Perk Actions Early on with up-scaling effects

[sultryvoltron]

/agreed, but that is not what aeryth is suggesting. Afaik, this suggestion is only for shades and keepers.

The OP includes Doctor perks and a group perk that includes Enfs...

then don't do it for those professions.

or only do it for perk lines which are extensions to an existing toolset and not an increase to an already present part of a toolset.

Or don't do it at all until we know what else FC has planned.


What I see people are clearly missing here is

TL2: PvP is entirely regular hits with some nano based defense. Best defense at this level is HP.
TL3: PvP is a mix of mostly regular hits, some perks and specials, excluding some setups. Nano and Perk based defense.
TL4: Never PvPed here. I would guess it's very dependent on the profession you play.
TL5: Mostly perks and nano based defenses and offenses, regulars become minimal against most.
TL6: Lol
TL7: Entirely perk and special based offense. Entirely perk and nano based defense. Perks are as powerful, if not more powerful, than the nanos.


What this suggestion wants to do is give perk based professions a chance. If that is done for any other profession, it will skew the balance. At TL2, professions that already dominate because they have strong regular hits, or can minimize your regular hits, will now have perk damage to throw on top making the fights even more unbalanced. At TL3, professions with good regular hits and specials that dominate do not need more perk damage to make them even more powerful. At TL4, don't know. Ask Reids. At TL5 it won't make too much of a difference, except opening up some more perk damage for people who don't need it (Agents, Enfs, Advys), more perk defenses for people who don't need it (MAs, Advys, Fixers, Doctors), and just barely make Shades and Keepers playable.

We simply don't know enough information about the entire system of PvP and how it will change those lower TLs, and claim that it will all be for the better.

[Aethyrguard]

What this suggestion wants to do is give perk based professions a chance. If that is done for any other profession, it will skew the balance.

Absolutely. And it's about damn time the "non existing balance" gets skewed into some sort of balance. There simply is no balance. Right now Traders and Enforcers (or some class) dominate most TLs. You really think it should stay that way? lol. No I fully disagree with your points more and more the more you post. I think you are just afraid of the status quo being touched. I hope it is.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Absolutely. And it's about damn time the "non existing balance" gets skewed into some sort of balance. There simply is no balance. Right now Traders and Enforcers (or some class) dominate most TLs. You really think it should stay that way? lol. No I fully disagree with your points more and more the more you post. I think you are just afraid of the status quo being touched. I hope it is.

yea. Enf+trader at TL1,2,3,4,5ish
agent is OP'd in NR setup in TL1,2,3 excellent at TL5
MP at TL4.

most profs have 1 perk at TL2, 2 at TL3, maybe 1 or 2 defensive dep on choice. I don't think that 1 more will change the balance, I think more so that it is absolutely essential for keepers and shades to be playable at these levels.

enf has mongo, rage, trader has drains, and every other prof gets waxed hard at low levels.

just need to lock the levels at which the perks are available.. so there isn't lvl 74 keepers/enf with 5 dmg perks

[sultryvoltron]

Absolutely. And it's about damn time the "non existing balance" gets skewed into some sort of balance. There simply is no balance. Right now Traders and Enforcers (or some class) dominate most TLs. You really think it should stay that way? lol. No I fully disagree with your points more and more the more you post. I think you are just afraid of the status quo being touched. I hope it is.

You keep ignoring the point that I keep making. I cannot put it more simple than this:

Your proposal will make Enfs and Traders more powerful. It won't fix anything. Sure, the relative power of Shades and Keepers will go up, but so will the power of Enfs and Traders. Enfs get huge damage perks, and will have the AR to land them. Traders are getting nicer damage specials than ever, and have the AR to use them. You will not change the high end of the status quo at all, and may even make it worse.

yea. Enf+trader at TL1,2,3,4,5ish
agent is OP'd in NR setup in TL1,2,3 excellent at TL5
MP at TL4.

most profs have 1 perk at TL2, 2 at TL3, maybe 1 or 2 defensive dep on choice. I don't think that 1 more will change the balance, I think more so that it is absolutely essential for keepers and shades to be playable at these levels.

enf has mongo, rage, trader has drains, and every other prof gets waxed hard at low levels.

just need to lock the levels at which the perks are available.. so there isn't lvl 74 keepers/enf with 5 dmg perks

And then the proposal won't help change anything and it's basically what we have right now except your TL5 keeper won't be so nerfed.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You keep ignoring the point that I keep making. I cannot put it more simple than this:

Your proposal will make Enfs and Traders more powerful. It won't fix anything. Sure, the relative power of Shades and Keepers will go up, but so will the power of Enfs and Traders. Enfs get huge damage perks, and will have the AR to land them. Traders are getting nicer damage specials than ever, and have the AR to use them. You will not change the high end of the status quo at all, and may even make it worse.


And then the proposal won't help change anything and it's basically what we have right now except your TL5 keeper won't be so nerfed.

Well, I'm not sure about that. It's not about "my" keeper, All these suggestions need to be considered in a "balanced" way, for example, not ALL perklines need perk actions associated with them immediately on the first 4-5 perks or whatever.

However, specific perklines for keepers and shades are long, drawn out and require way too many high level perks to activate NEEDED defences and NEEDED offence at a level which is 150+ too late.

For example (I speak only on behalf of mid level keepers, and I have not played shade),
Having a good damage perk scaling off 2HE skill or AMS on the first perk of SS would be useful. (currently that line is worth piss in the wind)
Having Curing touch (or another similar heal perk) open off the 2ND perk in blessing would be useful (that would give a reasonable heal at like level 50 or something, which scaled with BD), followed by another heal perk which opened on blessing or HM, by level 150 or so givign a solid 20-25% of max HP, and NOT mark of sufferance, which is about as useful as the first aid general perk.

Obviously the heals would need a bit of scaling, but, the point is that the actions are there earlier on, so you can learn to cycle them as needed, and you aren't left hanging out in the breeze as a useless third tit in pvp and pvm between 50-210

[sultryvoltron]

However, specific perklines for keepers and shades are long, drawn out and require way too many high level perks to activate NEEDED defences and NEEDED offence at a level which is 150+ too late.

Then that's what the suggestion should be. Right now it doesn't even begin to address profession balance. All it asks so far is "hey, let's make everyone more powerful k?" It's a simple plea for more perk actions at lower levels. The OP mentions Doctors and a group perk for Enforcers. I cannot support those changes, even if tacked onto a good suggestion for Keepers and Shades.

[Aethyrguard]

Then that's what the suggestion should be. Right now it doesn't even begin to address profession balance. All it asks so far is "hey, let's make everyone more powerful k?" It's a simple plea for more perk actions at lower levels. The OP mentions Doctors and a group perk for Enforcers. I cannot support those changes, even if tacked onto a good suggestion for Keepers and Shades.

Because you are not getting it. You haven't since page 1. That much is obvious. This will not further OP traders and enforcers without countering that with more robust tool sets for all professions including their proposed nemesis which currently are not at all. How are those TL2-6 Crats doing? How about those TL2-5 MAs? Or how about those TL2-5 Adv? I can go on. You are the one not even beginning to realize the full implications of this suggestion because all you can see is that if certain currently over powered professions had more perk options you think they'd become even more the top dog which is against all forms of logic because it is the very existence of the perks which are not available which stand a chance of giving these other severely under performing professions a decent chance. So you think that Traders and Enforcers might be OP? Well then instead of saying you disagree with the idea why don't you actually be useful and list which exact perks you think in the hands of "X-Z Title level" options for both professions should be augmented at their lower level "baby" versions to NOT cause this.

In short, you have yet to provide even 1 shred of evidence to back your claim as I have repeatedly stated for pages now and will continue to for many more until it sinks in that you really just are not getting it and need to start again from the top and really "think it through" this time.

I'll be waiting.

[sultryvoltron]

Because you are not getting it. You haven't since page 1. That much is obvious. This will not further OP traders and enforcers without countering that with more robust tool sets for all professions including their proposed nemesis which currently are not at all. How are those TL2-6 Crats doing? How about those TL2-5 MAs? Or how about those TL2-5 Adv? I can go on. You are the one not even beginning to realize the full implications of this suggestion because all you can see is that if certain currently over powered professions had more perk options you think they'd become even more the top dog which is against all forms of logic because it is the very existence of the perks which are not available which stand a chance of giving these other severely under performing professions a decent chance. So you think that Traders and Enforcers might be OP? Well then instead of saying you disagree with the idea why don't you actually be useful and list which exact perks you think in the hands of "X-Z Title level" options for both professions should be augmented at their lower level "baby" versions to NOT cause this.

In short, you have yet to provide even 1 shred of evidence to back your claim as I have repeatedly stated for pages now and will continue to for many more until it sinks in that you really just are not getting it and need to start again from the top and really "think it through" this time.

I'll be waiting.

That's not my job. I don't have to make your idea better so that I'll finally agree with it. Guess what? Some suggestions just suck. This is one of them. There is no way I'm going to go through every single perk and determine when each should be opened up to every profession at every level and what % effectiveness they should get at each level. Unless you give 80% effective defense perks and 20% effective offense perks, this will NEVER WORK.

You think a baby version of DoF is going to save TL2/3 MAs from being roflstomped by Enfs with more damage perks? You're fooling yourself. There is no amount of evades to save them. There is no amount of heal and stun perks to save them. You think ANY crat perk will save them from Trader drains and a baby verion of Headshot, a fancy new double hit perk? You think that is true at any title level? You think TL5 advys aren't good? Seriously... I don't know what you mean by that one... But hey, I'll bite. Let's give them more damage perks to couple with their damn near perfect defense. That'll help balance things out for sure.

Come on man... it's not me who isn't thinking this through. You want to take powerful professions, give them more "baby offense perks" that they don't need, and combat that by others having "baby defense perks" that aren't good enough.


And none of this even addresses the fact that the entire suggestion isn't necessary for PvP balance. You don't even know what other changes are incoming. This is a speculation thread that may, or may not, help some profs, but not all and probably not enough. From a statistics perspective, it's not a good idea.




P.S. In before the obvious responses of "well just limit what level they can perk it" or "make it less effective". Too much effort, not enough gain.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

sultry, you're being sort of bull headed.

It's not a bad suggestion. At the core of this suggestion is the effort to make two, if not more, professions more usuable and player friendly for more than half the game.

Two professions have far and away more reliance on perks than others.

These two profs are not balanced from TL1-6. (there is sufficient evidence that keepers are not balanced at TL7 as well, neither are non-atrox shades)

If the two perk dependant profs are not balanced, some change needs to happen to provide some balance. The OP offers a way to do it.

Scaling some (professional) perks back, and making them available to (at least) keepers and shade (and possible other profs), it may provide some more balance than what there is currently.

Can we say for certain? No, is it speculative? yes. Is there another option? maybe. If you don't like it, offer something of comparable thought that encompasses and targets our difficulties. Otherwise, chill out.

[sultryvoltron]

sultry, you're being sort of bull headed.

It's not a bad suggestion. At the core of this suggestion is the effort to make two, if not more, professions more usuable and player friendly for more than half the game.

Two professions have far and away more reliance on perks than others.

These two profs are not balanced from TL1-6. (there is sufficient evidence that keepers are not balanced at TL7 as well, neither are non-atrox shades)

If the two perk dependant profs are not balanced, some change needs to happen to provide some balance. The OP offers a way to do it.

Scaling some (professional) perks back, and making them available to (at least) keepers and shade (and possible other profs), it may provide some more balance than what there is currently.

Can we say for certain? No, is it speculative? yes. Is there another option? maybe. If you don't like it, offer something of comparable thought that encompasses and targets our difficulties. Otherwise, chill out.

A better suggestion?

"Hi, My name is McKnuckleSamwich and I play a non-TL7 Keeper. As you know this profession is heavily perk dependent, and at non-TL7 levels they are lacking in offense and defense. I propose that you move the perk actions XXXXX and YYYYY to be available at perks N and M from this line. Also, you may consider moving AAAAA and BBBBB from this other perk line to perks P and Q. This will solve many of the lower level problems for Keepers."

"Hi, My name is Reids and I play a non-TL7 Crat. As you know this profession is heavily dependent on evades to survive. At non-TL7 there is not enough access to evade buffing items to counteract the extremely high attack rating available to <I don't know crap about TL4 PvP but I imagine you could insert Enfs and Traders here>. It would be helpful if you scaled up the evades added at lower levels of the perks, and decrease them at higher levels so the net gain of evades is the same for endgame crats, but at the same time benefit lower level crats. You may also consider moving the perk action CCCCC to the fourth perk in some line."

"Hi, My name is Stabperkstab. I am a level 60 shade. I don't need to tell you how hard low level shades are to play. You should know already. There is no access to the equivalent level of twinking gear because of silly level locks on all spirits. Also, there are not enough offensive and defensive perks available at this level. This makes it hard to kill anything, and even harder to survive being killed. Perhaps you could move all of the shade perks to lower perk levels, and also increase some of the bonuses to the lower level perks."


These are simple, to the point suggestions that do not require sweeping changes to a working mechanic. Occam's razor people. Moving around a few perks is one thing. Making perks weak at the beginning and scale up with three variables at the end leads to all kinds of disasterous and unforseen problems. The entire proposal of a HUGE system change to perks is assinine. It has no place in a balance discussion.


P.S. Apologies to names that I used. If you don't want it there, let me know.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

well, it's what they are doing right now, so I dont' see that it's a bad time to bring it up.

I've seen several documents with damage perks that scale with # perk in chain, AND with AMS modifier, Also I've seen healing perks that scale with BD, max HP and # of perks in chain.

I've also seen FC moving perks around and adding new ones.

How is this any different?

[sultryvoltron]

well, it's what they are doing right now, so I dont' see that it's a bad time to bring it up.

I've seen several documents with damage perks that scale with # perk in chain, AND with AMS modifier, Also I've seen healing perks that scale with BD, max HP and # of perks in chain.

I've also seen FC moving perks around and adding new ones.

How is this any different?

1) They're not % based scaling, like the OP.
2) If it's exactly what they are doing already, guide them. Don't tell them to do what they are already doing.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

1) They're not % based scaling, like the OP.
2) If it's exactly what they are doing already, guide them. Don't tell them to do what they are already doing.

Ok dude, we're getting down to either a fail at communication, or splitting hairs, or sematics, and whichever you or I choose, it could just as well be either, but the point is, good to have you on board.


BUMP!

[sultryvoltron]

Ok dude, we're getting down to either a fail at communication, or splitting hairs, or sematics, and whichever you or I choose, it could just as well be either, but the point is, good to have you on board.


BUMP!

I've been on board with what you're here for since page 1. I've been against a drastic perk system mechanics rework since page 1 for various reasons that Aethyr refuses to accept because they aren't backed up by any facts, as if his hypothetical proposal is.

Anyways, there's nothing to fight about. This thread needs to be split into 14 different ones where people who have an idea what each profession would need can make those suggestions. Better yet, talk about it in your professional forum and get it brought up that way. Theres only a couple days left of nominations until voting. After that it'll be easier to get real concerns heard.

[Aethyrguard]

Sultry. After reading yet another page of posts by you I am even more convinced now than before that you are wrong. I am glad you are on board regarding Shades and Keepers like everyone else that shows you partially get it. Now what I can't fathom is exactly why you are against it for anyone else? I've read your posts quite thoroughly and they simply do not give any valid reason or concern which after this many pages of asking for it you'd assume that it would have by now. But your posts have not.

I am proposing this for all professions equally because having studied the perk documents it simply makes more sense. This game benefits from twinking possibilities and options. Having more scaling actions that begin earlier on in professions points spent simply means more options. Like for example, every profession theoretically could by 220 perk every single profession and possibly even group perk action they have available giving them a incredible number of buttons to push. However, how effective is each one? Or should they instead focus on only a few of them and max them to their optimum potential.

You have not, can not and will not be capable of showing this idea in any negative light because at it's core the idea is fully balanced in every way. No matter how much you try to claim it would OP one or another you cannot in any way prove or show that it would because any post you make showing it to be over powered simply means at that particular point allocation level the effect/timer/what ever scales, would need to be slightly adjusted and once done so it would be balanced utterly.

[Moonbolt]

Aethyr its not a good sugestion period.. i cant be assed to read thru all pages of texts ive tried to keep up with it some during hte weeks here tho..
Sultry does a number of Valid posts btw.
Also this would further the gap between newer players and twinks wich is something that isnt to good since semi twinks/noobs/froobs would go even heavier splat then they do atm and thus discourage them from participating in more pvp.

[Aethyrguard]

Aethyr its not a good sugestion period.. i cant be assed to read thru all pages of texts ive tried to keep up with it some during hte weeks here tho..
Sultry does a number of Valid posts btw.
Also this would further the gap between newer players and twinks wich is something that isnt to good since semi twinks/noobs/froobs would go even heavier splat then they do atm and thus discourage them from participating in more pvp.

Firstly, I disagree with your opinion. You voiced your opinion nothing more and one that is not very well supported in this thread. Secondly, Sultry has yet to back any of his opinion with any evidence making it merely dispensable as nothing more than bland uninsightful interjections every other post as is his typical behavior on these boards. Furthermore, it would not increase the gap between newer players and twinks at all, rather quite the opposite, how could you even think such nonsense? This would enable the average player to have "more options to tinker with" giving them more "generally available tools" at lower levels without "needing to twink gear" to get them yet rewards them if they do. Therefore your point is absolutely backward.

And another thing you might not be thinking about, this would make perks continue to be useful _FOREVER_ not just for now as they would scale up in effectiveness as new stats are added to the game. It would even further reward a person who thinks out of the box and trys unique setups and gives them an increased perk effectiveness with their twinking making a perk that most might think useless quite useful when combined in the proper ways with the right gear, ip, and so on.

If you are going to say "It is a bad idea because two professions would suddenly become MORE over powered and that is too much of a negative to out weigh all of the positives of this idea..." then you had better at least be capable of providing at least one valid example of this such as "Using this perk at this level with this basic setup nothing could stop it and it would ruin lowbie pvp and there is no counter concept that could be added in as well to prevent this from happening". Until such time as either of you two have done so, I will continue to accept that you merely dislike or disagree with the concept but lack any actual evidence or valid reason why the idea is bad or should not be used.

[Hacre]

I think if the scaling is done -right- then it's not a bad idea.

Ie, lowbie slice and dice (as SnD is now not the proposed perk doc) would hit for 100-200 points per hit as a lowbie and have it bump by some % each title level.

[sultryvoltron]

Here's a good suggestion.

Let's give absolutely everyone access to every perk at every level. Then, everytime one profession kills another profession, increase the prof who dies %s by X amount and decrease the killing prof's %s by Y amount. Continue until you have the most carebare, uninteresting game ever where nobody dies, nobody kills anybody, and everybody quits.

[Hacre]

Here's a good suggestion.

Let's give absolutely everyone access to every perk at every level. Then, everytime one profession kills another profession, increase the prof who dies %s by X amount and decrease the killing prof's %s by Y amount. Continue until you have the most carebare, uninteresting game ever where nobody dies, nobody kills anybody, and everybody quits.

Oh cmon this is taking things a bit far. We call this a straw man. I expect better of you, judging by your Agent posts. Seriously.