NT vs fixer (or other none-healing/absorbing targets)

[Axtilmor]

I'm extremely skeptical about Pomidor's claims. I plugged both chars into a skill emulator, and maxed int, sense, and agility as well as the relevant evades. The fixer's base evades were 136-141 higher. When you add perks this number can only go up, as NTs don't have perk support for evades. Maxing out research didn't affect these figures, either.

Pom, you're going to have to post full set ups for these characters if you want anyone to believe you, because a simple analysis leads me to think the numbers are nonsensical.

[Pomidor]

Can make SS for Fix. (NTs acc is frozen). I am to lazy to make Auno setup...

Damn, I am not sure of NTs stats for 100%, but its what I remember.

[Klod9002]

Noone uses triples vs. full hp targets, I wouldn't even use them on 70% hp targets...

Damn, I should reactivate and transfer my MP on RK1 as soon as possible.

[Mountaingoat]

My lvl 110 fixer, with SWS, on Selbuffs (ql 150-160 CSS), ql 200 imps ect. (perks stuff, everything for evades), has 998/800/1015 evasion skills. Nt Lvl 76 has 940/620/920 evasion skills.

My lvl 74 trader has: 965/320/890 selbuffed evades
My MP 74 has: 866/426/890.

So, looking at stats, NTs got better for stat/lvl

Dodge/Duck/Evcc.

So, yes, Fixer sux on evades. On NR fails twice.

Now add the massive amounts of aad fixers get

[Pomidor]

Sure I do.

610 for Fixer (fully AAD setuped ofc)
MP has 310 around and NT and Trader get some close to 180 or 200.
Its not massive AT ALL. Since evades arent working.

For test, I created 110 fixer, Merwina. Close to 1k each evades, GAII, with board and LE research got around 1500 AAD. Mob in Mort lvl 146 killed me. Missed 9 times of 16. That Aint funny at all too

As far my game experience goes, evades are not worth useing at tl 1-4 (dunno how it rates at TL5 and 6,7). So, last time I was redoing my twinks, i resseted on most chars evades

[Hacre]

Damn, I should reactivate and transfer my MP on RK1 as soon as possible.

I wouldn't. Because using triple unless it's going to kill is utterly stupid. You're better off on RK2 if NTs over there are just damage farmers who use it as an opener.

Someone else in the thread asked if we use Triples on Enforcers. I do, in one of two scenarios:

1: It will definitely get the kill
2: I'm bored and have spotted a flagged Enforcer and I've decided I want to NBS gank him.

I am happy for, in the rebalancing, NBS use in PvP to go away.

Hell @ ephedrae, if Doubles stay and Triples go away I'd rarely miss them so go ahead. However, also, if you're dying to IU+Triple (without NBS) you deserve it. No, you do. That stuff is so 2007. That's way way too little HP to be running around with, damn my Crat in a not necessarily HP oriented setup never died to IU+Triple so I don't see why Fixers do.

Or if your HP really is that pathetic with maxed body dev in best evade+ar pvp (no I'm not suggesting you run around in biodome armour just because of one class) gear then you really need to be bashing FC over the head for the same HP love -everyone- else got, seriously, instead of bashing NTs crying for nerfs. Self buffed I can pull 14.5k HP on my NT in an evade setup I can push 18k if I build for HP and NT body dev is the same nasty shade of blue as yours. Triples are so situational against anyone with more than 10k HP it's not even funny and incredibly rare against anyone with more than 15k HP (unless the target got called, but even then we prefer Doubles, as they're better DPS and still pierce reflects).

Kudos to ephedrae for managing to be the first Fixer to actually propose some fair changes instead of crying like a baby and stamping their feet for nerfs (yes you, Fifty50).

Make no mistake though, -someone- needs to be anti evader, otherwise we'll just go back to any profession capable of more than 3.4k def being mostly immortal again and that was no fun either. Especially with the AS nerf.

[Fifty50]

However, also, if you're dying to IU+Triple (without NBS) you deserve it. No, you do. That stuff is so 2007. That's way way too little HP to be running around with, damn my Crat in a not necessarily HP oriented setup never died to IU+Triple so I don't see why Fixers do.

Self buffed I can pull 14.5k HP on my NT in an evade setup I can push 18k if I build for HP and NT body dev is the same nasty shade of blue as yours. Triples are so situational against anyone with more than 10k HP it's not even funny and incredibly rare against anyone with more than 15k HP (unless the target got called, but even then we prefer Doubles, as they're better DPS and still pierce reflects).

1. As been mentioned in this thread already, crats have working crowd control tools, read: stuns/init debuffs etc. thus have a chance to hurt the NT aswell.

2. With current mechanics and CB in place you don't have to worry about attack rating as NT, so u can focus purely Evade+HP if u wish, with little trade-off. AR dependent professions need offensive skill aswell, unless you are Atrox.

3. You can attempt to insult me all you like Hacre, it changes very little.

4. This is not all about low HP and fixers. I had my ass served to me repeatedly on my max lvl advie dueling an NT, and that defiantly says something. Wearing the new AS pistol and being what everyone describe as OP, in full AI armor 2.5k token board, you name it. Coon, bio regrowth, spamming BoL and insta healing.. you HP just disappears... while the NT stand there like a rock. I did like 10 duels, trying various amounts of HP and NR.. nothing seemed to help. This is vs a good NT in % damage setup using defensive nanoes, so not ur average BS setup but still, it says a lot about NT PvP damage potential.

5. Even if you had bad experience with fixers on a keeper (one of very few professions fixer has an advantage over) ages ago, and rerolled NT to get your revenge. And for sure got it. You are a special case since you have both seen the worst of fixers, and you own them the hardest now. Defending you position is a natural thing to do, you got your issues, that ok, thats understandable. Still few people would even dispute that NT def+off+cc ability is out of hand at the moment.

6. If you scroll up a bit a read what I wrote, you will see that I am saying offense is OK, if you where the glass cannons you proclaim to be. But it is so far from the truth when you can tank and kill the definition of OP atm (read:ranged advie).

[Hacre]

1. As been mentioned in this thread already, crats have working crowd control tools, read: stuns/init debuffs etc. thus have a chance to hurt the NT aswell.

You have roots and snares.

2. With current mechanics and CB in place you don't have to worry about attack rating as NT, so u can focus purely Evade+HP if u wish, with little trade-off. AR dependent professions need offensive skill aswell, unless you are Atrox.

Er yes we do have to worry about "attack rating". Drains anyone? Dominates anyone? Incompetences anyone? By the way, that "insignificant" 2.8s it takes to whip out a CB is a hindrance, it even costs 125+ NCU to pull it off at max range so don't talk like it's just fine to run around just meeting nano cast reqs because CB takes care of everything else.

3. You can attempt to insult me all you like Hacre, it changes very little.

Point out an insult and I'll apologise.

4. This is not all about low HP and fixers. I had my ass served to me repeatedly on my max lvl advie dueling an NT, and that defiantly says something. Wearing the new AS pistol and being what everyone describe as OP, in full AI armor 2.5k token board, you name it. Coon, bio regrowth, spamming BoL and insta healing.. you HP just disappears... while the NT stand there like a rock. I did like 10 duels, trying various amounts of HP and NR.. nothing seemed to help. This is vs a good NT in % damage setup using defensive nanoes, so not ur average BS setup but still.

So you're talking about duels, which no one including FC cares about. Because I know for an absolute fact, 1v1 a Ranged Advy -requires- the use of NS2 to be able to stand up against them and have enough time to wear them down which means your little whine fest about doubles and triples is moot. If toe to toe your ranged advy is being owned by NTs casting doubles/triples, they're either using NBS in which case, who cares, or you're a terrible ranged advy, in which case, who cares?

So not your average BS/mass PvP setup "but still"? But still what? But still you're making a point about something no one balances around, ie duels? In that case nerf dimach, shadowbreeds....

5. Even if you had bad experience with fixers on a keeper (one of very few professions fixer has an advantage over) ages ago, and rerolled NT to get your revenge. And for sure got it. You are a special case since you have both seen the worst of fixers, and you own them the hardest now. Defending you position is a natural thing to do, you got your issues, that ok, thats understandable. Still few people would even dispute that NT def+off+cc ability is out of hand at the moment.

CC ability which doesn't work against Fixers and woo a 25s shield that with enough damage, doesn't even last 25s. WOW that's so OP nerf nerf nerf now plx.

Oh and FYI my NT was equipped up to "get revenge" against Soldiers, not Fixers. For every Fixer I kill there's at least 3-5 Soldiers under my belt and they don't whine anywhere close to as much as you do. And a hell of a lot more people can hurt Soldiers, either in AMS downtime, or through it (Engies, Traders as well as NTs). Where's the massive downtime in your static evades+aad, let alone the perks that boost it? I should just follow your example and demand Fixers get a fat nerf bat to the face with their evades+aad (and everyone else) as a fix for Keepers yes? Instead of asking that the issues affecting Keepers in the Keeper toolset get addressed, yes? I mean that's your approach, so it should be mine?

6. If you scroll up a bit a read what I wrote, you will see that I am saying offense is OK, if you where the glass cannons you proclaim to be. But it is so far from the truth when you can tank and kill the definition of OP atm (read:ranged advie).

See my comments about ranged advies.

[X-Styx-X]

1. As been mentioned in this thread already, crats have working crowd control tools, read: stuns/init debuffs etc. thus have a chance to hurt the NT aswell.

2. With current mechanics and CB in place you don't have to worry about attack rating as NT, so u can focus purely Evade+HP if u wish, with little trade-off. AR dependent professions need offensive skill aswell, unless you are Atrox.

3. You can attempt to insult me all you like Hacre, it changes very little.

4. This is not all about low HP and fixers. I had my ass served to me repeatedly on my max lvl advie dueling an NT, and that defiantly says something. Wearing the new AS pistol and being what everyone describe as OP, in full AI armor 2.5k token board, you name it. Coon, bio regrowth, spamming BoL and insta healing.. you HP just disappears... while the NT stand there like a rock. I did like 10 duels, trying various amounts of HP and NR.. nothing seemed to help. This is vs a good NT in % damage setup using defensive nanoes, so not ur average BS setup but still.

5. Even if you had bad experience with fixers on a keeper (one of very few professions fixer has an advantage over) ages ago, and rerolled NT to get your revenge. And for sure got it. You are a special case since you have both seen the worst of fixers, and you own them the hardest now. Defending you position is a natural thing to do, you got your issues, that ok, thats understandable. Still few people would even dispute that NT def+off+cc ability is out of hand at the moment.

6. If you scroll up a bit a read what I wrote, you will see that I am saying offense is OK, if you where the glass cannons you proclaim to be. But it is so far from the truth when you can tank and kill the definition of OP atm (read:ranged advie).

2. if a nt goes full def setup any nano skill debuffing prof can disable our end game nanos, so there is a trade off ;p

4. u mentioned he was a good nt , maybe he deserved to win ? doesn't mean hes OP and needs to be nerfed , u even think ur advi is OP so whats wrong that a nt can still kill u ?
Nt's can't win duels withoud being OP ?


6. if we use LE nanos we live for 25sec max(nbg) , with all the Nano drain stuff ingame we wont last that long vs a player that has some decent DD and those items
And after those 25sec we are a free kill for everyone that finds us while we try to refill our huge nanopool ( takes ages)
Sounds glass cannon to me



not like a fix can't kill a nt
in mass pvp they will just keep u rooted untill nbg runs out.
or start meeping/attacking untill all ur deff is gone.
Oke , a fix will not meep when in bs ...
u nuke it once and hes long outside ur range
With the new FA lub and the AS combo (know it gonna get removed) a fixer got enough alpha to allmost insta any nt thats not high hp just like a nt does to a fixer that stands still and has not much hp.

nt's can't run NBG or NS2 while stunned ya know .... fixers don't got stun perks they use as opener ? or that is only here on rk2 ?

[Hacre]

With the new FA lub and the AS combo (know it gonna get removed) a fixer got enough alpha to allmost insta any nt thats not high hp just like a nt does to a fixer that stands still and has not much hp.

nt's can't run NBG or NS2 while stunned ya know .... fixers don't got stun perks they use as opener ? or that is only here on rk2 ?

Actually man, most Fixers are easy kills for NTs but a lot of it is due to either Fixers hugging low HP, or an inability to get more HP (I still haven't had a clear answer on this). Fixers that aren't "easy kills" are ones that know how to either snare+run or hit the meep button. Having said that if a Fixer finds an NT in NBG downtime, that Fixer can cause a large amount of grief for an NT, pretty quickly. I've run into a few HP setup Fixers that make an NT sweat too.

If it's the former they need to shut the hell up whining and if it's the latter, they need to shift their whining away from NTs and towards Funcom, to get access to the HP buffage that practically everyone else got post LE. My Crat had enough HP buffer to either kill NTs or make them run away. Fixers are capable of more personal PvP damage output than Crats yet they struggle. So it must be a HP issue. Either HP issue (can't or won't) Fixers can address themselves, without whining to mommy that NTs are big and mean and need to be nerfed.

I'm still yet to see any valid argument for an NS2 using NT to "perform better" outside of duels so any mention of NS2 is moot. NS2 using NTs might think they're all cool and old school, but PvP today is fast paced and depends, nay, utterly relies on good burst damage, which just isn't available in an NS2 using setup. Sure MAs and Shades might die to it if they can't get out of a root, or fights with Enforcers if they forget how to kite out NS2. But the root effect on NS2 is very real and anyone with a brain can wait/kite it out. So /fail ranged adventurers talking about duels they lost against NS2 using, possibly NBS using NTs, have no place or business in the balance discussion forum, when they're just trying to satisfy a Fixer driven agenda of "nerf NTs as they can kill me plx kthx".

Yes I'm looking at you, Fifty50.

[Fifty50]

We need to get back on topic here, we are discussing the changes suggested by FC as they look like on paper at the moment. Not current state, current state generally is fine, and prolly more than fine for both NTs and fixers, even tho it's only been like this since last patch for the latter. And removal for AS+FA has been promised, nothing yet for NTs.

I would like to hear what someone less subjective feels on the matter, because this not going anywhere, so NTs shhh! and fixers too..

[Hacre]

We need to get back on topic here, we are discussing the changes suggested by FC as they look like on paper at the moment. Not current state, current state generally is fine, and prolly more than fine for both NTs and fixers, even tho it's only been like this since last patch for the latter. And removal for AS+FA has been promised, nothing yet for NTs.

I would like to hear what someone less subjective feels on the matter, because this not going anywhere, so NTs shhh! and fixers too..

No, Fixers aren't fine, they have their own issues. One of which sounds like access to HP buffing without destroying your AR or your evades.

So far, the proposed changes aren't going to do much for Fixer vs NT fights since you guys run around with at least 60% blind resist (that much aad, what evade profession wouldn't?) so FA/Burst won't change and AS for you is crap anyway. What you need is the ability to buff HP so that CB+IU+Triple isn't a problem for you.

My Crat has made the very best of Omni NTs at least run away if not die, with less healing than Fixers so the only other option has to be available HP. OK Crat has init debuffs but they don't do anything against CB+Doubles, nor perks.

[X-Styx-X]

Actually man, most Fixers are easy kills for NTs but a lot of it is due to either Fixers hugging low HP, or an inability to get more HP (I still haven't had a clear answer on this). Fixers that aren't "easy kills" are ones that know how to either snare+run or hit the meep button. Having said that if a Fixer finds an NT in NBG downtime, that Fixer can cause a large amount of grief for an NT, pretty quickly. I've run into a few HP setup Fixers that make an NT sweat too.

If it's the former they need to shut the hell up whining and if it's the latter, they need to shift their whining away from NTs and towards Funcom, to get access to the HP buffage that practically everyone else got post LE. My Crat had enough HP buffer to either kill NTs or make them run away. Fixers are capable of more personal PvP damage output than Crats yet they struggle. So it must be a HP issue. Either HP issue (can't or won't) Fixers can address themselves, without whining to mommy that NTs are big and mean and need to be nerfed.

I'm still yet to see any valid argument for an NS2 using NT to "perform better" outside of duels so any mention of NS2 is moot. NS2 using NTs might think they're all cool and old school, but PvP today is fast paced and depends, nay, utterly relies on good burst damage, which just isn't available in an NS2 using setup. Sure MAs and Shades might die to it if they can't get out of a root, or fights with Enforcers if they forget how to kite out NS2. But the root effect on NS2 is very real and anyone with a brain can wait/kite it out. So /fail ranged adventurers talking about duels they lost against NS2 using, possibly NBS using NTs, have no place or business in the balance discussion forum, when they're just trying to satisfy a Fixer driven agenda of "nerf NTs as they can kill me plx kthx".

Yes I'm looking at you, Fifty50.

my setup ain't that end game yet i got lets say ... 30Ish add nano dmg.
i use the overload perk and the prisoner robe for more add dmg since my nt is purely setup to alpha.

people that fought me know i'm pretty good and pvp allot on my nt.
(styxor 220 nt @ rk2)

i **** crappy fixers , like insta

but vs good ones ...

i use IU+tripple alpha to try and kill them(before they meep or run), but the good ones got enough hp to out last that
even with overload or my nanodmg robe(ugly as **** xd).
i need both to alpha them (long timer on robe)

If a fixer gets insta'ed he fails , simple as that
they can get plenty of hp >_< i seen trox fixers with close to 20k self lol

and if the fixer uses first aid and battle packs he can outheal IU or a tripple tick withoud their hots and HD, but only good fixers work on their timeing ? if u don't wanna time ur heals don't go low hp

[Fifty50]

Fixers are capable of more personal PvP damage output than Crats yet they struggle. So it must be a HP issue. Either HP issue (can't or won't) Fixers can address themselves, without whining to mommy that NTs are big and mean and need to be nerfed.

What has personal damage got to do with anything, when one of the profs have pets to back it up?

Sure MAs and Shades might die to it if they can't get out of a root.

You have unbreakable roots, nanoes and perk.

[Hacre]

What has personal damage got to do with anything, when one of the profs have pets to back it up?

Given how easily pets are either disabled/debuffed or kited....personal damage has a lot to do with it.

You have unremovable roots, wth?

No we don't. We have roots you cannot rage out of. Not a single root in the NT toolset is unremovable. By "can't get out of a root" I meant they don't have FMs or Ancient Spirit Purges or SD perked or MA attacks that break roots or purifying rods or rods of dismissal or tacky hack or MoR up or I don't do damage to them that breaks the root or....yeah.

Seriously, are you honestly this clueless? You've actually come to the forums demanding, nay whining, for nerfs to a profession before you even fully understand the profession, the toolset or the downsides to it? Yet you still expect to be taken seriously?

Wow.

@ X-Styx, you need to learn to watch HP bars more. If I CB+IU+nano feast a Fixer and his HP bar obviously isn't in triple range then drop a DoT or another IU. You can't just blindly hope that cb+iu+triple works, only Fixers want you to believe that. That does not, however, mean that Fixers are a hard drop, because HP is apparently something they lack (I'm assuming here, Fixers are responding to this thread and STILL not answering my question about HP so I assume they struggle to find HP anywhere) so worst case they just need an extra IU or an IU+DM before you drop the triple.

Remember to press Q. Smart people have figured out that most (read, 99 out of 100) NTs don't press Q when they're triple noobing it up, so you can sit and use the +4k heal kits after you just got nailed. You'd be surprised how much of a difference this makes (not only to otherwise legit forum whines).

[Moonbolt]

a top endgame fixer i think has something like 14k health.

[X-Styx-X]

a top endgame fixer i think has something like 14k health.

if not trying to get high hp , corect ?

[Fifty50]

Given how easily pets are either disabled/debuffed or kited....personal damage has a lot to do with it.

For a profession with root/snares/stuns?

No we don't. We have roots you cannot rage out of. Not a single root in the NT toolset is unremovable.

Did I say unremovable? I ment unbreakable.. fixed. Geez dude, how offensive are you? RL much fun?

[Fifty50]

a top endgame fixer i think has something like 14k health.

This is very breed defendant.

Having a lot of HP without reasonable means to fill it, with current damage cap mechanics is not a good idea. Hopefully this will change.

[X-Styx-X]

@ X-Styx, you need to learn to watch HP bars more. If I CB+IU+nano feast a Fixer and his HP bar obviously isn't in triple range then drop a DoT or another IU. You can't just blindly hope that cb+iu+triple works, only Fixers want you to believe that. That does not, however, mean that Fixers are a hard drop, because HP is apparently something they lack (I'm assuming here, Fixers are responding to this thread and STILL not answering my question about HP so I assume they struggle to find HP anywhere) so worst case they just need an extra IU or an IU+DM before you drop the triple.

Remember to press Q. Smart people have figured out that most (read, 99 out of 100) NTs don't press Q when they're triple noobing it up, so you can sit and use the +4k heal kits after you just got nailed. You'd be surprised how much of a difference this makes (not only to otherwise legit forum whines).

i allways press Q ;p
but for lowhp-ish fixer the inbattle ones are enough

the good fixers here on rk2 pop Stance when they see a nt , wich adds 1K AAD (atm it still helps vs nr perks)
so thats 1 more CB u need to land to perk
and not a single decent fixer is gonna stand near a nt and get 2x or more CB debuffed
running is what they are ment to do ( i got a fixer too so i know the fixers side)