Kill or be killed.

[Sterva]

Crats have good offense with pistol perks, but not enough defense. When we do well in pvp, it's because of our offense, not our less-than-stellar defense.

You nerfed stun procs, which was great, but nerfed our defenses significantly, and now you're about to nerf both pistols and pistol perks.

This will leave crats with a mediocre defense AND a mediocre offense. You need to balance this out somehow, please don't be an indian giver.

Edit: to be clear, a good offense / mediocre defense, or a good defense / mediocre offense (which is what I'm asking for) is NOT even as good as what some profs have it, with offenses and defenses both being better than crats have right now or have ever had.

[iolanda]

You just summed up the biggest problem ALL EVADE dependent proffesion have

Soldiers/engies/enfs/nts arent a evade dependent proffesion , again this problem happens to all evade proffesions ex : Ma/shade even advy .
True tho i was wrong fixers dont realy suffer from this .

[Mountaingoat]

More defense will be in the form of AS nerf. More offense, some minor tweaks but nothing too major and we are fine. I'll take a perk that removes a big chunk of root/snare innate resistances with decent recharge though. And for enforcers to not have 3k-4k NR with insta de-CC.

[Sterva]

More defense will be in the form of AS nerf. More offense, some minor tweaks but nothing too major and we are fine. I'll take a perk that removes a big chunk of root/snare innate resistances with decent recharge though. And for enforcers to not have 3k-4k NR with insta de-CC.

An AS nerf isn't enough. We don't have enough NR to defend against casting profs, and we don't have enough evades anymore to defend against good non AS profs.

[sultryvoltron]

I agree Sterva, something's gotta give.

I'm holding my breath for now to see how the debuff changes pan out and I really hope that includes working CC, including short term player charms with lockouts designed to burn all defensive perks.

Also, I've said it before and I still think it's good, damage-to-pets nano.

[Racatti]

Defcheck on AS and AAO only counted once in any kinda perk, there's your def.

[IHaveHugeNick]

the biggest problem ALL EVADE dependent proffesion have , cant have top offense and good defense at the same time

Sorry, what?

There is only ONE evade profession in this game: Crats.

The others are hybrids , and that's exactly the reason why they have a problem

Also - NT, Enf, not evade dependent? Since when?

[IHaveHugeNick]

AAO only counted once in any kinda perk, there's your def.

It also means losingf off. Oh and don't forget everyone perking Crats with every possible NR checking perk , in addition to a lot of perks being reworked to check nr. Go produce more funny auno setups , you seem to enjoy being laughed at.

[kabulla]

Sorry, what?

There is only ONE evade profession in this game: Crats.

The others are hybrids , and that's exactly the reason why they have a problem

Also - NT, Enf, not evade dependent? Since when?

crats are hybrids as well tbh all professions in this game are hybrids of some sort, except shades and engineers... the problem is that everyone always complains about being able to kill people but in most cases they aren't will to sacrifice to be able to have that ability...

as for NTs and Enfos being evade dependent... everyone is dependent on evades one way or another but, some can't get enough to evade the perks in pvp so those are less dependent than others in pvm everyone needs evades if they plan on soloing. A good example of this is doctors crap evades but, they make up for it with HP and healing ability... personally I think it would be better if they had to make a choice suchs as armor and stuff that buffs alot of HP at the cost pf negative effects on evades or visa versa... without real sacrifice we have created ideal builds and if you want more unique options on build you have to make real sacrifices.

[IHaveHugeNick]

crats are hybrids as well tbh all professions in this game are hybrids of some sort, except shades and engineers... the problem is that everyone always complains about being able to kill people but in most cases they aren't will to sacrifice to be able to have that ability....

Crats are not hybrids. Not even close. Its fact the only profession ingame that has defense based solely on one thing. The others you mention are hybrids - Shades too because someone brilliant gave them absorbs and healing, and Engineer to some extent are a hybrid too ,tho you could propably argue they have defense based on passive shields.

And the problem here is no about sacrificing anything - the problem is we are being done in the ass with on both offensive and defensive front.

as for NTs and Enfos being evade dependent... everyone is dependent on evades one way or another but, some can't get enough to evade the perks in pvp so those are less dependent than others in pvm everyone needs evades if they plan on soloing. .

Actually the current trend, is for everyone to use full evade setups, with the only exception of Soldiers and Engineers. Ask certain clan Doctor who tends to be unperkable with 3.7k AR on occasion. Time will tell how the perk changes will affect that.

[kabulla]

Crats are not hybrids. Not even close. Its fact the only profession ingame that has defense based solely on one thing. The others you mention are hybrids - Shades too because someone brilliant gave them absorbs and healing, and Engineer to some extent are a hybrid too ,tho you could propably argue they have defense based on passive shields.

And the problem here is no about sacrificing anything - the problem is we are being done in the ass with on both offensive and defensive front.


Actually the current trend, is for everyone to use full evade setups, with the only exception of Soldiers and Engineers. Ask certain clan Doctor who tends to be unperkable with 3.7k AR on occasion. Time will tell how the perk changes will affect that.

I'll give ya absorbs on Shades but the healing is actually is based on one of their main design ideas of being a leech stealing life to give it to themselves

I won't argue that crats are getting a bit of the shaft, though I thinks its not the facts that your have lost def. more the fact that most have gained more AR... the loss of all stun perks sucked imo for crats though I can understand the arguement behind it. Stuns are a important part of the crats toolset and as such should be looked into for them so they can take more of a advantage from them. Its either that or make charms work in pvp which I would love to see.

I know all about evade docs but, most only go partially into it because they are unwilling to drop their HP below 20k for fear of being alpha food and having less survivability against multiple targets which they currently deal with. Every profession in the game can push over 3700 def. rating in the right situation but not everyone is willing to make the sacrifice to do that... its mostly a HP sacrifice which imo is a good thing HP and evaes are both defensive and as such one sould be sacrificed for the other but, currently HP is a iffy subject because for some professions the is such a thing as too much. When its should always be the opposite... We should not be worried about having too much HP but not enough.

ima stop at this point in class and need to do some work :P might get back to it later

[Sterva]

Every profession in the game can push over 3700 def. rating in the right situation but not everyone is willing to make the sacrifice to do that...

Because every other prof has better defense using evades and a mixture of something else.

For crats, ~3700 def is all we have, period.

[sultryvoltron]

Because every other prof has better defense using evades and a mixture of something else.

For crats, ~3700 def is all we have, period.

I'm tellin' you, damage-to-pets.

[Sterva]

I'm tellin' you, damage-to-pets.

I fully support it.

I've often thought that an additional speech which sends a % of damage to the pets would be a great way to boost crat defenses without introducing anything too radical (like heals).

[kabulla]

Because every other prof has better defense using evades and a mixture of something else.

For crats, ~3700 def is all we have, period.

in the current state of AO I would agree wih that but you have the toolset to have other defensive tools such as stuns, roots, calms and charms... if those tools where made so you could actually use them the way they are intended then you 3700 def. would not be such a bad thing.

Imagine if calms actually make it so people couldn't attack, stun nanos landed with atleast a 50% success rate, roots held a targets where they are without being broken within a few seconds and then there is charms which is more offensive then defensive but, can be used either way if you could actually charm players.

whats crat HP like these days 18-20k? with 3700 def and what is the AR with with a def + HP setup?

don't think I am trying to pick on crats here I would do the same to any profession currently I think toolsets are fubar and should be looked into because some/most professions can not make full use of their professions intended toolset in pvp where they can in pvm.

[Sterva]

Imagine if... CC worked

That would be sweet, but I have no faith that it will happen. I've played AO a long, long time, and it's been broken in pvp the entire time I've played, now more so than ever.

whats crat HP like these days 18-20k? with 3700 def and what is the AR with with a def + HP setup?

An endgame crat will have between 14-16k HP in a normal (not specifically HP geared) setup. Our AR is all over the place, depending on the setup and weapon type, ranging from 2600-3100ish (being typical depending on the style of setup).

[Klod9002]

Who removed my post? Pets are also to be considered as a viable part of toolset.

[Racatti]

It also means losingf off. Oh and don't forget everyone perking Crats with every possible NR checking perk , in addition to a lot of perks being reworked to check nr. Go produce more funny auno setups , you seem to enjoy being laughed at.

It seems to serve you fine.

[Mountaingoat]

The way I remember it, pre LE I was running around with 2.9k-3k def rating on my crat. And that was right around the super twinked AR's of the day. I remember an MA who I would sometimes team with who would get all orgasmic cause my aura boosted him over 3k AR. Since then I have gained over 700 more to my def rating. The top twinked AR's of today? Right around 3700. Now back then FA's were lol'able so that has definitely changed, but other than that I think things are pretty similar, right above the edge and craving more.

What I'm trying to say is that crats always have been pretty frail. We resist alphas well, but can't stand and tank anyone for extended periods. And I don't want to see a boost in our ability to outright tank people. If there is damage mitigation to be had it should (obviously imo) be had through minus flat root/snare/stun immunity debuffs or otherwise improvements against those professions that we have to depend on pretty much straight evades rather than evades enough to get things under control. But again, less AS spam is gonna be a TREMENDOUS help by itself.

[kabulla]

That would be sweet, but I have no faith that it will happen. I've played AO a long, long time, and it's been broken in pvp the entire time I've played, now more so than ever.



An endgame crat will have between 14-16k HP in a normal (not specifically HP geared) setup. Our AR is all over the place, depending on the setup and weapon type, ranging from 2600-3100ish (being typical depending on the style of setup).

if I had a TL7 crat I would be concerned with getting CC fixed cause that is imo what is needed for crats.

2600-3100 I would say is fair for a pet profession where pets not being the main source of dmg can and usually are a fair amount of support dmg to the crat themselves. I am sure other people would disagree but, being on the receiving end of their dmg I fear the pets more then the crat itself atm. Which is the way it should be when it comes to dmg.

HP is low and I understand to get more you have to give up def and AR and the ammount you gain is a detriment til FC can figure out a way to make more HP a positive addition for the non-healing professions (anyone with non-passive healing)

I think combined armor is part of the problem here because of the broad buffing you get from it. You don't wanna give up the CSS cause you will lose AR and evades but if their was a armor that could buff all 3 with some more then other and was clickable like the combat skirt so you can change setups depending on the situation I think that would be a better option. Again though HP/capping specials is alot of the problems we have in AO because people are overly concerned with having the ability to heal back that capped dmg every 11sec.