So everyone realised Atroxes will in fact have it worse then before right?

[Hacre]

but NTs were never meant to be Atrox.

Says who?

There are a few Atrox NT builds that build to prefer dodge defense, thus making use of Wit, while -swallowing- the other downsides that come with being an Atrox NT, that being heavily nerfed Shelter and Guard performance.

This is rather moot, however. Up to this point, FC said "it's fine to roll a toon as Atrox based around Dodge defense, because of this perk". Now they're changing a story that was solid for how many years? No one should be penalised for making sound choices due to what was available in the game then, regardless of how much sense it did or did not make at the time.

[Odov]

Says who?

There are a few Atrox NT builds that build to prefer dodge defense, thus making use of Wit, while -swallowing- the other downsides that come with being an Atrox NT, that being heavily nerfed Shelter and Guard performance.

Funcom maybe? I didn't say it wasn't possible, but that's a pretty specialized build. I could throw a dshark on my fixer and come off half-decent in PvM, it doesn't make it a clear winner by anyone's standards. I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Anyone who says NT wasn't geared heavily towards Nanomage with the lesser alternative being Solitus just isn't being realistic. It's how Funcom developed the game - a breed that specializes in manipulating nano is going to be better paired with a profession that specializes in nano. This is a fact. It's the way almost all RPGs with a breed/class system work. Funcom in the past has made some questionable contributions to this mechanic, but it should be clear that it is now trying to tighten things up a bit. I'd agree with a global breed reset, way way way before I'd agree on making Atrox the quintessential evade breed. NTs might still find a way to roll an interesting Atrox build, but as a specialized evade setup, Opifex will likely be the best new choice (I'm sure you'll tell me this is somehow illogical soon..)

PS. That statement wasn't directed at the upcoming changes to Wit, however the changes to breed balancing in general. I also don't agree with the philosophy of "No one should be penalised for making sound choices due to what was available in the game then", if we followed that absolutely nothing would change.

[Hacre]

Funcom maybe? I didn't say it wasn't possible, but that's a pretty specialized build. I could throw a dshark on my fixer and come off half-decent in PvM, it doesn't make it a clear winner by anyone's standards. I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Anyone who says NT wasn't geared heavily towards Nanomage with the lesser alternative being Solitus just isn't being realistic. It's how Funcom developed the game - a breed that specializes in manipulating nano is going to be better paired with a profession that specializes in nano. This is a fact. It's the way almost all RPGs with a breed/class system work. Funcom in the past has made some questionable contributions to this mechanic, but it should be clear that it is now trying to tighten things up a bit. I'd agree with a global breed reset, way way way before I'd agree on making Atrox the quintessential evade breed. NTs might still find a way to roll an interesting Atrox build, but as a specialized evade setup, Opifex will likely be the best new choice (I'm sure you'll tell me this is somehow illogical soon..)

PS. That statement wasn't directed at the upcoming changes to Wit, however the changes to breed balancing in general. I also don't agree with the philosophy of "No one should be penalised for making sound choices due to what was available in the game then", if we followed that absolutely nothing would change.

Wow, what a ridiculous post. "Anyone who says NT wasn't geared heavily towards Nanomage with the lesser alternative being Solitus just isn't being realistic.". Really? Apart from FC design making Solitus fully viable with minor disadvantages being a slightly lesser effective Shelter and Guard? REALLY?

You also honestly don't reasonably think that no one should be penalised for a breed choice made, say, 5 years ago, that is suddenly going to be turned on its head? People should be punished for not being able to predict the future?

{edited by Anarrina: removed personal attack}

[Odov]

Wow, what a ridiculous post. "Anyone who says NT wasn't geared heavily towards Nanomage with the lesser alternative being Solitus just isn't being realistic.". Really? Apart from FC design making Solitus fully viable with minor disadvantages being a slightly lesser effective Shelter and Guard? REALLY?

You also honestly don't reasonably think that no one should be penalised for a breed choice made, say, 5 years ago, that is suddenly going to be turned on its head? People should be punished for not being able to predict the future?

{removed}

You are completely deserving of your own opinion, no matter how far off it is from the game design. {removed} Anarchy Online leaves it's players the option to expiriment, which you can openly do, although experimentation by definition is going against the norm. Some numbers to back up my stupidity:

Across RK1 and RK2 for the nanotechnician profession there are:

15 220 Atrox
22 220 Opifex
119 220 Solitus
416 220 Nanomage

I'll leave the speculating about superior Atrox NT builds up to you, you clearly excel at it. Although I see from your signature you went with the superior Solitus.

P.S.
I don't think people should be punished. I said previously I support a breed change option to go with the new balancing. I'm not cruel. But 5 year old decisions shouldn't stop Funcom from improving the game.

[Hacre]

You are completely deserving of your own opinion, not matter how far off it is from the game design. {removed} Anarchy Online leaves it's players the option to expiriment, which you can openly do, although experimentation by definition is going against the norm. Some numbers to back up my stupidity:

Across RK1 and RK2 for the nanotechnician profession there are:

15 220 Atrox
22 220 Opifex
119 220 Solitus
416 220 Nanomage

I'll leave the speculating about superior Atrox NT builds up to you, you clearly excel at it. Although I see from your signature you went with the superior Solitus.

How many of those magic numbers are active?

You also advocate forcing 25% of NTs at end game to reroll because of sudden breed advantages?

You're only clearly in the right in your own mind. People rolled Nanomage because it "made sense" (Nanomage -> Nano Technician) or because they liked the Nanomage cocoon and advantages on Damage to Nano conversion. Things that other breeds could work around, until now, until the proposed changes.

You still feel this is right and justified?

If you're not against a free breed change from FC, why are we arguing this point?

[Odov]

How many of those magic numbers are active?
You also advocate forcing 25% of NTs at end game to reroll because of sudden breed advantages?

More than the 15 Atrox NT's I'm sure... As I said (now 3 times in this thread alone) a breed change would indeed be useful. Simply dismissing any changes Funcom makes because it may negatively effect a small portion of the population is a ridiculous statement and completely unacceptable by anyone's standards

You're only clearly in the right in your own mind. People rolled Nanomage because it "made sense" (Nanomage -> Nano Technician) or because they liked the Nanomage cocoon and advantages on Damage to Nano conversion. Things that other breeds could work around, until now, until the proposed changes.

Yes, Nanomage remains the logical choice with these changes. The other breeds now give different advantages. Everything is changing, what do you expect? People will come up with new experimental builds.. They always have and always will. AO gets boring, so roll a Trox NT or a pistol enf..

You still feel this is right and justified?

What the hell other option do we have? Leave things as is? Maybe your argument is with Means not me.

If you're not against a free breed change from FC, why are we arguing this point?

You keep baiting me, I keep biting. To answer your question look at your previous posts. I'm trying to argue a very basic point that is fairly undisputed (except by you). You keep arguing for the sake of arguing, throwing names around, and telling me how this is going to hurt all 15 of AOs end-game Trox NTs that are 100% in dodge-ranged setups.

Don't worry, I'm done "arguing".

[sultryvoltron]

More than the 15 Atrox NT's I'm sure... As I said (now 3 times in this thread alone) a breed change would indeed be useful. Simply dismissing any changes Funcom makes because it may negatively effect a small portion of the population is a ridiculous statement and completely unacceptable by anyone's standards



Yes, Nanomage remains the logical choice with these changes. The other breeds now give different advantages. Everything is changing, what do you expect? People will come up with new experimental builds.. They always have and always will. AO gets boring, so roll a Trox NT or a pistol enf..



What the hell other option do we have? Leave things as is? Maybe your argument is with Means not me.



You keep baiting me, I keep biting. To answer your questions look at your previous posts. I'm trying to argue a very basic point that is fairly undisputed (except by you). You keep arguing for the sake of arguing, throwing names around, and telling me how this is going to hurt all 15 of AOs end-game Trox NTs that are 100% in dodge-ranged setups.

Don't worry, I'm done "arguing".

My only issue with your post is this: You can slap an unsupported weapon on any profession regardless of breed. It won't be as good. When you start screwing up profession's main toolset based on breed we have a problem. You may have "different" advantages, but there is a clear cut winner purely based on breed. There should not be. Having different advantages is good, assuming they are all comparable. For an NT, and maybe even a Trader, there are no advantages comparable to NM. At all. Giving profession specific tools as a breed perk is not a good idea.

[Darkkblood]

It's more like a free extra you get for perking survival.

Yea, soli genomes are incomparably better than anything else in case of almost half the profs.

Quite funnily if you don't fancy MR on an enf, opi is gonna be the 2nd best choice now.



The goal of this game is to reach 220. "Twinks" are the creation of the playerbase, not FC.

Twinks may be a creation of the playerbase but they have been part of AOs culture since I started back in 2001. FC seems to have always accepted them as a game feature and even added an option to turn off xp.

[Ayria]

wtf are you on? Obviously some breeds are intended for some professions - you can try to build your unique setup but NTs were never meant to be Atrox. I don't think it's fair for Funcom to have to balance for illogical combinations, regardless of how much you want nanomage pistol enfs to be as strong as nanomage NTs or Atrox enfs..

Flawed analogy. You are comparing breed+weapon choice+profession (where the breed and weapon choice can match the profession doesn't) with breed+profession. You compare something not supported by professionally supported (pistols on an Enforcer) with generic professions tagging on breed as if it's the reason "nanomage pistol enfs" won't be as strong.

Beyond that, in my opinion, breeds should have an advantage for a match (Nanomage NT, Atrox Enf) but they shouldn't be utterly crap if you don't match them. Especially so when that lack of matching is due to a previous match being changed in a patch.

[Hacre]

Beyond that, in my opinion, breeds should have an advantage for a match (Nanomage NT, Atrox Enf) but they shouldn't be utterly crap if you don't match them. Especially so when that lack of matching is due to a previous match being changed in a patch.

Pretty much this. Thanks Ayria. I don't know why it's so hard to understand for some people.

Actually, maybe I do. I have a sneaking su****ion the "anti" posts are coming from Nanomage NTs, Opifex Fixers and Atrox Shades. (Or other post fix "fits").

[srompu]

Actually, maybe I do. I have a sneaking su****ion the "anti" posts are coming from Nanomage NTs, Opifex Fixers and Atrox Shades. (Or other post fix "fits").

Boom headshot.


On topic, the game-breaking implications from the other breed perks are pretty heavy too. I still have to find time to sit down and really think about them.

[Xenotric]

Each breed was initially designed with certain classes in mind (bar solitus, the "neutral" choice of breeds) and as such those professions that are combined with the breed that was keyed towards them should get the advantage.

Sure going other breeds should give something to make it worth doing, but in a different and more specialized way that you'd only go for if you wanted to corner the market in such a situation.

And at no point should a breed thats completely mismatched to its profession (Atrox NT, Nanomage Enforcer etc) be completely better then one that is. Nor should the breeds get any bonus that removes its weaknesses or doesn't coincide with what the breed is about.

For a while now I've seen a trend of atrox being almost entirely better then other professions, started with shadowlands when huge health and heal deltas and lack of real difficulty getting stuff on/using stuff due to inflated stats and then Wit and Mongo came in enforcing this...

well its about time things got sorted out a bit more, yes it will be a big change for those that rolled atrox to take advantage of such things, but that said you still get other advantages for being trox, just not the ones you wanted. But just like any major change you either have to go along with the changes or reroll, just because its a change to breed and not a profession change why should funcom give a free change?

[Ciex]

I have an atrox tl5 trader who was rolled as an atrox for only one reason - Wit. If wit is gone ill be left with THE WORST possible breed for a trader. Lower nano skills, abils, lower ql of an armor, lower evades but higher HP that i want to ... keep low. I have a tl5 opi NT who was rolled as an opi for blinded by delights perk that debuffs nano skills. If BBD is changed my NT will be disadvantaged when compared to NM. I also have an opi engi who was also rolled as an opi for BBD to make use of combined nano skill debuffs from NR1 and BBD... Ive even rerolled this engi from NM and soli to opi (i couldnt make my mind if i want to stay at tl5 or level up to tl7 one day, but ive decided to stay at tl5 and went for the perfect breed in my opinion - opi). This cannot be true. There must be a way to change my breed once those breed perk changes hit live.

[Racatti]

Twinks may be a creation of the playerbase but they have been part of AOs culture since I started back in 2001. FC seems to have always accepted them as a game feature and even added an option to turn off xp.

Accepted, acknowledged, yes.

Specificly supported, no.

[Odov]

Pretty much this. Thanks Ayria. I don't know why it's so hard to understand for some people.

If that's what you meant to say, you should have illustrated it better. That has about 2% to do with what you were posting. I somewhat agree with Ayria on her point, or at least understand where she is coming from.

I still think that the breed perks are at the very least logical though, with the offensive/highest HP breed getting AAO/HP/DMG, the defensive profession gaining AAD/AAO Debuffs/Absorbs, the (squishy) highest NP breed getting %DMG to nano/nanoheal, and the all-round breed getting a little bit of everything. The only thing I see wrong is possibly the overall effectiveness of each breed should be adjusted - and %increase nano damage.. That should likely fall into a group perkline for offensive casters if they really want to add it in.


Off topic - if a breed change is offered, I'm curious, would you go Opi for the static 100 AAD, or NM for the % to nano? If Atrox and Dodge was a no-brainer for you, I fail to see why you are making such a big deal out of NM NTs. But then again you aren't even Trox.. Would love to see mastablasters take on the Trox "nerf".

Actually, maybe I do. I have a sneaking su****ion the "anti" posts are coming from Nanomage NTs, Opifex Fixers and Atrox Shades. (Or other post fix "fits").

These are pre-fix "fits" too. Again, breed change is good with major game changes, can't dismiss change because it will negatively effect a minority character configuration. But I'm sure Means will put a +1 to the "don't change anything we don't need balancing" count for you Hacre.

[Gatester]

This thread is full of troll...must store up my chakra to stay conscious....

NM is the love breed, MR will kill idiot evade profs only and do its job against non-evaders or in mass pvp finally, solitus has CC immunity and healing ability in a single breed line, opifex has blockers and finally a significant evade advantage.