Late-week update on LLTS

[Hamini]

Originally posted by Cheetra


i can't get behind this for one simple reason, it cuts deeply into the forte of the MA, critting, completely self buffed MA's have a base 24% to crit, and most other classes have +0%.

What justifies other classes jumping to +15% to crit while MA's remain at 24%? Why should ever other profession in the game get the equal of a LMA buff for a one time IP investment while MA's biggest strength is eroded to near meainglessnees?

This is not parity, this is like saying give every profession a 60% heal on the same recycle timers as the doc's "complete" heal. Oh and docs get a 30% on top the max heal for complete heal. ( since you didn't include VE's in that statment ).

As you stack in more outside crit buffs those precentages get even worse.

this is incorrect. Base crit chance no matter what is always 1%

so ma's start with 25%(with uvc) and everyone else 1%. Personally i am in support of this nerf. For those of you whining about ipr points, there are PLENTY of good shotguns that arent crit dependant (home defender for one). There are also many good pistols being added with every patch.

[ragingsyph1]

"The price you paid is irrelevant."

the price i paid IS relevant. paying 40$ more than someone else for a product i should be entitled to something they dont have access to.


"LLTS = Unblanaced ESPECIALLY because they do not drop anymore"

what's unbalancing about it? you or anyone else has just as much access to a llts as i do, it's called the open market, try buying something there sometime, you might like it. You say the llts is unbalancing, yet you only want to take it away from one class or damage type. That's your definiton of balance?

you keep talking of balance this, nerf that, i have yet to hear anything from you suggesting any form of compensation for the people who dumped ip and credits into obtaining these "aftermarket" llts'
ok, i'm an MA, make llts crit not applicable to MAs like you want but that must be replaced with something of comparable value like a huge evade boost for MAs from the llts or an large xp bonus, perhaps even BONUSES to inits instead of the penalties seeing that we wont get the crit bonus.
amazing how you keep callin for the nerf of the item but are not offering any viable compensation for its loss. if llts apply to everyone but the ma and melee users, make the crit buffs available from MAs, agents and crats only available to MAs and melee users and compensate those that have them for ip and money spent. THAT is an example of a balance suggestion not the repeated cries for nerfs you keep spewing

p.s.
FoB is an extremely poor substitute for an llts, i can't believe that was even suggested.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Ragingsyph
"The price you paid is irrelevant."

the price i paid IS relevant. paying 40$ more than someone else for a product i should be entitled to something they dont have access to.

You paid for the product "as is." Just because you bought the game when it cost more, doesn't mean you are entitled more. To think so is silly.

But, since you think i'm rambling, Funcom alludes to it many times in their EULA.

"You understand that we may update or otherwise enhance the Software at any time and in doing so incur no obligation to furnish such updates to you pursuant to this Agreement."

"We and our suppliers shall retain ownership of all intellectual property rights relating to or residing in the CD-ROM, the Software and the Game. The Software is a commercial item." Which means you have no ownership of the software, and therefor have no special rights to changes in it during it's use nor do you have any rights in relation to the price you paid.

"WE PROVIDE THE CD-ROM, THE SOFTWARE, THE ACCOUNT, THE GAME AND ALL OTHER SERVICES "AS IS". WE AND OUR SUPPLIERS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Without limiting the foregoing, we do not ensure continuous, error-free, secure or virus-free operation of the CD-ROM, the Software, the Game or your Account."

"ll services hereunder are offered by Funcom GmbH, a corporation organized under the laws of Switzerland, with its mailing address at Duforstrasse 131, CH-8008 Zurich, Switzerland. Current rates for using the Game may be obtained from www.funcom.com, and such rates are subject to change at any time."

"LLTS = Unblanaced ESPECIALLY because they do not drop anymore"

what's unbalancing about it? you or anyone else has just as much access to a llts as i do, it's called the open market, try buying something there sometime, you might like it. You say the llts is unbalancing, yet you only want to take it away from one class or damage type. That's your definiton of balance?

First of all, no. Don't put words in my mouth. I don't do it to you so give me the same respect.

To answer your question, an open market does not therefor balance an item. Why? Because they aren't attainable through normal means in the game. Everything that is fair in the game can be obtained thru a drop, mission, boss reward or quest reward. The fact is one must attain amounts of credits the game hardly allows for (most of the 500m+ credits people lug around is from way back when credit duping ruined the economy). Already prior exploits have inflated the economy so much, that the normal player is already set at a disadvantage.

Unless from a shop, Buying something from players only is not fair in any respect. No matter how hard it may be, Tarasque will still spawn and people will STILL have the same chances to gather a group and try to outdamage everybody else there. It doesn't take "convincing" Tarasque to spawn or drop something useful, s/he just does it and you can count on it. The fact that players are picky, stingy and usually gobble up grandfathered items like MAD, that is what makes it unbalanced. It's irrelevant that they still exist and I could buy them from players; What is relevant is that they shouldn't exist.

you keep talking of balance this, nerf that, i have yet to hear anything from you suggesting any form of compensation for the people who dumped ip and credits into obtaining these "aftermarket" llts'

Really? It's pretty hard to boil down paragraphs of counter-point that I post on these boards into 4 words. Yet you were able to narrow every single view I have posted into "balance this, nerf that."

/sarcasm off.

I have offered compensation. 4 IPR points, and 1m credits per qual level of a "useless" LLTS sold to a shop. Leave the Vision Enhancers exactly the way they are and allow people, Melee, Ranged or MA to use them as they please.

That is my solution. While you may have missed it, I was kind enough to spell it out for you again.

[_________Divinecross]

I like the idea of giving the LLTS's massive -'s in init to melee skills. It beats nerfing the critical % hands down.

[_____________Cloudehxx]

Do not, do not EVER EVER Compare Flurry to a scope.

Flurry at my level lasts what, I dunno, 8 secs?.

Hell if you do use flurry it seems like it lasts just for the first few opening shots.


Scopes are permanent.

Flurry is not an alternative.


We cannot break the highest level roots Dave.
Self buffed, if this was to happen, I have exactly.

15.6266% for around ( 5 secs?) or 20 secs.

It certainly doesnt feel like 20.
Those Ranged with 15% get it perma, those who use nano skills are not affected, so they get to use nanos at full speed and only have the gun speed affected.

Yes,combat nanos dont 'crit' I know. But those shotguns do, and they hurt.

Just leave it.
Dont try and be clever and add/change things.

Wake up..... just keep it as it is, bring back ELLTS's or Take them out.

There is no need to change them.
Make it possible so another person can get one as much as those who found on in a mission.

Nobody should not be able to get something because it no longer exists, I dont care how long you have played.


And before you tell me to stop whining, I already have a 4%, 7% 10% old skool scope and my bro deleted a 14% Old skool ELLTS.

:|

Only Problem is a I can use a scope and not have my speed affected by using rage and flurry for melee init.

So I wouldnt be surprised if they added more melee init. Laugh.


Oh yeah, while your at it, give us enforcers Nukes.
2500-4000

And put in a Dark Blue skill, called ' Nuke ' which is the most expensive skill to train, so we too, can be a COMBAT NANO CLASS USING A WEAPON.

If I had the choice, I would j/k

Yes i was being Sarcastic but i do have a point.

[ragingsyph1]

"You understand that we may update or otherwise enhance the Software at any time and in doing so incur no obligation to furnish such updates to you pursuant to this Agreement"

use of the words update and enhance by no means nerf. they also say that they are under no legal obligation to change anything in any way.

"We and our suppliers shall retain ownership of all intellectual property rights relating to or residing in the CD-ROM, the Software and the Game. The Software is a commercial item." Which means you have no ownership of the software, and therefor have no special rights to changes in it during it's use nor do you have any rights in relation to the price you paid. "

never claimed to have any ownership of it whatsoever, nor claim to have any special rights but you seem to have a misunderstanding of what that statement means

Definition of intellectual property rights: the ownership of the rights to intellectual property, being the outputs of creative endeavour capable of being protected under legislation such as that relating to patents, design rights, trade marks, or copyright

the comments about the extra 40$ i paid is merely a statement, that being a loyal client for so long and paying that extra amount of money SHOULD get you something.....that's called Customer Service something which FC is notoriously bad at to begin with, it may be a pipe dream, but it is still a valid statement/concern whether you think it is or not. but we're supposed to be here recommending ideas for a change that's going to tak place whether most of us want it or not. and it is becoming more and more obvious that other people's statements are true, that you're here trolling for an argument, which i don't be wished to be dragged into. if you want to argue the finer points of the EULA or the opinion that an extra 40$ paid should or should not be reqarded, i'd be glad to do it elsewhere, but not in this thread.

back on topic:

"To answer your question, an open market does not therefor balance an item. Why? Because they aren't attainable through normal means in the game. Everything that is fair in the game can be obtained thru a drop, mission, boss reward or quest reward. The fact is one must attain amounts of credits the game hardly allows for (most of the 500m+ credits people lug around is from way back when credit duping ruined the economy)."

so according to your logic Nullity Sphere is just fine as it is as well. or Grid Armor. Those items are much more rare than an llts and costs millions more, but since they have a 1:1,500,000,000 chance of dropping, that's perfectly ok in your book. Shades and EoT and other such items have played a much larger role in destroying the economy and are MUCH harder to obtain for the casual player than a llts yet, since they DO drop at some point they're just fine and dandy and not they're not unbalancing in anyway. truly amazing, your logic (or lack there of) never ceases to amaze.


again in case FC reps miss it, my suggestion:

1) if ma and melee users can no longer get crit bonus from llts, make all crit buffs available to ma and melee users only.

2)give ma and melee users init bonuses on the llts in lieu of the crit %

3) give ma and melee users xp and evade bonuses on the llts in lieu of the crit bonus

4)ipr available after change for those who deem it a waste in addition to monetary compensation

5)introduce a seperate ma and melee scope of comparable quality


and 1 question for Cz or Cosmik, why did this become a nerf MAs idea and thread?

done with the subject because Lucid's pedantic ramblings bore me

[______________Hayake]

BTW just to give you some idea of balance...

Take a look at the polls forum about pvp.. I sure as hell don't see a lot of pple complaing about enforcers and ma's there.

In pvm doing damage is both the primary job of ma's and enforcers. Indeed we dish out loads of damage, but that is about all we can do.

What you propose would make the other lucky few classes get much much closer to us in dealing damage or in some cases I can imagine being neatly outdamaged by professions that by all means aren't supposed to.

Now in the case of Soldiers, I do feel they should do more damage than they do now compared to ma's/enforcers.

Other classes however shouldn't.

They may need fixes but giving them a crit chance close to an ma's crit chance is not the way to go. Fix pets fi, better pathing, some decent nanoresist on them and a halfdecent attack rating would help a ton.

We have no calms, roots, pets, nukes, tradeskills, reflect shields, drains, range aso, or do you mean that melee classes will get these when you allow other classes to get 15% crit chance from an item we can't use? (ironic)

MA's are like enforcers generally considered a good class, not an overpowered one, once again take a look at the pvp polls/boards if you want confirmation about that. Or make a new official poll.

Bring soldiers nearer to their level and leave the llts alone or nerf it to 8% for everyone and keep allowing everyone to use it.

Flurry of Blows is in no way comparable to a crit scope btw, and tbh I don't trust fc to make it anywhere near comparable to a crit scope.

Besides in the off chance that you would make it comparable to a llts... What exactly is the point of this all then?

The one thing I do agree on is making the ma self only crit buffs ma weapons only (ie any weapon that uses ma as part of it's attackskill and bows)

Besides that I am under the impression that you guys think a lot of MA's use flurry of blows? If that is the problem just make flurry of blows non-ma. I don't use it and know very few ma's that do and have no problems accepting that.

[Nomius]

[Cheetra]

Originally posted by KlngArthur



this is incorrect. Base crit chance no matter what is always 1%

so ma's start with 25%(with uvc) and everyone else 1%. Personally i am in support of this nerf. For those of you whining about ipr points, there are PLENTY of good shotguns that arent crit dependant (home defender for one). There are also many good pistols being added with every patch.

Actually... what I said is completely correct, you omited reading the part "self buffed"

meaning:
MA's have a +24% self buffed
others, excpeting Agents and Adv and crats, have a +0 self buffed

In both cases is it understood that there is a base % chance to which the +% adds too. There has also been some debate as to if the base % chance is +1% or +3%. Please read more carefully prior to attempting to correct me.

Thank you.

So since you support this nerf i must assume you support giving all non doc professions a heal that is 60% to 30% as effective as the doc complete heal? Depeneding on which way you go, which suggestion here that's followed, that's what you're asking to remove from my professions best ability, critting over time.

Personally I still think this is a bad idea from the get go. How many llts are in game? How many of those are in the +9% to +15% range? How many of those are in the hands of UVC casting martial artists?

FACT: most ma's aren't self casting UVC prior to 192, while it is possible it is a HUGE investment of IP into skills that have absoultely no use except as a vehicle to cast this nano. It's requires 777 psy mod, 777 time & space and 777 sense imp. all of these nano skills are medium blue. Due to the way implant set ups work it's not possible to simply implant the skills across all three skills.

FACT: atrox MA's won't be self casting UVC prior to even that level.

[Cheetra]

Originally posted by Mortiserus
Cheetra you can just stfu right now. UVC is a 24% crit buff self-only for MA wtf more do you want? jesus...I have to use a 13% LLTSand try to find MoP and TTS to get near that.You want other profs nerfed? Please take a long walk off of a short, very high cliff.

No, i won't stfu, that's shut the f*** up abreviated btw Cz, the intent is the same and as such i'd like this personal attack removed as soon as you get back please.


Do you have any +% crit buff on your profession? No? Do you have other nanos' that are specific to you your profession? Yes? yeah right.... so you you should get what equates to the second best self only crit buff ( for damage over time ) in this game while MA's get shafted? I don't think so.

let's assume that VE's still work for every one, okay.. so you should be able to self cast Subconcious guide just because your a ranged user? That's what your asking for.

What do i want? I want to keep the only real thing my profession has going for it, critting over time. I don't want it handed out to every ranged weapon user at the expense of EVERY melee and ma user.

How does it effect other melee / ma using professions? Easy, they can't use a item that would allow a ranged user +7% more chance to crit over what the close in combat professions can ever have for realiable +% crit damage.

Even if FoB is taken into account you're asking melee and ma using profession to take the dubious position of taking crits themselves for doing crits ( that's how FoB works, only you end up taking crits on yourself for a lot more then you end up doing them ).

How is that balanced? How is that fair?

And next time please try actually debating prior to insulting.

[Nomius]

OMG this nerf is a bad idea

[Cheetra]

Having actuall read the last 10 pages ( and a lot more carefully then i did the first time ) I have formed my finaly post for this topic, so i can get back and level prior to anything being changed.

As many side notes have come up I'll post only in responce the original suggestion.

Originally posted by Cz
Hi everybody. The other threads are getting long, and I would like to start a new thread for you to use over the weekend. Thank you for the feedback in the other threads, and for staying (mostly) constructive.

Now for the current status:

We had a meeting today involving several people from different departments, and basically we agreed that LLTS itself is not the main issue, but the critical chances that people are able to attain. Due to this I would like to ask a bit more about some of the suggestions players have brought up; making so that you can't efficiently stack all crit increasing stuff in the game.

So, new suggestion:

How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?.

In order for this idea to work is would require a lot of additional things I'll list out what would be required and why:

1) FoB would have to have a + physical init equal to the +melee init for this to work.

Why? While MA fist only require 150 init at full agg to hit 1/1, this is not true for all MA weapons ( parry sticks, wall blades, and various bows ).

Note: If this item is included in the current thought process of melee's doing better damge then ranged users we need to know that now. Very few melee users actually use this device frequently due to the negative effects of it, very short term + to damage paired with a much longer period of time where your derense rating is in reduced, and you're being critted on.

2) MA crit buffs ( other ) would need to be subject to the same ranged init penatly.

Why? If this change isn't made to both MA +crit self and other, MA+% crit buff effectively gives ranged users a double buff, the +7% from the scope and the +8% from MoP ( assuming best MA +crit other ). In effect this means all ranged user can have an aditional +7% to crit max over all non-MA melee user, and cuts into the defining ability of MA's as well as the total chance crit fo MA's is reduced vs ranged weapon users. There is one ranged profession I not mind seeing this for, soliders, but i'll come to that idea later.

This is basically a 'simple' change, which does not require new code, and I believe it will be a very viable alternative to nerfing the crit chance on LLTS..

comment: it does nerf the +crit chance on the LLTS, for adventures, enforcers, and any martial arts using profession ( not just MA's but also engie's and others that choose to use MA as their primary attack skill ).

Who will be the losers in such a deal?

Melee and MA users are the loser in this.

How much will they lose?

Melee and MA users will lose in this as ranged professions would gain an additional +7% to crit max on them ( unless a range init penalty is added to the MA crit other lines ).

Please note: the +7% i mention only applies if VE's still work for melee / ma users, if VE's are modified as the LLTS then that jumps to +15%.

Higher QL FoB's simply aren't worth using, it's a loosing battle, the damage you take when using it isn't worth the damage you do verse mobs, and in pvp the limited timer on the offensive portion means you aren't likely to land more then one or two hits against a ranged weapon user, if any. The negatives to defense though are there the whole time, in both pvm and pvp, meaning the person using the FoB is much easier to crit on.

What would be a reasonable compensation (in e.g. IPR points)?

1) Reasonable compensation would be if MA crit other programs also carried a hefty ranged init debuff, making them much less beneficial to ranged users. This would effectively stop the gap in melee +% crit and ranged +% crit from ever forming.

2) as any solution of this type will require that LLTS ( under a differnt name ) drop again ( and it should be a mission reward as before), the old school LLTS should be sellable to terms / shops for 1mill to 2 mill crds per ql for scope that currently have a +9% to crit or better, as +8% scopes never reached the values of the higher +% to crit scopes.

3) Do an open IPR, those that missed the first one get a second chance, and it's fair to all.

Will balance be better or worse?.

Balance would be better if the above mentioned steps are taken.
If they aren't then balance will be off in favor of ranged user doing more damage over melees.

ADDITIONALLY: this offers a rare chance to balance a profession by the addition of 1 nano program line.

Namely: Soliders.

As we are all painfully aware soliders damage is nothing special, and they can't hold aggro to save YOUR life. Certinaly it's not soliders that are critting to much and causing the issue to begin with, this profession is billed as being the best with guns and heavy weaopns.

By adding a self only Buff to Soliders with very high values for +ranged int and +fast attack ( idealy a level 200 solider should be able to use a ql 200 FoB with a min of ip investment into the fast attack skill, no more then a shining cluster with fast attack should really be needed to use a ql 200 FoB at title level 6 imo ).

This would effectively allow them to have access to the MA + crit ( other ) programs, AND use of FoB. IMO this would allow them to exceed their current damage levels with a min of changes to coding, and also allow them to use a lot of weapons more effectively then other ranged users, as they would be able to bring several other weapons down to the 1/1 attack value.

Let me have your feedback, and I'll compile it and add it to the feedback on other suggestions and ideas, and we'll see where we end up.

Well, this is my finaly post on this till we get some feedback from Cz.

[Evilmery]

Engis is transference get totally screwed by this change. they can use +13 scope and do ok dmg that way but without that they are as worthless as a MA without critbuff.

[Phione]

2hb, Beam users, cannot use high crit scope because of the speed, so extra melee panalty on LLTS will hurt them a lot (they'll be forced to use even lower ql llts/ve)
1hb, alloy/pipe, is JUNK without decent crit chance. There is no other viable 1hb choices that'll enable them to do good damage.

[Resta]

Originally posted by Phione

1hb, alloy/pipe, is JUNK without decent crit chance. There is no other viable 1hb choices that'll enable them to do good damage.

They can always put Blood Bat into the game

[Quamander]

You know guys, LOL. Ranged users are asking melee's to get nerfed, and melee's asking in return for ranged to get nerfed... whats gonna happen!? We are all gonna ge what we want and FC is going to get what they want! Everyone gets nerfed, and we as a whole do alot less damage.... Woot GJ guys, keep up the uber work!

[___________Firedrake]

Originally posted by Quamander
You know guys, LOL. Ranged users are asking melee's to get nerfed, and melee's asking in return for ranged to get nerfed... whats gonna happen!? We are all gonna ge what we want and FC is going to get what they want! Everyone gets nerfed, and we as a whole do alot less damage.... Woot GJ guys, keep up the uber work!

What I think the FC was saying is that they were thinking about making LLTS for ranged only and FoB for melee only, as they were worried about crit items/buffs stacking too high. A cap to crits would be easier. But if they want to do this, then they need to change Flurry a bit. LLTS is always on, Flurry only works a short perios and can't be reused for a time. Also Flurry has a nasty side effect of making the user get critted far more often than they crit. If they can make those changes, then making it so no one can use both scopes and Flurry isn't all that bad. I still say a cap to crits is probably the best way to go for them if they really are worried about total crit chances getting too high.

[Phione]

Blood Bat can't be consider into the picture because it is not even yet obtainable.
And there are NO melee ppl whatsoever that's asking to nerf ranged user. However, it is a fact that melee users should get higher damage weapon (which we don't), and I'm just stating a fact that yet needs to be considered.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Phione
However, it is a fact that melee users should get higher damage weapon (which we don't), and I'm just stating a fact that yet needs to be considered.

I don't think they should have higher MAX damage, rather higher MIN damage, which is what is intended by Funcom anyway. Melee would have high reliable damage in exchange for it's range, and Ranged would have high max damage, very high range in exchange for the min damage.

This was the original intent of Funcom anyway.

[Phione]

"Average damage" for melee users is, for the last time, as low as it can be, with pathetic crit. We don't have high min damage weapon, we don't have high max damage weapon, and we don't have high crit weapon.
And before you get into EoT and Blood Bat, Let's make Nova and X-3 as rare as those, and as powerful as those, shall we?