llts as it's got lower init penalties.
    I can blitz 15-20 of these an hour with pretty much zero risk. It's easier to get these than it is to blitz QL200 because of a) level pull restrictions and b) there are a lot of possible QL200 mission rewards.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  11. #91
    Originally posted by aaronb


    I can blitz 15-20 of these an hour with pretty much zero risk. It's easier to get these than it is to blitz QL200 because of a) level pull restrictions and b) there are a lot of possible QL200 mission rewards.
    okay for us non mission blitzing types it would take time to get, that better?

    btw is that vote for or against?

  12. #92
    Originally posted by Cheetra


    Aaronb, if you wish to read my mind by all means tell me what i'm wearing, if not please accept i am in fact looking for a better solution to this.
    If you are really looking for a better solution, then step outside of the MA perspective. Everything you have said so far is so grossly MA-biased that it can only be interpreted as a self-defense reaction.

    You have stated that you think that removing the mark line would be balancing, where doing so would nerf every other profession's crit chance by 7% while not touching your own. MAs are practically unstoppable right now and you are asking for everyone else to be reduced. How can you possibly view this as being balancing?
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  13. #93
    Originally posted by Cheetra


    okay for us non mission blitzing types it would take time to get, that better?

    btw is that vote for or against?
    You have green evades and runspeed. If anything, blitzing would be easier for you than for me.

    And that's not a vote either way, just pointing out that getting any mission item in this game is really pretty easy.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  14. #94
    MoP melee only? /shrug
    /DaveDread (D.A.V.E.D.R.E.A.D.: Digital Artificial Violence and Exploration Device/Replicant Engineered for Assassination and Destruction mohahaha)

    200 Opifex Clanner Gimp - Dinged in Style! (dimached a Virulent Minibull) Finally got my head straight, nothing like a goat helmet to get you in shape again. Oh, and those marks on my forehead (yah, still visible through the helmet, duh)... It was a Motorcycle baby. Really. Ran me over in West Athens while I was working on my tan. Think I look bad? You should see the biker.

  15. #95
    "nerf every other profession's crit chance by 7%"

    That would be true if they put LLTS back in the shops. Otherwise it is a blatantly erroneous statement.

    If they put the scopes back in the shop, then Nerfing in this manner would be acceptable. Otherwise what Cz suggested in the initial post screws over too many interesting people.

    I'm sick to death of having the playerbase funneled through some sort of Vision.

    The problem with the scopes was Crit% according to the Dev's. Let's not make this Nerf anymore less palatable by adding in professional balance to the Nerf. They want less Crits. Then let them reduce the Crits. Makes sense to me.

    Now, if they reduce Crits, then they ought to add something to make up for it. Add something to the LLTS to ease the pain of the lost Crits. I simply can't see borking over people like Xtremetech (MA MP) or any of the poor Engineers who finally get to enjoy Slayerdroid Transference.

    This is a HUGE change to the game versus simply Nerfing the few 9%+ scopes in the hands of the players. HUGE. I can't see screwing people who don't even have 9%+ scopes for the sake of those few.

  16. #96
    Originally posted by aaronb


    If you are really looking for a better solution, then step outside of the MA perspective. Everything you have said so far is so grossly MA-biased that it can only be interpreted as a self-defense reaction.

    You have stated that you think that removing the mark line would be balancing, where doing so would nerf every other profession's crit chance by 7% while not touching your own. MAs are practically unstoppable right now and you are asking for everyone else to be reduced. How can you possibly view this as being balancing?
    I think your perspective i pretty colored here, i'm far from unstopable. Just ask that RM torpedoe that kicked my hinny the other day while my doc slacked on heals.

    I think i'm trying to come up with something that gives everyone something they dont' have now. Namely a +% you can carry around with that goes up to 15%.

    One that everybody have a chance to get. Why everyone? Simple benefits all.

    I choose MoP because it's the to crit program closest to the % value, not because it's MA based.

    I dont' see mentioning the effect on agents either, as they would retrain their current self bugged to crit bonuses.

    Look take a deep breath, and realize that i'm actually trying to come up with something more feasible for every one.

    Okay i think i see what you're driving at here, how about this:
    Take the shot = target can not be MA ( 4% )
    Cali's cat form ( other )= Target can not be MA ( 1% )
    and crat speechs not working on MA's either ( 2% )

    That work for ya?

  17. #97
    Originally posted by Cheetra


    what i dont' think you're taking into account is that your experience is most likely with Ma's that are running a LLTS or VE.

    I have no beef with restricting ma's crit buffs to ma fist, me weapons and bows only, none at all.

    But the notion that others should have access to an item for + crit that MA's don't does indeed erode the strenght of the profession, a lot.

    The other option as I see it this: remove all + crit items from the game period, then the profession will balanced in terms of crit's and the professions that are supposed to get them will while others don't, of course is extreme and would greatly upset a LOT of people.

    My point is this: MA's using ma weapons isn't the issue ( pretty certain on this one or why would they have gone to the effect of putting them in game at all, because they wheren't for a lot time ), We have a total 7% they want to knock off every ones % to crit, would you rather A) have a +15% scope that's always on and have to see agents, adv, and a crat for better crit over that or B) have an 8% scope and have to add in a MA in oder to get a better crit chance?


    one more time:
    a) 15% crit you carry on you

    b) 8% you carry on you.


    edit: you know.. i actually don't care if MA self crits effect bows, as that only effects pvp, which is a pretty small portion of AO over all.
    Yes, I am taking into account that I team with MAs using scopes. And frankly, I don't think they need them to clean house. If they do, fine, remove the scopes for MAs and increase their damage a bit more.

    What you are missing here is the first post in this thread. Go back and read it if you think they are looking to reduce crits across the board. And then read through a bit and find Arsiine's post, which I think is a pretty accurate summation.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  18. #98
    Originally posted by Bionitrous
    "nerf every other profession's crit chance by 7%"

    That would be true if they put LLTS back in the shops. Otherwise it is a blatantly erroneous statement.

    If they put the scopes back in the shop, then Nerfing in this manner would be acceptable. Otherwise what Cz suggested in the initial post screws over too many interesting people.

    I'm sick to death of having the playerbase funneled through some sort of Vision.

    The problem with the scopes was Crit% according to the Dev's. Let's not make this Nerf anymore less palatable by adding in professional balance to the Nerf. They want less Crits. Then let them reduce the Crits. Makes sense to me.

    Now, if they reduce Crits, then they ought to add something to make up for it. Add something to the LLTS to ease the pain of the lost Crits. I simply can't see borking over people like Xtremetech (MA MP) or any of the poor Engineers who finally get to enjoy Slayerdroid Transference.

    This is a HUGE change to the game versus simply Nerfing the few 9%+ scopes in the hands of the players. HUGE. I can't see screwing people who don't even have 9%+ scopes for the sake of those few.
    part of the suggestion was making the high end VE's avaliable, but making the LLTS available again too would solve the problem also.

    That's a change that would actually benefit more people more of the time.


    aaronb,
    We cross posted look up a bit and gimme thoughts.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 22:21:55.

  19. #99
    Originally posted by Cheetra

    I think your perspective i pretty colored here, i'm far from unstopable. Just ask that RM torpedoe that kicked my hinny the other day while my doc slacked on heals.


    RMs are pretty brutal to everyone

    But on a typical QL190ish mission, MAs cut through vets like they were greys.


    I think i'm trying to come up with something that gives everyone something they dont' have now. Namely a +% you can carry around with that goes up to 15%.

    One that everybody have a chance to get. Why everyone? Simple benefits all.


    This doesn't address the issue Funcom is facing as per the first message in this thread.


    I choose MoP because it's the to crit program closest to the % value, not because it's MA based.


    MoP isn't used by MAs, it's used by everyone else. Removing it has no effect on MAs outside of making them less desireable for teams. But for the rest of us, losing MoP would be quite painful.


    I dont' see mentioning the effect on agents either, as they would retrain their current self bugged to crit bonuses.


    I don't really see any problems with agents at the moment. Their crit buffs seem to be doing okay for them and they aren't reaching insanely high crit chances for the entire duration of their game time.


    Look take a deep breath, and realize that i'm actually trying to come up with something more feasible for every one.

    Okay i think i see what you're driving at here, how about this:
    Take the shot = target can not be MA ( 4% )
    Cali's cat form ( other )= Target can not be MA ( 1% )
    and crat speechs not working on MA's either ( 2% )

    That work for ya?


    These buffs aren't the problem. The problem that Funcom is trying to fix is UVC + ELLTS. This is pretty clear to me based on Cz's post.

    I'm not going after MAs here. Funcom is going after you and I'm purely trying to keep an MA nerf from bleeding over into the rest of us and making our crit-dependant weapons no longer viable.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  20. #100
    Originally posted by Cheetra

    aaronb,
    We cross posted look up a bit and gimme thoughts.
    Yeah, the problem with having two conversations at once
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

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