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Thread: Late-week update on LLTS

  1. #41
    As an added note, I'm not saying that I think MAs or enforcers should be nerfed.

    What I want is to be left the hell alone. Don't nerf the LLTS, don't nerf MA's, don't nerf enforcers. Just leave us alone. Fix engineers and the others that need a fix, but please just leave the rest of us alone.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  2. #42
    Originally posted by Cheetra
    after living as a master of min damage for a year i'm more willing to see everyone else have to deal with being a master o' min damage to get the idiots that can't see what they are asking for to open their eyes, though in truth i doubt even that would help.
    Great. Not only in this post did you call everybody an idiot, but you blatantly told everybody that you want them to be nerfed because you were nerfed at one point.

    Keep it constructive.

  3. #43
    Originally posted by aaronb
    As an added note, I'm not saying that I think MAs or enforcers should be nerfed.

    What I want is to be left the hell alone. Don't nerf the LLTS, don't nerf MA's, don't nerf enforcers. Just leave us alone. Fix engineers and the others that need a fix, but please just leave the rest of us alone.
    There is an inherent problem that Funcom has finally noticed after months and months of people showing them why LLTS was overpowered.

    For them to "leave them alone" would be a blatant disregard for balance in this game. It would be blatantly ignoring an unbalanced aspect of the game.

  4. #44

    Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by Cheetra
    1) remove all crit buffs that effect others. IE: agent, ma, adv forms that have +crit and crat speaks.

    2) allow the drop of higher ql VE's ( up to 15% ) as without out side buffs these will not be over powered.

    3) leave the LLTS alone as they will eventually replace by the highest level VE's which reduce less init so in the long run are a better choice.

    4) remove the River6, it's broken - it can be fired while running.

    5) leave all self only crit buffs alone as the classes that have them are balanced to have them.


    That should solve the problem.
    So what you're saying is reduce crits for everyone except MA's. Right.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  5. #45
    Originally posted by Lucid Flow


    Great. Not only in this post did you call everybody an idiot, but you blatantly told everybody that you want them to be nerfed because you were nerfed at one point.

    Keep it constructive.
    Why? you aren't.

  6. #46

    Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by aaronb


    So what you're saying is reduce crits for everyone except MA's. Right.

    Nope, i'm saying remove crit buffs from all class that didnt' have them designed in to start, that means agents and ma's keep them.

    It's only one possible awnser. It's also partly said in frustration of some folks that have just piped into this without bothering to read of the other 40+ pages on this topic. So yes it is rather tongue and cheek.

    It's made i direct contrast to the notion that ranged users should get VE LTTS benefits while melee users don't. Which is insane imo.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 20:21:02.

  7. #47

    Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by Cheetra
    Nope, i'm saying remove crit buffs from all class that didnt' have them designed in to start, that means agents and ma's keep them.

    It's only possible awnser.
    The problem here is that martial Artists have too high of a crit % to begin with, Hence Cz's attempt at a solution.

    All you are saying is to reduce all other professions total possible crit% amount by 7%, which reletively speaking, increases the MAs overall damage EVEN MORE compared to other professions.

    Agents have Crit buffs, but they are MUCH more balanced then the MA's.

    I say change the MAs temporary damage buffs to be perminant and change the MA's Crit buffs to only work for a short amount of time. Could be that the Mark line could have a 23 second recharge, and UVC could have a 10 minute recharge time similar to the way Agent Crit buffs work.

  8. #48

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by Lucid Flow


    The problem here is that martial Artists have too high of a crit % to begin with, Hence Cz's attempt at a solution.

    All you are saying is to reduce all other professions total possible crit% amount by 7%, which reletively speaking, increases the MAs overall damage EVEN MORE compared to other professions.

    Agents have Crit buffs, but they are MUCH more balanced then the MA's.

    I say change the MAs temporary damage buffs to be perminant and change the MA's Crit buffs to only work for a short amount of time and shutdown nano programs for 2 minutes.
    MA's are designed to crit. Agents are designed to crit. Adv's get a slight nod to crits, as do crats. Agents programs are 100% crit over the period of the program.

    Why should those advantages be eroded by ranged users being that only people to benefit from VE / LLTS ( which is what some have suggested ).

    Look Lucid you obviously aren't really contributing to any meaningful discussion of this topic, from all appearances your trolling to get a rise out of people, as such i'm not responding to you any more.

  9. #49

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    dup posting, self deleted as much as I can

  10. #50
    OK, so LLTS's for ranged and flurrys for melee. Fair enough.

    From an MA's PoV, we need phys init addition to the flurry. After all, if MA's are gonna rely on this baby for winning the crit-race, we should have it boosting a useful init, right? And MA's should win the crit race. I hope that isn't up to discussion here.

    One other thing that is bugging me about this is the bows. If MA's should be happy-clappy bow users, we kinda need some stuff.

    Like, a bow buff? So we can self-equip bows?
    And, some fast equipping bows that are on phys init? Find me one, I dare ya. Even after the init-fix, there's still a whole lot of them that will go on ranged init, and that would be a no-go. Like, all of the bows used in PvP (not all MA's use the River6).
    /DaveDread (D.A.V.E.D.R.E.A.D.: Digital Artificial Violence and Exploration Device/Replicant Engineered for Assassination and Destruction mohahaha)

    200 Opifex Clanner Gimp - Dinged in Style! (dimached a Virulent Minibull) Finally got my head straight, nothing like a goat helmet to get you in shape again. Oh, and those marks on my forehead (yah, still visible through the helmet, duh)... It was a Motorcycle baby. Really. Ran me over in West Athens while I was working on my tan. Think I look bad? You should see the biker.

  11. #51
    Wow, I can't believe what a nerfmonger Lucid has become. But most of his alleged points in his posts don't really jib with not only what most players feel, but also with what CZ says in the opening post to this thread. They are saying that the trouble ISN"T the LLTS, it's the high number of crits some players are getting. Again, I'm not sure at all what they are proposing will solve that perceived trouble without also adding some type of crit cap.
    As for Lucid (and any others) whining that LLTS should be taken out of the game because they are unbalancing, bullcookies. Heck there are a LOT of items that players are LESS likely to be able to get than a high-powered LLTS in the game not even being considered for nerfage. Yes, they don't drop, but FC can fix that. Even if they don't, you can still buy them. Try buying an EoT.

    Originally posted by Lucid Flow
    I don't get why Funcom doesn't learn from prior games. Grandfathering items is a bad idea. It always has been and always will be.
    Nerfing is also a bad idea. Especially an item that's been in the game for over a year. I don't know why FC and Lucid doesn't learn from this.

  12. #52

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by Cheetra
    MA's are designed to crit. Agents are designed to crit. Adv's get a slight nod to crits, as do crats. Agents programs are 100% crit over the period of the program.

    Why should those advantages be eroded by ranged users being that only people to benefit from VE / LLTS ( which is what some have suggested ).

    Look Lucid you obviously aren't really contributing to any meaningful discussion of this topic, from all appearances your trolling to get a rise out of people, as such i'm not responding to you any more.
    Well, my point was just because they have crit nanos, they may be critting too much.

    It's fine if you don't respond to me. I am making points in my posts in which I want you to come up with counterpoints. If all you can do is attack my character rather then the ideas I have, then I would rather you not respond to me anyway.

    Let's keep it constructive. If I have one point and you have the exact opposite view, we could work together to find a mutually acceptable solution that would benefit EVERYBODY.

  13. #53
    Originally posted by Lucid Flow


    There is an inherent problem that Funcom has finally noticed after months and months of people showing them why LLTS was overpowered.

    For them to "leave them alone" would be a blatant disregard for balance in this game. It would be blatantly ignoring an unbalanced aspect of the game.
    Any player could get and use the LLTS, Lucid, so I'm assuming you are meaning overpowered in reference to PvM. I would counter this by saying that the LLTS was not overpowered but made crit-based weapons viable. The balance problem was in crit buffs, not the LLTS. Funny how the only people that didn't get crit nerfed are the MAs and now funcom is targetting them by referring to this as a melee problem.

    Currently, it is unbalancing because only some players have them (like a pioneer backpack, as a benign example). The problem is, balance is a cascading effect. Many of us are clutching to the LLTS as our last opportunity to remain balanced.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  14. #54

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by Lucid Flow


    Well, my point was just because they have crit nanos, they may be critting too much.

    It's fine if you don't respond to me. I am making points in my posts in which I want you to come up with counterpoints. If all you can do is attack my character rather then the ideas I have, then I would rather you not respond to me anyway.

    Let's keep it constructive. If I have one point and you have the exact opposite view, we could work together to find a mutually acceptable solution that would benefit EVERYBODY.

    RK1 Cheetarr, message me, we can talk ( sorry used the rk2 name there for a sec )
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 20:40:11.

  15. #55
    Originally posted by Firedrake
    Heck there are a LOT of items that players are LESS likely to be able to get than a high-powered LLTS in the game not even being considered for nerfage. Yes, they don't drop, but FC can fix that. Even if they don't, you can still buy them. Try buying an EoT.
    The point here is the Edge of Tarasque drops from Tarasque. You can bet that Tarasque will spawn every 18 hours in 1 of 3 Camelots that exist at this point in time.

    You may need to organize a lot of people.
    You may need to try it a couple times.
    You may not get it the first time.
    You may need to outdamage a lot more people.

    But the fact remains that it's still attainable from a monster and thru normal means. The fact remains more are generated every day. There is no such balancing point for an ELLTS. No matter who you get on your team, how many times you try or who you outdamage, a LLTS will never drop again.

    That is the difference.

    And to make matter worse, an older team using LLTS against a newer team of the same level using Targeting scopes will ALWAYS get the drop from Tarasque and therefor, unbalance the game even further.

    Kind of a vicious circle don't you think?

  16. #56

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by Lucid Flow

    I say change the MAs temporary damage buffs to be perminant and change the MA's Crit buffs to only work for a short amount of time. Could be that the Mark line could have a 23 second recharge, and UVC could have a 10 minute recharge time similar to the way Agent Crit buffs work.
    I can't really believe I'm reading this Lucid. Tell me you're drunk or something. I have the utmost respect for you, but this is one of the most... I dunno. Jeez.
    /DaveDread (D.A.V.E.D.R.E.A.D.: Digital Artificial Violence and Exploration Device/Replicant Engineered for Assassination and Destruction mohahaha)

    200 Opifex Clanner Gimp - Dinged in Style! (dimached a Virulent Minibull) Finally got my head straight, nothing like a goat helmet to get you in shape again. Oh, and those marks on my forehead (yah, still visible through the helmet, duh)... It was a Motorcycle baby. Really. Ran me over in West Athens while I was working on my tan. Think I look bad? You should see the biker.

  17. #57

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by Cheetra

    Look Lucid you obviously aren't really contributing to any meaningful discussion of this topic, from all appearances your trolling to get a rise out of people, as such i'm not responding to you any more.
    No, he's not trolling. He's presenting his point of view, which from what I can tell is more rational than yours.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  18. #58
    Its painfully obvious that they are "holding our hands" to get us to say nerf the crit scope for the MA profession. So I will say it, even though I hate nerfs. Dont allow MA's to wear crit scopes. there i said it. I mean think about it

    1) they are saying some people can raise crit values to an unbelievable amount. really saying: MA can raise crit too high

    2) Make LLTS unusable for melee class. Of course everyone(ENGI, ADV, ENF) who is not able to cast the UVC line is going to complain(I would).

    3) I predict the next step(or maybe a few steps later) is only MA's cant use LLTS.

    Sounds like they are trying to get the player base to approve the MA nerf, which in their eyes will reduce the amount of MA's(largest class) that leave as a result.

    NOTE: a)I am not an MA nor do I have any MA alts so these ideas are simply what I see rather then a complaint. b) I do not like nerfs of any kind if I had it my way there would be no nerfs. c)I could be 100% wrong and probably am.

    -Arsiine.

  19. #59

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by DaveDread
    I can't really believe I'm reading this Lucid. Tell me you're drunk or something. I have the utmost respect for you, but this is one of the most... I dunno. Jeez.
    Hehe. Compared to "make all crit buffs self only" it sounded better then that.

  20. #60

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HOW TO BALANCE while leaving the LLTS alone

    Originally posted by aaronb


    No, he's not trolling. He's presenting his point of view, which from what I can tell is more rational than yours.
    how you figure ma's loosing but to +15% to crit from this and everyone else only losing +7% from this is rational is beyond me Aaronb.


    Let's clarify, i'm saying take the +15% and leave it avaliable to all classes. And as i said waaaaaaay back in the first post on this, it's not a good choice either.

    I strongly disagree with Lucid's assertation ( and the dev teams ) that this is a balance issue in any way, if it was people with LLTS would actually be running mission over ql 192 for exp, they aren't let me assure you.

    The real issue here is that one wants to play the dev teams game of smear the queer ( american game not a gay bash ), people don't take mission over ql 192 ( in general ) if avoidable, and the over 200 missions are the just plain nuts, so as a result, poeple don't run them....

    Net result, mods die really fast because folks from 135 ish to 199 are hunting the same mobs, so sure it looks like the mobs are cheese cloth, they are when you throw 6 people at a mission that is choose specifically for mob killability, IE it is faster exp to take a mission with mobs that die fast then to take a mission where the mobs are tuffer, and you many end up dead.

    Result - people level. That is the real issue here, not damage numbers.
    Last edited by Cheetra; Oct 4th, 2002 at 20:54:00.

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