Acrobat Rework

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Yup. I agree 5050. And, thats why I'm not persuing this. I don't think acrobat is the problem.

It's important to look at the correlation of what prof has what perk line, etc vs the ranking.

like: youre dead right, acrobat perk line is distributed well through out the ranks.

coon is also fairly well distributed, but, two of top three have access.

How about 1he mastery? hmm, two of the top 3 have access (and the only 2 that have access are in the top 3),

So, maybe it's not the perk lines that are OP'd, but the weapon selection?

Obviously there isn't one variable that can be identified as being the overarching OP'dness, mainly because the profs in general are fairly well balanced, and they all have access to very different perk lines.

In general, I'd say if advies lost acrobat, balance wouldn't be too far off.

[Parranoid1]

In general, I'd say if advies lost acrobat, balance wouldn't be too far off.

i do agree with u on alot of the nerf advy things, but stripping advys of acro would devistate the prof at tl5.... really, i mean monstly any1 with 1850-1900 AR can perk advys thru limber with ai perks, if u drop acro off them then they will be perkable for most people 100% of the time. this dosnt sit right with me, needs a nerf not a profession cripple.

imo, if a perk line of the advys needs to get changed, its the coon line, let them have limber/dof, but not let them have coon + CH to cover the 30 secs they have in dof downtime, allows people to perk them against the heals alone. combination of all is too much

it would be, they have 30 secs of unperkableness, to wear down the opponent, once dof is down limber is up, they have heals CH + w/e to survive till the next dof is up, maybe not even remove coon from them, just only allow them to perk to a certain level, so they can also have a small coon. even better, drop the CH and halve their coon sorbs (from if it was maxed). think that would make it about right. then again this is from the point of view of a fairly high AR prof

[lostlife]

arent ai perks double ar count being nerfed to single ar count?
removing coon from advy toolset would leave them with heals and evades as primary defence meaning nano damage and high AR will be effective.
removing acro from advy toolset, changes evades to mild evades, and adds absorbs (and at later lvs, bio regrow) mid-high AR setups would be more powerful, but can negate alot of incomming damage through regrowth heals and coon, nano damage also becomes less effective due to coon.
incoming heal nerf: should be considered when info is released, from what ive read, i would asume its a nanocost increase (or something along those lines)
incoming parry/riptose: brings meele advies up a half peg. being able to completely negate at least 1 hit (not much, but when combined with the other advy defenses and how there cooldowns fit together) while increasing something that would be like shield damage (for limited time).

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@lost

ya, giving melee advies ripost parry is like giving richie rich a million bucks.

Sure, everyone likes a million bucks, but he doesn't need it. giving all melee profs ripost+parry, and removing coon or acrobat from advy would actually not be a bad fix.

[Pomidor]

Problem with acro is, that it aint aviable on lvl 40 (for TL2 BS) where evades w/o this perk are useless, since you wont get enought to evade anything.

Other problem, which those how arent selfish will note, that Adv should get somewhat DoF removed or setuped on higher lvl - any other change would nerf MAs and Fixers, which has not good times these days - like many said and I will repeat, evades doesnt exist much more and you can not evade most of hits. Even yesterday I had fun with some advie, and i was struck way to much times, compareing my Evades and AAD.

Solution for this is to implement new PERK line (similar to Acrobat) for Adventurers, with DoF (under new name) setuped at lvl 200+ or something...

[Parranoid1]

arent ai perks double ar count being nerfed to single ar count?
removing coon from advy toolset would leave them with heals and evades as primary defence

yes, it would be their primary defence, which is the same as what MA has, and MAs are fairly much balanced at tl5. advy would even have the luxury of a decent heal recharge as well

yes it was said that atm its counted double, and it will be moved to single, but means also stated in the same point in balance documentation that these perks will have their defence check lowered so that perks that were easier to land will still be on that level.

meaning nano damage and high AR will be effective.

high AR and nano damage (im assuming u mean perks? or nukes? no sure) will remain the same level of effectiveness, they will just not have a cocoon to cover up their 30 sec gap in evades (and i also stated not completely remove it just lower how far they can perk at tl5)

removing acro from advy toolset, changes evades to mild evades, and adds absorbs (and at later lvs, bio regrow) mid-high AR setups would be more powerful, but can negate alot of incomming damage through regrowth heals and coon, nano damage also becomes less effective due to coon.

this made me so damn confused after at least 4 reads... acro dosnt give bio regrowth, so i assume your meaning bio shielding line. I said earlier that removing acro would not be needed as it was said earlier that acro is the not problem, but combination of acro/heals/coon is. looking only at tl5 for advy, not completely removing the line for them but lowering to where they can perk at tl5, but allow them to continue to perk it past level 175 for example.

incoming heal nerf: should be considered when info is released, from what ive read, i would asume its a nanocost increase (or something along those lines)
incoming parry/riptose: brings meele advies up a half peg. being able to completely negate at least 1 hit (not much, but when combined with the other advy defenses and how there cooldowns fit together) while increasing something that would be like shield damage (for limited time).

if they can effectively use parry/riposte then that would further help them in their already overpowered state, dont know how it will effect exactly but time will tell

changes im putting forward effects advys at only tl5, as for tl7 i dont know the ins and outs of endgame advy pvp, so i cant pass judgement, however i have done alot of tl5 pvp Vs advys and around other ppl pvping advys and such. so i can comment on that.

not remove acro (its fine), remove the CH, and dumb down the coon a bit, maybe half the sorbs as normal

[lostlife]

point 1: thanks

point 2: Im comparing acro removed to coon removed, with coon nano damage has the potential to be decreased with absorb

point 3: I'm taking bio shield advantages (not coon, sorry i misspoke) in comparison to acro advantages. If advys have BS instead of acro, evades will be lower (making mid/ high AR setups more effective), while gaining coon and regrowth (making alphaing less effective and possibly absorbing a double or triple).

side note: In one of mcknucks "nerf something or other" threads i said limit advy access to acro to 3, forever. The combination of heals/coon/regrowth/acro perks and for melees, parry and riptose is to powerful of a defense for any lv.

point 4: I never said remove acro from game, only advy toolset. As for coon, it should be left as it is, it is a major defense tool for keepers/enfos/engineers (both pvp and pvm), unless what your implying is decrease it to half for only advies which if combined with future parry, might not be enough.

Means, we need more documentation on changes so we can stop arguing about what might happen and start complaining about any gain advies gain regardless of its cost.

[Hacre]

point 1: thanks

point 2: Im comparing acro removed to coon removed, with coon nano damage has the potential to be decreased with absorb

point 3: I'm taking bio shield advantages (not coon, sorry i misspoke) in comparison to acro advantages. If advys have BS instead of acro, evades will be lower (making mid/ high AR setups more effective), while gaining coon and regrowth (making alphaing less effective and possibly absorbing a double or triple).

side note: In one of mcknucks "nerf something or other" threads i said limit advy access to acro to 3, forever. The combination of heals/coon/regrowth/acro perks and for melees, parry and riptose is to powerful of a defense for any lv.

point 4: I never said remove acro from game, only advy toolset. As for coon, it should be left as it is, it is a major defense tool for keepers/enfos/engineers (both pvp and pvm), unless what your implying is decrease it to half for only advies which if combined with future parry, might not be enough.

Means, we need more documentation on changes so we can stop arguing about what might happen and start complaining about any gain advies gain regardless of its cost.

I personally feel that Advies should -either- get full Acro, OR full Bio. Not both. They're supposedly "jack of all trades, master of none", yet they get to train two of the most powerful perklines to their fullest. While being as fast and as hard to root as Fixers. While having the second best healing in the game.

[lostlife]

wouldn't master of none imply that they are locked out of the last in both lines? of course, i think that would be a step to far loosing heal efficiency, bio regrowth, a few k in the absorb, and 880ish evades.

[OfabRk2]

LVL 207 Perk 4: limber scales to 200, DOF to 800

Your 220 MA is not affected by the nerf of it scaling to level.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

wouldn't master of none imply that they are locked out of the last in both lines? of course, i think that would be a step to far loosing heal efficiency, bio regrowth, a few k in the absorb, and 880ish evades.

agree. I think only 800 though, since it appears that acrobat is losing 80 evades from end perk, but still, is a big blow.

I personally feel that Advies should -either- get full Acro, OR full Bio. Not both. They're supposedly "jack of all trades, master of none", yet they get to train two of the most powerful perklines to their fullest. While being as fast and as hard to root as Fixers. While having the second best healing in the game.

totally agree, and 1 of advies biggest strengths is beign able to escape to choose fights.

Your 220 MA is not affected by the nerf of it scaling to level.

who cares about my MA? you're way off topic here.

[lostlife]

i agree with mcknucks 3rd point, if were going to analyze his systematic nerf attempts of the biggest threatsa against the toons he plays, it should be given its own thread, not scattered threw out a number of posts that those of us on dial-up sacrifice a sizable amount of time to find :/

nanos are being reworked right? if they are then there is potential that advies will receive adequate nerfing from that (or enough to make the removing of acro 4 or BS 10 to large of a nerf)

subtlety is over rated

[McKnuckleSamwich]

i agree with mcknucks 3rd point, if were going to analyze his systematic nerf attempts of the biggest threatsa against the toons he plays, it should be given its own thread, not scattered threw out a number of posts that those of us on dial-up sacrifice a sizable amount of time to find :/

nanos are being reworked right? if they are then there is potential that advies will receive adequate nerfing from that (or enough to make the removing of acro 4 or BS 10 to large of a nerf)

subtlety is over rated

If coon is changed so that a nano cast interupt is possible THROUGH coccoon, I'd be happy.

[oldschools]

I personally feel engineers should get special blocker OR cocoon. Oh yeah nerf reflect also. I mean come on! Absorb, block and reflect? See what i did there?
Or soldiers who sits behind virtual invulnerability for 1 minute and 40 seconds out of every 2 minutes. I guess that is totally fine even though it does essentialy the same thing as DOF, Coon, DoF.


But seriously you need to rename this thread to what it really means: Acrobat Rework (PS. for adventurers only)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I personally feel engineers should get special blocker OR cocoon. Oh yeah nerf reflect also. I mean come on! Absorb, block and reflect? See what i did there?
Or soldiers who sits behind virtual invulnerability for 1 minute and 40 seconds out of every 2 minutes. I guess that is totally fine even though it does essentialy the same thing as DOF, Coon, DoF.


But seriously you need to rename this thread to what it really means: Acrobat Rework (PS. for adventurers only)

I would if I could. but you raise a valid point: how about other profs who have nearly the same invulnerability?

sold invulnerable during TMS, ya, I agree, to a point, they hve some nasty anti soldier profs that are like seek and destroyers.

end game engis are just stupid, I agree about that too.

DOf+coon+dof is brutal. impossible to kill during that time, after which you're dead. definitly, there are some combos which seem to have escaped blaance in the past that should be looked at

[Hacre]

I would if I could. but you raise a valid point: how about other profs who have nearly the same invulnerability?

sold invulnerable during TMS, ya, I agree, to a point, they hve some nasty anti soldier profs that are like seek and destroyers.

end game engis are just stupid, I agree about that too.

DOf+coon+dof is brutal. impossible to kill during that time, after which you're dead. definitly, there are some combos which seem to have escaped blaance in the past that should be looked at

There are no other profs that have the same sort of invulnerability.

Engineers are highly vulnerable to perk damage and nukes. Absorbs only go so far, regular hits land and so do -all- perks, Engineer nano resist isn't the greatest.

Soldiers are highly vulnerable to NTs, Traders, Engineers and anyone with a brain and a root or root graft who leave the 40m area of FA/burst death for 1:20.

Now, compare those two, to Adventurers. Perk? No, not while DoF is up. Might be able to perk through Limber but oh, oh no, cocoon. Ok cocoon is down, now lets start doing some damage in the now teeny tiny window between cocoon down and DoF being back up again. Oh oh, what's this? HEALS?

Come on. Comparing Soldier/Engineer survivability to an Adventurer is pure folly. There's chinks in the armour when it comes to other cocoon using professions, or Soldiers. Short of more than one opponent, a doc or MP with infinite patience, or an NT willing to blow NBS, there isn't a ***** in Advy defences at all.

[lostlife]

reason people think engi are over powered is that specials are the centerpiece of any alpha, which more then a few people use as there primary killing tool (as in not just wear down tactics), but, as mentioned perk damage is still effective . im neutral on the issues of engis having blockers, what im against is that thier team gets them too.

as for sold: 80 secs of increadably powerfull defense (which is bypassed by the engis traders and nts), followed by 40 secs of sitting duck mode (some times litteraly sitting...). getting to that 40 sec period only requires roots or snares of some sort (low NR makes them very suseptable), and if you don't access to that, soldiers arent that hard to outrun for most profs.

advies on the other hand have little to counter them evade buffs take care of a large portion of damage (normal attacks/most specials/perks), the damage that is done is healed. during evade cool down coon, after coon is gone, heal till evade perks are up again. coon regrowth and other heals are enough to make NTs a little iffy on challenging a advy.

[Martialmad]

Imo evades should be further nerfed on everyone but main evade profs.
Everyone got too much of it, which led people to use AS.

How come some enfos, agents and NTs sometimes can't be perked ?
These shouldn't be evades profs at all. Give them whatever defense you want, but not evades.
Too many peope rely on it (and same goes for secondary evaders to a lesser extent).

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Imo evades should be further nerfed on everyone but main evade profs.
Everyone got too much of it, which led people to use AS.

How come some enfos, agents and NTs sometimes can't be perked ?
These shouldn't be evades profs at all. Give them whatever defense you want, but not evades.
Too many peope rely on it (and same goes for secondary evaders to a lesser extent).

which begs the question, who are the main evaders?

off the top of my head, fixers shade's and MA's are the real evaders.
--->do shades have ES/DS?

Crats are pretenders
Advies are pretenders
keepers are pretenders
MP's are pretenders
traders are pretenders
NT's are pretenders
enfs are retarded
engis aren't
docs aren't
Agents aren't
Soldiers aren't.

[Hacre]

which begs the question, who are the main evaders?

off the top of my head, fixers shade's and MA's are the real evaders.
--->do shades have ES/DS?

Yes Shades have access to Careful in Battle.

Crats are pretenders

You couldn't be more wrong here, if you actually tried. Crats are -the- profession that rely -solely- on evades/aad for -any- damage mitigation WHATSOEVER. Moreso than Fixers, MAs or Shades. Since Fixers have HoTs, MAs have heals and Shades have an absorb item that's profession specific as well as SHD.

keepers are pretenders

You're being jaded by your TL5 experiences. Keepers have excellent and toolset supported evade-clsc. If you want to say "well that's only one of the evades" then you better remove Shades from your list, as their dodge/duck sucks as much as Keeper's does, only difference between the two is Acrobat.