Hostile nanos balance

[Klod9002]

Make them all check min 100% NR for def. The most OP'd of them should check 120-200% and have decent recharge, or at least lock time (so you can cast other stuff - NT case?). PvP duration should be 30 sec at max.

Other suggestions?

Discuss.

[Xenotric]

hmm not sure about ALL of them checking 100% NR, but possible make it so they all check atleast a total of 100% of a mixture of skills (although some would still be plausible having less then 100% but those ones tend to be minor debuffs)

[Hacre]

eNSD needs a lower defense check. For the dumb recharge it has and being in the same line as NSD, MPs need to know that if they're going to press that button, it's going to land, because against professions who it will affect the most, it's going to need at least 3 casts.

Now given that I know your hate for CB and this thread is quite probably a thinly veiled "nerf CB" along with probably a "nerf GTH", if CB has a 100% or higher check, there will be zero point in using it.

If you want CB to have a higher check, then change it like so:

85-90% check (this will make it harder to land than the numbers suggest, it's still a split attack skill. If you want 95-100% check on it then it should be MC only.)
20 metre range so NTs don't have to have a range increaser in.
30s duration -maximum-.
Move the cast cap (so it's instacast) onto the recharge, so it's still ~3s between casts.
Make the stacking of the nano have diminishing results, like so:
CB I = -1000 NR
CB II = -1500 NR
CB III = -1750 NR

Or, change the stacking effect so that it can only stack if target = Enforcer or target has Notum Repulsor perked. This is going to promote whines, but until there's a General perk line that adds to evades while debuffing weapon skills then I'm sticking to this stance. Since the perk reset guy was put into the game I've seen, even since the sploit fix, plenty of people (RK1) perking NR4-8 after buffing and challenging casters to duels, not just NTs.

Finally, it should be removable so add it to regular out of fight virus scanners.

As for GTH, at the moment I've no idea how to change it. I guess up the NR check, or up the recharge to 2.5-3s, definitely nerf the duration. It shouldn't just be on Battlestation Scanners though it should be on regular ones.

IMHO it should also be removable by the 2 NSD removers in Nano Doctorate. Oh hey I guess I did have ideas on how to change it after all.

You can't just say "whack on a 200% check and a big recharge" as that's not balanced. If I can be sympathetic to the plights of casters I don't play (see the eNSD point I made) you can at least do the same, Klod.

[Klod9002]

You can't just say "whack on a 200% check and a big recharge" as that's not balanced. If I can be sympathetic to the plights of casters I don't play (see the eNSD point I made) you can at least do the same, Klod.

Some should indeed use 200% def check, if recharge and/or devastating effect is to stay the same. BR, GTH, EP, RI comes to my mind.

[schloops]

Hacre makes good points concerning cb. Only point I may disagree here is that I don't like nanos having a different effect depending on target profession (or breed or whatever)... would prefer some professions having a couple % chance resist... like versus roots for example, by a way or another (without requiring them to become gimp just to benefit from that). The stacking effects of cb could be halved in pvp... since stacking it is mostly directed to pvm anyway (let me rephrase this... it should be directed to pvm).

As for gth, a good nerf would be a low range and a lil period (couple secs) before it can be used again (not a longer recharge!). Low chances of landing would make luck a too big factor.

Now, chance being a factor in each situations, it could look like I'm contradicting myself here, but actually, 15% chance of countering would just force to launch it again, sometimes, while a low chance of landing could easily mean a gazillion tries before it lands.

Just my opinions.

Edit: just thought of other systems for "wtf you are toasted nanos": incremental chances of landing after each unsuccesfull try or even better, the first cast not counting and just giving a warning to your target that someone is aiming to make your life miserable. The target is warned... it gives it a chance to pop out.
Sadly, those require timers, that may be a pita to program or maybe a pain to performances.

[Hacre]

I don't like % innate resist. There's enough of it flying around as is. There's either too much of it making an attack useless (roots/blinds) or not enough of it that it never does anything when you really want it to (GTH resist, NSD resist).

I don't usually like target profession based mods on tools either, but CB impacts Engineers/Keepers etc far more than it impacts Enforcers. For example I can land one shot of CB on an Enforcer and they're still likely to counter Restrain, Double, DoT, SL root, etc. One shot of CB on say, a Fixer or an MP, they're not going to counter anything.

The other option of course is to make it swipe a percentage of the target NR, 25%, 50% and 75% as you stack it. No possibility to put the NR into negative numbers and it doesn't completely wtfpwn the target's NR with just one cast, so heavily defensive NTs would be at a disadvantage compared to AR oriented NTs.

[Klod9002]

The other option of course is to make it swipe a percentage of the target NR, 25%, 50% and 75% as you stack it. No possibility to put the NR into negative numbers and it doesn't completely wtfpwn the target's NR with just one cast, so heavily defensive NTs would be at a disadvantage compared to AR oriented NTs.

That's an interesting idea, however, 25% increments are still way too much.

10-15% would be more like it, maybe to increase percentage with each stack, so 10% with first, 20% with second and 40% with last one.

[Moonbolt]

ohh hey.. and here i thought enforcers was supposed to counter nanos ...
i dont realy see the point of having massive NR if we arnt.

[Hacre]

That's an interesting idea, however, 25% increments are still way too much.

10-15% would be more like it, maybe to increase percentage with each stack, so 10% with first, 20% with second and 40% with last one.

Agreed but I don't think it should be turned into something that any NT has to cast at least twice for it to be effective.

Against an Enforcer, one CB cast would result in the Enforcer still having over 2500 NR. Enforcer with Rage procs up would still have over 3500 NR.

If you wanted the amount debuffed that low then the current defense check would have to stay. My 25/50/75 proposal (or hell even 20/40/60%) is assuming a defense check raised to 80-90%. Which results in a net nerf overall against the majority of targets because only rage proc'd Enforcers would be getting a -1k debuff on the first cast, with a much higher defense check.

ohh hey.. and here i thought enforcers was supposed to counter nanos ...
i dont realy see the point of having massive NR if we arnt.

Here we go again with this. The very fact that Enforcers -require- 2 CB casts before anything else can even be started puts you at a huge advantage over others. So your high NR is working as intended.

Both my and Klod's suggestions would put you at an even higher advantage than you have now.

[Perskules]

all powerfull debuffs like gth/cb/ri/br should be long recharge and short duration like on ensd 10s so ppl need think twice should i cast it or not

[Hacre]

all powerfull debuffs like gth/cb/ri/br should be long recharge and short duration like on ensd 10s so ppl need think twice should i cast it or not

It depends on what the debuff results in.

The recharge on eNSD is stupid, period. There are multiple ways to remove it and MPs are very casting centric. Let's assume that an MP lands eNSD on an NT 3 times (so both removal perks are spent) they're the only class that this should then result in an auto win for. Given that 3 casts of eNSD is a total time of more than 30s, we're also assuming that between casts or during recharge the MPs pets aren't calmed or the MP hasn't been owned in recharge.

You can't just willy nilly slap high recharges on things. A 10s recharge on GTH means a Trader will never cast it. Instead the check should be improved or the duration shortened. Or the post pool emptying negative nanodelta aspect should be removed.

It's easy for a Soldier to say "stick a 10s recharge on everything" because there's not much for you to cast. Casting centric professions are a completely different story. High recharges means anything else is better to use/cast, completely nullifying any usefulness the debuff has.

Against many people, because of how their combat works, NTs need CB. Traders need drains. MPs should be able to disable the casting of the target short term, without worrying -too- much about the recharge it puts them in.

Yes these nanos need to be changed. But people commenting are going to need a much broader understanding of the toolsets they're all a part of. Coming along demanding ridiculously high checks or silly long recharges without considering the impact that has on the toolset as a whole isn't going to cut it.

You don't need a 10s recharge to cut out the spammability of a nano. Nano resist works as a defense against either high checking spammable nanos, or normal checking longer recharge nanos. It doesn't require both.

Then there's unique nanos, like CB, which will be automatically useless with a 100% check. What needs to be looked at in that case, is the effect it has, how long it lasts and how easy it is to land. You can't nerf all three or it may as well be removed. Which would suit all but NTs, but again that's not balance, that's just nerfing.

Nerfs are bad, for any of the 14 professions. There's a big difference between balancing and outright nerfing.

[Perskules]

when i was playing my solja i was casting lots RI on agents/fixers.
CB is like same giving keepers -1k evade debuff what stacks 3 times and cant resist it.
other profs need twink their ar to land stuff but NT just can press cb
or just drop durations on like 15s on gth/cb/ri/br

[Hacre]

when i was playing my solja i was casting lots RI on agents/fixers.
CB is like same giving keepers -1k evade debuff what stacks 3 times and cant resist it.
other profs need twink their ar to land stuff but NT just can press cb

For crying out loud I'm sick of explaining this.

NTs can't just ignore nanoskills because they have CB. Drains/Dominates/Incompetencies/perk nanoskill debuffs/Crown of Frost from other NTs has to be taken into account.

You're able to cast RI lots because it has a low check and is fully spammable. It has no cast cap so you can run around stop for a split second, cast and continue running again. NTs don't get this option with CB. You can also cast RI while dishing out FA and Burst. If an NT is casting CB, they're not launching doubles, triples, IU, DoTs, DM, roots, blinds, nor are they engaging their defensive tools.

CB is only like Keepers having a -1k evade debuff, if Keepers could only launch one attack at a time and if launching that attack locked them out of all their defenses, or if launching their defenses, they couldn't attack and they could do neither if they were launching the -1k evade debuff.

This is what I meant about people clueless about casting professions posting in this thread. You don't get it, at all, nor do you understand it, at all, so why are you commenting?

[Shomsh]

Seems to me like a strange way to approach balance quite honestly. What kind of balance would you really hope to achieve by setting a min 100% NR check on all nanos? Now while i can see why you'd like to see more beneifts for high NR, it does sound like you're simply after the few nanos that bother you the most. Overall it would seem like something very limiting for the game, not necessarily for current nanos only, to set such guidelines that dont really allow much diversity in hostile nanos. Now personally Im all for 0% NR checks as long as it works out ok.

In some sense i think it would be like denying the type of weapons that have been introduced in game since LE. Lesser reqs, higher stats for the professions that cant use the weapons as effectively as the 'masters' of those weapons. Now while they obviously arent exactly the same, they're both tools and ideas that allow fine tuning to 'balance' things out between different professions and their different skill sets. People getting tools they can use and actually work, to some degree at least, is a good thing.

So why ask limitations on how things are balanced, at least on forums where balancing is at least supposed to be the goal. Im sure what you're suggesting would suit you just fine but why not make a little effort and actually try to balance hostile nanos just as well as all other things and maybe achieve a more dynamic and interesting gameplay experience for everyone?

For crying out loud I'm sick of explaining this.

NTs can't just ignore nanoskills because they have CB. Drains/Dominates/Incompetencies/perk nanoskill debuffs/Crown of Frost from other NTs has to be taken into account.

You're able to cast RI lots because it has a low check and is fully spammable. It has no cast cap so you can run around stop for a split second, cast and continue running again. NTs don't get this option with CB. You can also cast RI while dishing out FA and Burst. If an NT is casting CB, they're not launching doubles, triples, IU, DoTs, DM, roots, blinds, nor are they engaging their defensive tools.

CB is only like Keepers having a -1k evade debuff, if Keepers could only launch one attack at a time and if launching that attack locked them out of all their defenses, or if launching their defenses, they couldn't attack and they could do neither if they were launching the -1k evade debuff.

This is what I meant about people clueless about casting professions posting in this thread. You don't get it, at all, nor do you understand it, at all, so why are you commenting?

Completely off topic here, but Hacre, relax a little. People disagreeing with you arent necessarily wrong, stupid, ignorant, completely clueless and biased based on the profs they play. They just dont share your point of view on things and trust me when i say this, your point of view is heavily affected by the profs you play as well. Now if you want balance, which i guess is the intent of these forums, you should be interested in why others see things in these horribly dumb and clueless ways instead of making tired rants telling them how wrong they are. Not sure why it is, but seems to me you're not alone with this all-knowing attitude when it comes to this game, and it cetainly feels like it's something that turns every topic here into a few people ranting to others how wrong they are. Really, its supposed to be balance _discussion_.

Anyway, thought id offer you a lurkers point of view on your work on the forums. Nothing personal, no insults intended. Keep up the posting ofc, lurkers need stuff to read too.

[Hacre]

Completely off topic here, but Hacre, relax a little. People disagreeing with you arent necessarily wrong, stupid, ignorant, completely clueless and biased based on the profs they play. They just dont share your point of view on things and trust me when i say this, your point of view is heavily affected by the profs you play as well. Now if you want balance, which i guess is the intent of these forums, you should be interested in why others see things in these horribly dumb and clueless ways instead of making tired rants telling them how wrong they are. Not sure why it is, but seems to me you're not alone with this all-knowing attitude when it comes to this game, and it cetainly feels like it's something that turns every topic here into a few people ranting to others how wrong they are. Really, its supposed to be balance _discussion_.

Anyway, thought id offer you a lurkers point of view on your work on the forums. Nothing personal, no insults intended. Keep up the posting ofc, lurkers need stuff to read too.

Perhaps in your lurking, you should actually lurk and read a bit more. I didn't go off at Klod. I've supported Soldiers against their proposed nerfs. I've supported Agents wishes to be improved. I've suggested that CB needs to be adjusted. I've spoken out against how much power Nanomage NTs would get from the new Genomes. I've suggested, at a detriment to my own profession, that MPs have an easier time with eNSD. I've even suggested changes FC could make which would enable them to get rid of doubles and triples.

There's a constant myth being pushed around that NTs don't have to concentrate on nanoskills at all "because they have CB". Which, as I said, is a complete myth and another lie from some or misconception from others used in an attempt to get something nerfed. The only bias I have around the professions I play is to not allow outright lies to be spread, because in a forum like this, that's dangerous.

[Ciex]

Yes, please nerf MP debuffs. Last time i got hit with them i found out that even entering BS doesnt clear them so i was unable to buff myself.

[Shomsh]

Perhaps in your lurking, you should actually lurk and read a bit more. I didn't go off at Klod. I've supported Soldiers against their proposed nerfs. I've supported Agents wishes to be improved. I've suggested that CB needs to be adjusted. I've spoken out against how much power Nanomage NTs would get from the new Genomes. I've suggested, at a detriment to my own profession, that MPs have an easier time with eNSD. I've even suggested changes FC could make which would enable them to get rid of doubles and triples.

There's a constant myth being pushed around that NTs don't have to concentrate on nanoskills at all "because they have CB". Which, as I said, is a complete myth and another lie from some or misconception from others used in an attempt to get something nerfed. The only bias I have around the professions I play is to not allow outright lies to be spread, because in a forum like this, that's dangerous.

Trust me, i've read more than my share of yours and other peoples posts on these forums over the years. What I said wasn't about this thread alone, or necessarily you as the only poster who does it. Quite the opposite. That being the reason I even bothered to comment about it. While you seem to be genuinely interested in talking about balance, you also seem to set your self above the usual bias based on personal experiences in game. Now i know its pointless to argue about it with you so I'll just end it here and say that for an outside reader your personal choice of professions is loud and clear in most of your posts. And yes, I've seen you make an effort to see some issues people have have with your chosen professions, or echo the concerns some others have for their professions, but your basic point of view stays the same. And it's just as biased as everyone elses. Well, obviously leaving out certain exceptions that are closer to a pure troll status anyway, as far as I can tell at least.

So overall, feel free to ignore it, disagree with it or call me out on being completely wrong and a flat out idiot, its just my view on why so many of the threads you post in end up in tired rants about wrong the others are. Just trust me when I say that all rubbish I wrote is more out of respect than trying to be more clever than you or anything else like that. I could never, or will never even try to make the same kind of contribution you have in these discussions so I though Id share my view on why it so often seems to end up the same way over and over again.

So peace, love and all those things. I know Im likely to sound annoying and patronizing but that really isn't my goal, I just dont know how to say it any better and I guess it's all likely to go by as a useless comment from someone who just doesnt know any better. And that's fine too.

[Cryfreman]

Yes, please nerf MP debuffs. Last time i got hit with them i found out that even entering BS doesnt clear them so i was unable to buff myself.

No! I save these debuff's for the campers and pet killers in bs as a 'screw you' sorta thing

[Obtena]

No, because you can't paint every hostile nano with the OP'ed paintbrush and think your solve anything with a completely general adjustment to the NR check for all of them.

[Corily]

I agree there's definitly a few nanos required to be balanced. I'm pretty sure (actually, I'm not) that this is about to happen.

Changing the % check to extreme numbers is a lousy fix. The only way to make a debuff viable and balanced imo is to give it a reasonable %check with a decent recharche. I'm not talking about 10 seconds but more towards the 4-8 second line depending on the profession and the effectiveness of the nano.

Casting a certain strong hostile debuffs should make the caster vulnerable and thus at least force him to think before using it imo.