Late-week update on LLTS

[Cz]

Hi everybody. The other threads are getting long, and I would like to start a new thread for you to use over the weekend. Thank you for the feedback in the other threads, and for staying (mostly) constructive.

Now for the current status:

We had a meeting today involving several people from different departments, and basically we agreed that LLTS itself is not the main issue, but the critical chances that people are able to attain. Due to this I would like to ask a bit more about some of the suggestions players have brought up; making so that you can't efficiently stack all crit increasing stuff in the game.

So, new suggestion:

How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

This is basically a 'simple' change, which does not require new code, and I believe it will be a very viable alternative to nerfing the crit chance on LLTS.

Who will be the losers in such a deal? How much will they lose? What would be a reasonable compensation (in e.g. IPR points)?Will balance be better or worse?

Let me have your feedback, and I'll compile it and add it to the feedback on other suggestions and ideas, and we'll see where we end up.

[Krabbus]

So, what you are saying that you will increase melee/phys init penalty even more at the LLTS to balance it? What is the problem, is the problem that MAs crit to much with fist and MA weapons, or that they crit to much using non-ma weapons?

If they are critting to much with ranged weapons and using that, why not implement a ranged/melee init penalty at the self-only crit? This way can't they use crit together with other non-ma weapons (they can, but the weapon will be really slow)

If you are going to increase the phys/melee init penalty at the LLTS I'm going to play the game much less than I do today. My engineer is doing MA, and the only crit modifer he has is the LLTS scope (8%), I don't crit much, but I see some crits once in a while (avarage 1.5 crit each fight, a bit more with transference). If that is going to be reduced even more, playing this game won't be fun for me. (btw, I don't want to increase perception for new scope, I like EE, WS for my tradeskills)

No stupid phys/melee init penalty, this will destroy my Engineer for sure. Please listen to this Cz. If you are going to nerf LLTS this way, please nerf the others scopes to - I'm serious there...

/me out!

Originally posted by Cz
Who will be the losers in such a deal?

Tradeskill Engineers using LLTS.



Krabbus - Level 141 MA Engineer

[Krabbus]

Another solution to the nerf is to do the following:

Leave all scopes that has 8% crit modifier or less. Do nothing to them, just leave them as they are today. But every other scopes that has higher crit modifier than 8% can be reduced to 8% crit as max, and add a nice modifier to balance up the reduce in crit.

[Hildegaard]

CZ said -


How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?


Perfect solution!

Simple, clean, non-discriminatory...

I like it!

This suggestion has my 110% approval and endorsement

Best of all, this solution doesn't cripple large any large segment of the community, as other previous suggestions would have.

Yes, I feel for the Engineer. Engies are hurting badly right now, and desperately, desperately need some love.

But I can say from personal first-hand experience that MA is a very poor choice for an Engineer. And major decisions that impact the whole community cannot be based on catering to a small minority.

[kylee]

Melee is bad enough as it is, almost unusable in PVP without getting everyone's specials unloaded on you.

Is this a roleplaying reason? I'd expect a HUGE boost to Martial Arts and Melee damage if this kinda thing gets changed... I've got crits and heals, everyone else gonna be critting at the same rate as a MA now with this...

i'd have to reset 4 dark blue ranged skills (ar, smg, aimed shot, ranged init) and 2 dark blue trade skills, and I'd lose any value in my ELLTS. My init is way in the negatives and my assault rifle cap is 520, i don't see the problem with crit buffs on ranged weapons. It's already a huge step down in damage for a MA, there's no reason to completely 'gimp' it.

Suggestion: Look into the levels of mobs people are fighting at high levels. (Hint: Everyoen does QL 190ish missions). Perhaps some incentive should be given to doing ql 220+ stuff where critial blows aren't so common?

Suggestion #2: Don't screw up MAs, you just fixed us... Melees should crit more than ranged users, not the other way around. We're already penalized by all dark blue skills in ranged weaponry, and ***melee users DO NOT USE RANGED WEAPONS IN PvM, it's poor damage.*** (you said the problem was PvM).

Suggestion #3: Put a Level 200 requirement on my QL 200 ELLTS, then I can use it for PVP when I hit 200 when I don't have any PvM left to do...

P.S. Before people use it as 'evidence' to support ranged crit nerfs for MAs, I do 30% damage with my River(ranged weapon) compared to standard MA, and that's with a pair of Kaehlers leeves. Most prefer bows, attack rating just barely breaks into the 700's... This nerf appeals to the "nerf everyone else but not me" crowd... melees are 33% of this game's population

[___________Firedrake]

One problem I can see right off is that Flurry of Blows only crits for part of it's use (anyone know exactly how long per QL?) and then can only be used every 5 min. It certainly isn't really a melee equivilant to the LLTS. There is also a HUGE pain involved with FoB as it's marked Unique, so if you find one of a higher level than one you have, but can't equip it yet you have ot decide whether to go without one for a while or leave to rot. One other major difference is that FoB when used usually has you getting critted for twice as much as you are critting, if you are lucky. The LLTS doesn't have that drawback either. These issues would need to be addressed for this to be anywhere near fair.

Personally, I disagree with the main premise that folks are critting too much. I don't hear anyone saying how easy it is to just breeze through leveling at the high levels. Also, if 26% for a self buffed MA isn't too much, then why on earth is 15% for anyone else? What I think you all might be better off considering is just a plain and simple cap on max % crit chance. That seems fairest to me. Also, if part of being a MA is a better crit chance, then just have this cap higher for that class. It shouldn't be that hard.

[_____________Bigtoof]

Imo, this change makes the most sense so far. Obviously the river series MAs with their crazy 40% crit will cry over this change, but overall I think the vast majority would be happier if the crit nerf didnt happen to the scopes, and the inits were adjusted in this manner.

As for the non-MAs using MA as their means of attack...time to find a weapon to use. If extra ipr points are given at the time of this change, it isn't very difficult to reset ma and phys init and pick a gun to use.

Of course, no matter what changes are made, there is gonna be a group of people that are unhappy, but this one seems the most fair so far to me.

This will just force MAs to use *gasp* martial arts. If you wanna use guns, shouldn't have chosen to be an MA.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Cz
How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

Who will be the losers in such a deal? How much will they lose? What would be a reasonable compensation (in e.g. IPR points)?Will balance be better or worse?

Here are the losers:

Enforcers.
Adventurers.

Heck, ANY profession that chooses to melee that isnt a Martial Artist will now suffer a dramatic loss in damage. The idea is a good one but it isn't thought out very well. Enforcers already don't do enough damage to keep aggro, so when you nerf THEIR crit chance (and they don't get Crit chance buffs either) then they will begin to fade out of existence.

Cz, I highly suggest you don't listen to the whining of people. The people who oppose the LLTS nerf are the ones that have it.

Let me ask you a simple question. If the LLTS was overpowered enough to remove from the game the first time and replace it with a Targeting Scope, what constituted leaving the old ones in the game? All you did was create an overinflated economy and froze the supply of scopes. Now, only a limited number of people have those scopes and it skews the playfield SO MUCH as to create this terrible problem to begin with.

There are only 2 fair options.

1) Make ELLTSs a useless item that sell for 1m credit per qlvl.

2) Use your suggestion above, but reintroduce the ELLTS so that everybody has an equal chance of getting them again.

Any other option will be unbalanced because there is no way to get an old scope thru normal means and it creates frustration in players who cannot get them. Even the most UBER of rare items can be gotten by killing a hard monster or finding a way to do it. There is no such way to get an ELLTS.

It's basically to say "All you who have been around long enough AND were players at a time when gaining 500 million credits was easy, you can have an advantage over every other player in the game. We don't care about a fair playing field, we don't care about equal oppurtunity, hence we left these in game."

[______________DocNec]

Originally posted by Cz

How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

Genius! BEERS FOR EVERYONE!

This is a nasty blow to advens and enfo's though=/ Perhaps link it to just MA skill for the init's?

[Hildegaard]

OMG, call whine-1-1, and tell 'em we need a waaaaaaaahmbulance

Lucid. It is not a crime for those of us who joined early to have done so. It is not a crime to have been a paying customer since the days when the ELLTS dropped and sold in shops.

Yet one would sure think it was, to hear you argue so passionately that those of us who own these should be punished by having them taken away.

How do you justify morally saying that we should be punished by having our posessions confiscated?

What we have here, folks, is a simple case of jealousy.

"Mommy, mommy, Billy got a bigger ice cream cone than I did, and it's not FAIR!"

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Hildegaard
Lucid. It is not a crime for those of us who joined early to have done so. It is not a crime to have been a paying customer since the days when the ELLTS dropped and sold in shops

No, the only crime here is Funcoms inability to put their foot down and make a decision for the good of the ENTIRE community of players. Just because you played early in a game does NOT give you the right to continue to use an item that was deemed overpowered. Just because you are a playing customer does NOT give you the right to have an unfair advantage then everybody else.

You seem to think you have some sort of special right compared to new players. You don't. The only right you have is to play a game that Funcom deemed FAIR for all players.

ALL Players, not just old players. You may think it's unfair for them to take away an item that you worked hard to get, I say it's unfair to tell new players they will NEVER be able to get such an item and will NEVER be equal to or better then older players.

Funcom: You put your foot down and removed Divaad and Knights armor, now put your foot down and remove this item.

[_____________Bigtoof]

Flurry of blows could easily be modified as well to make up for the loss to enfs/advs. Remove the uniq tag, make the crit effect last longer, etc...

I have no personal experience using FOB, so I can't make many good suggestions. But it is an easily attainable item, and if the scopes were made to work with ranged only and Flurry was beefed up to compensate, Enfs and Advs would be fine. In fact, they would be better off in a way since they could get a flurry easily.

I have a scope and yes that is a major reason I don't want to see it nerfed, but...I am not greedy about having it. I would be more than happy if the newly "balanced" scopes were reintroduced into the game and anyone could blitz a mission for them, even though I had to trade a lot for mine.

But nerfing them to death or removing them is not an option now. Back before 14.2 when funcom realized crits were too common and overpowered, that is when they should have removed them, as they had little economic value. Now, it's unrealistic to remove or ruin an item that so many people invested a lot into getting.

So, either they are put back into game, or the newer people have to work and earn enough money to buy or trade for one. Tough cookies if that's the case, though I would rather see them brought back after this change if it happens.

[DaveDread]

So, this was targeted at MA's. For a second I thought it was the general crit-level that was the problem. I'll get back here later.

[___________Firedrake]

Whatever you do FC, please, please, PLEASE stop listening to the nerfcryers. Luckily it seems only a very few sad souls are in favor of this latest would-be nerf. There are much better ways of dealing with this, use them. Your player base really needs to see that SOMEONE there at FC has a clue and listens.

[____________Intrepid]

Originally posted by Cz
How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?

So scopes won't work on MA while crit buffs won't work on ranged?

[Cheetra]

Originally posted by Hildegaard
CZ said -


How about saying that Flurry of Blows and the MA self crit buffs won't be usable with ranged weapons (except bows) due to a big Ranged Init penalty, and the LLTS won't be usable with close combat weapons, bare handed attacks and bows due to a big penalty on Melee and Physical Init?


Perfect solution!

Simple, clean, non-discriminatory...

I like it!

This suggestion has my 110% approval and endorsement

Best of all, this solution doesn't cripple large any large segment of the community, as other previous suggestions would have.

Yes, I feel for the Engineer. Engies are hurting badly right now, and desperately, desperately need some love.

But I can say from personal first-hand experience that MA is a very poor choice for an Engineer. And major decisions that impact the whole community cannot be based on catering to a small minority.

Here's the reason why that doesn't work:

Originally posted by Cheetra
Case in point:
FoB IS infact usable by ranged users.

I realize a lot of you don't know that, but guess what? It is.

Here's how it works:

FoB pushes the agg slider up, then fills in the needed Melee init to make that push up mean something.

HOWEVER: there are other means to make that init fill in with other weapons as well.

1) the easiest way is to have an init score for your choosen weapon in excess of the needed min fastest refire init needed on the weapon equal to the melee init bonus provided by the FoB in question.

OR

2) for ma's use a boosted stim that add an amount of physical init close to or equal to the melee boost of the FoB

pretty obvious most you have never played around with a FoB to determine the actual usability or effects.

BTW if you DO decide to use a FoB with a ranged weapon, set on high agg, you will see the difference, BUT your evades will in the toilet, so plan on being crited on. FoB simply does not compare to a LLTS in any way shape or form, and YES it IS usable with benefit by ranged weapon users also.

So before you going saying none melee's CAN'T use this item... do some research, no it's not AS beneficial, yes you do have to max your ranged init and implanting it is a good idea too to get the most out of a FoB but it's useable for you folks too

Works with bows too

now can we get back to the LLTS discussion?

[mulps1]

sounds a cool idea to me...

[____________Intrepid]

Originally posted by Hildegaard
But I can say from personal first-hand experience that MA is a very poor choice for an Engineer. And major decisions that impact the whole community cannot be based on catering to a small minority.

Do you even play a engineer or what??

Above level 150 MA is the ONLY decent choice for a engie.

I bet 90% of 150+ engies are MA attack

Just what we uber engies need a nerf which will affect us the most. Making us from totally and completely useless to non-existant so you don't have to worry about us.

and does LLTS mean VEs as well or just LLTS?

[Argulace]

uhoh, looks as if some of us who were thinking this was an MA problem that would hurt everyone were right?

I have to say that you guys are right on the money here Cz. Although I don't agree that Adventurer/Enforcer should be nerfed in any way, I have to agree that MA's running around with River6 shooting while running and having 43% crit is a tiny bit on the overpowered side.

The more I read on this and previous discussions about this particular nerf, the more I learn about other professions.

[Hajkster]

Sounds like good to me... need some changes tho to benefit all..