The Shade perkline Spirit Phylactery and other Shade ramblings

[Mountaingoat]

The perk documentation from a week ago (and still in the one today) has the spirit phylactery aao/aad transfer as well as the dot/nanodot durations down to 15s in pvp (currenly they are 60s). It means an up to -711 equivalent evade nerf for shades that decide to even keep the line trained, and an up -861 total loss if the line is untrained in favor of something else with the defensive aspect of the drains being so largely discounted. Consider shades have less static def rating than a crat, even with CiB perked, as well as making that comparison based on the shade's highest evade skill (evadeclsc). We need our drains. Yeah I know the "nerf" is in a time window so to speak, but it's one that didn't exist before if we took the time to drain. Keep in mind how many buttons shades already push, now our drainline will be nearly half over by the time we finish executing it. How is this going to affect us in more ways than just a defensive nerf, such as using other perks/perklines?

It's nice that in the changes the line is broken into its nanodrain/nanodot and aao/aad transfer components so that we can use them separately if we wish too, but man... The number one change any shade would have wanted was less than 100% check on SP and instead we get 15s durations on the perks while the check remains at 100%. It's offensive use was already highly situational (mainly thanks to it's duration and/or mongo rage...), and served more as a defensive perkline (the static mods are also nice) but the proposed changes tremendously affect it's use for the worse in both those regards.

I'm also kind of bummed that the positive changes to shade perks have been so minimal, and not to our "core" perks. I mean we are the supposed most perk intensive profession. Piercing Mastery remains the same. Totemic Rites gets a slightly better heal % for the lower perks. Spirit Phylactery is getting nerfed to kingdom come in pvp. CiB's perk Evasive Stance is getting shortened. Our stun perk Disorient is shortened by 1s. Shades have needs that could be addressed. We are mostly about perks, yet there is no fundamental change for the better, no scrapping of perklines with a total rethink in a positive direction like with crats or mps for example. With SP's duration being nerfed so heavily it could have at least had a lower check so we could ladder up to being able to perk someone and could get off our MR dependancy.

The perkline Sublime Rapport has been seen and gotten a tiny bit of adjustment yet, aside from the stun perk (which is getting negative adjustment...), the perks in the line are just crap and will remain crap even after the changes. They consist of smallish damage perks, with barely noticeable/useful "extra" actions, and a very small and fast recharging lifetap perk (halved in pvp...) and Symbiosis. Symbiosis I have never ever ever used though it does look interesting to at least try (horde effect, +damage when a bunch of shades use it unless I'm mistaken). But I just can't afford it perk wise, and it will remain unused even after perk changes. What about giving shades and keepers, the two SL professions, the ability to have more than 40 SL perks trained? I would venture to say that no one is more torn over which perks to choose than shades and keepers

To end on a positive note, the Shade Touch perkline is going to be usable since it's now based on AMS skill instead of MA skill. So we get to use that giant dd perk which is nice. Also the improved range of our perks will be a big help.

[Notcrattey]

I don't even understand why they lowered the duration on SP.

[Gatester]

Maybe some lines are being shifted towards pvm focus and others pvp? Players have to be vulnerable at some point.

[Maxtrim]

Hmm Spirit touch usefull? im getting a headache

Documentation of the 13th
SL line Spirit Touch, available for shades 1 - 7:

Shade Touch 1: Damage: -105 .. -195
Shade Touch 2: Damage: -210 .. -595
Shade Touch 3: Damage: -315 .. -995
Shade Touch 4: Damage: -420 .. -1395
Shade Touch 5: Damage: -525 .. -1795
Shade Touch 6: Damage: -635 .. -2195
Shade Touch 7: Damage: -745 .. -2595
Shade Touch 8: Damage: -855 .. -3095
Shade Touch 9: Damage: -965 .. -3595
Shade Touch 10: Damage: -1075 .. -4195

so the final 3 are not obtainable right? (correct me if im wrong)

and i presume that the Percentage of target health <= 15 && >= 50 is a typo since i read this as smaller then 15% AND bigger then 50% which wont ever happen according to my mathematics

[mr_road]

Hmm Spirit touch usefull? im getting a headache

Documentation of the 13th
SL line Spirit Touch, available for shades 1 - 7:

Shade Touch 1: Damage: -105 .. -195
Shade Touch 2: Damage: -210 .. -595
Shade Touch 3: Damage: -315 .. -995
Shade Touch 4: Damage: -420 .. -1395
Shade Touch 5: Damage: -525 .. -1795
Shade Touch 6: Damage: -635 .. -2195
Shade Touch 7: Damage: -745 .. -2595
Shade Touch 8: Damage: -855 .. -3095
Shade Touch 9: Damage: -965 .. -3595
Shade Touch 10: Damage: -1075 .. -4195

so the final 3 are not obtainable right? (correct me if im wrong)

and i presume that the Percentage of target health <= 15 && >= 50 is a typo since i read this as smaller then 15% AND bigger then 50% which wont ever happen according to my mathematics

there seem to be a few typos/inconsistences in the ST perk documentation.

spirit touch could be useful.

SP will lose much of its defensive aspect. with SP running and acro cycling, our defense rating becomes decent. without it, we are screwed if the fight is long.

[Lupusceleri]

Perhaps the solution is 15s duration on the target if pvp, and 60s on the target if pvm. With the shade always receiving the 60s duration self-buff?

[XenonDe]

Perhaps the solution is 15s duration on the target if pvp, and 60s on the target if pvm. With the shade always receiving the 60s duration self-buff?

That's how it is described in the document.

[Lupusceleri]

That's how it is described in the document.

Ahh yes.. my bad. So what is the problem then, if shades aren't losing any "static" def?

[XenonDe]

The timespan in which they'd be able to use the decreased defense and the duration of the decreased offense on the target. Personally I don't consider the 15 seconds only duration that bad but it IS a nerf to the current function of the SP line. Shades have been asking to make SP more useable, lower the def check so it actually allows to perk something by using it that couldn't be perked before. Instead of getting it changed that way, it's nerfed.
They looked at it and decided to nerf it instead of considering the change to it that has been asked by from shades for god knows how long. That hurts.

There is no sign to get shades away from their MR dependency so trox shades will still rule supreme.

[Gatester]

The timespan in which they'd be able to use the decreased defense and the duration of the decreased offense on the target. Personally I don't consider the 15 seconds only duration that bad but it IS a nerf to the current function of the SP line. Shades have been asking to make SP more useable, lower the def check so it actually allows to perk something by using it that couldn't be perked before. Instead of getting it changed that way, it's nerfed.
They looked at it and decided to nerf it instead of considering the change to it that has been asked by from shades for god knows how long. That hurts.

There is no sign to get shades away from their MR dependency so trox shades will still rule supreme.

Now that the DoTs and the def/ar drain are seperate, a lower check on just the skill drain could be viable. It would not be fair to perk def profs with nano removing and high DoT damage perk lines.

[Mountaingoat]

Ahh yes.. my bad. So what is the problem then, if shades aren't losing any "static" def?

Now that the DoTs and the def/ar drain are seperate, a lower check on just the skill drain could be viable. It would not be fair to perk def profs with nano removing and high DoT damage perk lines.

To clear things up, the problem is that currently drains and dots last 60s in pvp but in the documentation they are going to last 15s in pvp. It will be a major defensive change for the worse for one. And offensively it's going to practically remove the possibility of perking crats, limbered advs, limbered MAs, keepers and other evaders except fixers (which even MR often fails on) without being trox (also no more MR from sneak...). They will still be 60s in in pvm after the changes though.

Spirit Phylactery is currently the better choice than Spatial or Totemic Rites in pvp in broader sense (at least imo). But with such severe change to SP, I'll be perking something else that helps me more in grand scheme of things like more damage (TR) or root/snare resist and removers (Spatial) rather than a highly situational 15s long aad boost. And yes it will be only an aad boost, since they perks will be so short and WILL STILL CHECK 100%, how useful are they going to be offensively? Dropping the perkline then will net me -150 aad loss and -60 aao loss static, and up to -861 aad loss active. I'll be spending a lot more time in sneak, running away, and have more epic gnak failures (especially with no more MR from sneak).


@Gate, the dots do the same total damage as they used to, but in a quicker time frame. I guess it's better against those that heal more slowly than others though.


Maybe this "itemization" for shades is going to address shade issues, rather than only further intensify them like these perk changes are doing. There isn't a reshuffling of strengths/weaknesses here with shade perk changes, it's flat nerfing us.

[Lupusceleri]

To clear things up, the problem is that currently drains and dots last 60s in pvp but in the documentation they are going to last 15s in pvp. It will be a major defensive change for the worse for one. And offensively it's going to practically remove the possibility of perking crats, limbered advs, limbered MAs, keepers and other evaders except fixers (which even MR often fails on) without being trox (also no more MR from sneak...). They will still be 60s in in pvm after the changes though.

Last I checked (and as XenonDe pointed out) the self-buffing part, which enables you to perk those evaders except fixers, will still be a 60s duration?

So all you really lose 45s duration on would be the debuffs on your target: the DoT and -AAO // -AAD.

[Mountaingoat]

From what I can tell of looking at the documentation, there is no indicator of the self buff part lasting 60s except in pvm with the proposed changes. I don't think XenonDe saw the last part of your suggestion.

[XenonDe]

From the pdf:

Capture Vitality  Player level: 203+  (10)
Attack: Attack Rating: 100% Defense: Evade close: 100%

Capture Essence Self: Offense modifier: 204, Defense modifier: 120  60 seconds
Capture Essence Target: Offense modifier: -250, Defense modifier: -252  15 seconds pvp / 60 seconds pvm

That seems quite clear to me. I am unsure what you mean with the "last part of the suggestion" though.

Reducing the effects on the target in pvp does make sense to me since I think they want to shorten disabling debuffs. The problem is that for shades they need to give, and when they take - they have to give double so. SP still has the 100% check. That on top of the 15s only debuffs makes it very "meh" to use. Can't rely on the 60s buff effect when we need mongo rage to perk the whole thing in the first place...

[Mountaingoat]

Oh...yeah I see that now... We'll not such a severe nerf then. Big fail on my part, can scratch a lot of what I said about SP earlier then. Still worse than it is now, but not nearly as bad as I thought.

[mr_road]

Last I checked (and as XenonDe pointed out) the self-buffing part, which enables you to perk those evaders except fixers, will still be a 60s duration?

So all you really lose 45s duration on would be the debuffs on your target: the DoT and -AAO // -AAD.

yes, the self buff will still have a 60 second duration. the AR boost due to this self buff is 327. less than what agents get via BE or fixers get via LICC + their evade debuff proc.

with its 100% checks, the primary use of SP is defensive against targets we can already perk. the debuff of AAO is a very good relative increase to our defense rating. losing that 50% of the time during a fight means its close to useless.

with the changes to NR checking perks, it will also be useless against support professions.

the end result of these changes (as a whole and so far)... shades see a damage and healing boost vs low evade professions (except for soldiers) and still have a minimal toolset (no defence or offense) against evaders (making trox the significantly better option when fighting evaders).

ps. can we please have the health drains work on hp and nano...? ie. smack a NT under NBG for 5k pvp damage (which gets converted to nanodamage by the NT) and get healed for the percentage of hp and nano the NT loses.

[Lupusceleri]

yes, the self buff will still have a 60 second duration. the AR boost due to this self buff is 327. less than what agents get via BE or fixers get via LICC + their evade debuff proc.

with its 100% checks, the primary use of SP is defensive against targets we can already perk. the debuff of AAO is a very good relative increase to our defense rating. losing that 50% of the time during a fight means its close to useless.

I've also seen lots of shades drain up on let's say, a pet or a green to perk someone in evade setup right after it. PvP isn't balanced for duels, so I'm sure you'll always be able to find victim to run your first round of SP perks on.

[Mereditche]

so I'm sure you'll always be able to find victim to run your first round of SP perks on.

then in your opinion their is no reason not to lower def check on sp perks.

[Greleal]

so basically there are still no option for non-trox shade to perk someone of your level ?

Everyone os arguing about balance. Let me laugh once again. Where is balance if in a duel you cant perk your opponant at all?
and dont tell me to pre.drain on a lowbie please. stop beeing so childish and narrow-minded for once.