Modify Agent AR From Perklines

[sultryvoltron]

fixed since all the other perk lines for the other professions are about weapon skills, not special skills. now its an accurate comparison.

the question now is, which line do you want the 200 rifle in ? (at the expense of the other lines)

The comparison was to give people an idea of what kind of crap Agents can put their perks into. 30 AS? Really? 10 AS? REALLY?!?! Come on FC, fix up those perk lines.

As to your post, put the 200 rifle into Assassin. Put defense perk options onto Black Ops. Do who knows what to Infantry.

Also, you may notice that for a simple 10 more perk points, Soldiers can achieve 200 Full Auto, 180 Burst, and 180 fling shot. The comparison to specials there is valid, hence why I included Special Forces.

[Kopecz]

• Infantry (Group Perk, 10 perks): +120 Rifle, +20 Fling

Just based on the amount it currently buffs, this line would make the most sense to extend to 200 rifle.

[Snoopdooog]

drop evades like ma and shades need to gain more AR.

balance? ;p

[NoGoal]

Now, here is the sum total of every single perk line an Agent can perk that is related to Rifle:

• Infantry (Group Perk, 10 perks): +120 Rifle, +20 Fling
• Assassin (10 perks): +25 Rifle, +100 AS
• Shadowsneak (10 perks): +10 AS
• Sharpshooter (6 perks): +30 AS
• Black Ops (10 perks): +55 Rifle, +65 AS, +100 Fling
• Made (10 AI perks): +51 AS

Total (46 perks/10 AI perks): 200 Rifle, 256 AS, 120 Fling

You should have listed all mods imho. If agts perks were like other profs it would look like this:

• Infantry (Group Perk, 10 perks): +200 Rifle (+80 Rifle -20 FS -400 HP)
• Assassin (10 perks): +200 AS +2% crit chance (+100 AS -25 rifle -80 ddg -50 duck/close -40 conceal)
• Shadowsneak (10 perks): +200 conceal +55 sense (+100 Conceal -10 AS)
• Sharpshooter (6 perks): +20 Rifle +200 FS +3% crit chance (+20 Rifle -30 AS +200FS)
• Black Ops (10 perks): +400hp +80 ddge +50 duck/close +90 all dmg +1% crit (-55 Rifle -65 AS -100 Fling)

Total (46 perks): 220 Rifle, 200 AS, 200 Fling.

[Ebondevil]

You should have listed all mods imho. If agts perks were like other profs it would look like this:

• Infantry (Group Perk, 10 perks): +200 Rifle (+80 Rifle -20 FS -400 HP)
• Assassin (10 perks): +200 AS +2% crit chance (+100 AS -25 rifle -80 ddg -50 duck/close -40 conceal)
• Shadowsneak (10 perks): +200 conceal +55 sense (+100 Conceal -10 AS)
• Sharpshooter (6 perks): +20 Rifle +200 FS +3% crit chance (+20 Rifle -30 AS +200FS)
• Black Ops (10 perks): +400hp +80 ddge +50 duck/close +90 all dmg +1% crit (-55 Rifle -65 AS -100 Fling)

Total (46 perks): 220 Rifle, 200 AS, 200 Fling.

Soldier Perks:

• Heavy Ranged: +200 Assualt Rifle, +200 Heavy Weapons
• Special Forces: +200 Full Auto, +180 Burst, +180 Fling Shot, +150 Dodge Ranged, +50 Evade Close, +50 Duck Explosives

Total (18 Perks): 200 Assault Rifle, +200 Heavy Weapons, +200 Full Auto, +180 Burst, +180 Fling Shot, +150 Dodge Ranged, +50 Evade close, +50 Duck Explosives.

Point being Agents specialise more with rifles, so Agents should get more buffing for rifles, they should not get the same amount of buffing as a non weapon based profession.

Also Agents need more AR and def, adding more rifle skill to the perk lines helps solve part of the problem.

As for sacrificing Def for AR, or AR for def, Agents do have that dilema, the difference being the other professions with similar dilema's have panic buttons to make up for their lack of def if they choose to go AR or they get a significantly better def if the go def. Either way Agents are not in the same situation as them and using the same argument for them is not the solution because they are completely different situations.

[NoGoal]

Soldier Perks:

• Heavy Ranged: +200 Assualt Rifle, +200 Heavy Weapons
• Special Forces: +200 Full Auto, +180 Burst, +180 Fling Shot, +150 Dodge Ranged, +50 Evade Close, +50 Duck Explosives

Total (18 Perks): 200 Assault Rifle, +200 Heavy Weapons, +200 Full Auto, +180 Burst, +180 Fling Shot, +150 Dodge Ranged, +50 Evade close, +50 Duck Explosives.

Of course you had to come with soldiers. The prof which get the most offensive skills from the less perks..

Point being Agents specialise more with rifles, so Agents should get more buffing for rifles, they should not get the same amount of buffing as a non weapon based profession.

All profs get roughly the same amount for their main weapon line. Unless you aren't considering keepers, fixers, shades, etc as weapon based professions.

Agents get +200 Rifle from their 40 perks, keeper get 180 2he from these 40 perks. And I'm not even counting the other offensive skills agents get, keeper get nothing else unless they sacrifice def to get 200 FA and a few add dmg.

Agents don't get 200 rifle from 10 perks like other professions but they do get other skills and in the end, with their 40 perks, they get as much as others.

As for sacrificing Def for AR, or AR for def, Agents do have that dilema, the difference being the other professions with similar dilema's have panic buttons to make up for their lack of def if they choose to go AR or they get a significantly better def if the go def. Either way Agents are not in the same situation as them and using the same argument for them is not the solution because they are completely different situations.

Agents do have a panic button, even severals depending on the FP they use. But they suck.

There's no real dilemma but yes it's the same situation for almost all profs. The main cause of it is the 1/0 mechanic perks have which tend all players to go with the highest evades they can to be immune from most perk damage. Exception being docs (low base evades and high heals), engies (low base evades, blockers and cocoon) and soldiers (reflects+hd).

Giving more AR from perks to agent isn't balancing it's just giving some extra. That wouldn't be bad for sure but it wouldn't solve anything either. I'd suggest you to read your own wish list thread in the agent forum and work from there.

What most professions need is some kind of unique reliable defense so they don't need evades so much anymore. Well, not care so much about them at least.

[Ebondevil]

Of course you had to come with soldiers. The prof which get the most offensive skills from the less perks..

What better profession to compare to than the ONLY other pure Artillery profession...

[Hacre]

Agents get +200 Rifle from their 40 perks, keeper get 180 2he from these 40 perks.

Erm Keepers get 180 from -10- perks spent soon to be going up to 200.

Do Agents get 180 Rifle from the expenditure of 10 perks? I don't think they do if I'm to believe what's been posted here.

[sultryvoltron]

Of course you had to come with soldiers. The prof which get the most offensive skills from the less perks..

Yes, we had to compare Soldiers. The only other pure artillery profession.

Agents get +200 Rifle from their 40 perks, keeper get 180 2he from these 40 perks. And I'm not even counting the other offensive skills agents get, keeper get nothing else unless they sacrifice def to get 200 FA and a few add dmg.

You get 180 2HE from 10 perks and a whole bunch of other cool defensive perk actions to boot. Don't twist the facts here because you have useful places to put your perks other than evening out the playing field in terms of AR. Agents do not.

Agents don't get 200 rifle from 10 perks like other professions but they do get other skills and in the end, with their 40 perks, they get as much as others.

Add damage? Not enough evades to avoid being perked? Yep, we get some great skills. Our secondary perk lines don't even begin to compare to other professions who dump 10 perks into offense and 30 perks wherever they want.

Agents do have a panic button, even severals depending on the FP they use. But they suck.
Giving more AR from perks to agent isn't balancing it's just giving some extra. That wouldn't be bad for sure but it wouldn't solve anything either. I'd suggest you to read your own wish list thread in the agent forum and work from there.

You're right, they do suck. That's why Agent perk lines need completely reworked.

Give an AR line that gives more than 200 AR, and some nice damage perk actions. Give a line that gives evades, more than what we currently get, and some defensive perk actions. Give a line that gives AS and fling, along with some different damage perk actions based on those skills. Give a line that adds HP, and gives heal perk actions. DO NOT give average stats spread across 46 perks. That sucks.

[Kinkst44h]

Erm Keepers get 180 from -10- perks spent soon to be going up to 200.

Do Agents get 180 Rifle from the expenditure of 10 perks? I don't think they do if I'm to believe what's been posted here.

Its also worth mentioning agents dont get biococoon, tons of evades, curing touch and/or other abilities from the remaining 30 perks too

[NoGoal]

I'll make it easier for you:

Agents get 200 Rifle from their 40 perks
Keeper get 180 2he from their 40 perks

It doesn't matter if it's from 1 line or split across 2 or 3 lines. In the end we all get the same amount.

And kink, agents do get perk actions too. They just don't get defensive ones (well if you exclude snare). They could or should but that's not on topic. If you wanna go that way, you have to compare the full toolset of both profs. Not just perks.

I've yet to see someone justifying the need for more AR on agent perk lines. And no, "because we have to go into a full sef setup" is not a valid argument.

[Hacre]

I'll make it easier for you:

Agents get 200 Rifle from their 40 perks
Keeper get 180 2he from their 40 perks

This can yo yo all day. There's also other lines Keepers can perk into that gives 2he on top of the 180(200) from Reaver.

Keepers currently get 180 2he from spending 10 perks.
Agents don't get 180 rifle from spending 10 perks.

Keepers only need to worry about their attack rating when planning the spending of 10 SL perks and what, 10 AI perks in the champ line. Then we can plan where to put the other 30(20) for other skills and benefits. Agents that want to come even close to the AR that Keepers can, which as perk reliant as we are, we know Keeper AR isn't all that fantastic, have to spend -40- perks to get the same benefit BEFORE THEY CAN EVEN THINK ABOUT OTHER STATS if they're to go in an AR centred setup. Whereas we spend, for an all out AR setup, 20 SL perks and 10 AI perks when it comes to static attack rating this is assuming we perk Street Sam for the extra 2he from that line too.

I don't quite understand why you're being belligerent and pedantic for the sake of it. The difference in AR benefit Keepers get per perk point spent on perks that give AR and what Agents get per perk point spent on perks that give AR is night and day.

[Ixiaan]

fixed since all the other perk lines for the other professions are about weapon skills, not special skills. now its an accurate comparison.

the question now is, which line do you want the 200 rifle in ? (at the expense of the other lines)

If we were like other profs, we would get all of the buffs and most of the damage perks from all 3 perk lines in 1 perk line. The other 20 perks would go to heals/evades/absorbs/root resist/stun resist/drain resist/ubt removers/nsd removers/etc.

[Ixiaan]

I'll make it easier for you:

Agents get 200 Rifle from their 40 perks
Keeper get 180 2he from their 40 perks

It doesn't matter if it's from 1 line or split across 2 or 3 lines. In the end we all get the same amount.

Actually you get the 2he from 10 perks and get to spend the remaining 30 perks on defensive perk lines, so yes it does matter. Unless of course you are saying Bio Shielding/Blessing/Spatial Displacement are useless perklines and you would rather have your 180 2he spread across 30 perks that give no defense?

[Gatester]

Agents could easily use another 800 AR.

Given how Fragile agents ARE in an AR setup, having 4000+ AR wouldnt be unbalanced, assuming they land bullseye.

Yes, 3650 AR would still seem pretty damn low in an AR setup for an agent. I dont think agents would go an AR setup as a general rule unless they could land every single damn perk through limber, dof, and evasive stance.. thats how bad the defence is as an AR agent, lol.

Quite true but....

That's why asking for more AR is wrong. You can't ask for more AR so you can drop more AR items to get more def.

Right on target

I'll finish syphering through this thread when I get to work as I am about to leave but, I suggest a new perkline that adds either a massive AR perk, or AAO/Rifle skill that also sacrifices one or more defensive skills.

It would be the choice between offensive and defensive setups, as well as making Mimic NT or Soldier more useful when you have Soldier equivalent offensive ability and need their defensive ability as well to survive. It would not be very strong defense I know, but it would be fair when you can reliably land your perks, as you should in an offensive setup.

[somenamehere]

And no, "because we have to go into a full sef setup" is not a valid argument.

Yes it is.
When agents in a full offensive setup go splat in seconds by anyone and anything and still don't have enough AR to justify the sacrifice in survivability.

[Ixiaan]

3.2-3.3K and I do believe someone mentioned a certain nano that ups the ante quite a bit. and that AR is like what...third highest ingame? Maybe fourth? To me that sounds quite high.

If you want to count bull's eye as part of AR, agent is not even in the running for having reasonable AR.

I think the top ones would go roughly like:

NT - 2.5k AR + 3k NR debuff - 5.5k
Soldier - 3.7k AR + tracer + lpt + tt - 4.4k
Enfo - AR setup with AR procs and challenger - 4k
(maybe 3.8k in normal setup with procs/challenger up)

Agent in a normal setup weighs in around 2.9-3k AR add in BE for around 3.3k. Roughly the same AR as keeper(with aad debuff perk)/fixer(with licc)/shade(with drains)/MA(with moonmist)/pistol engie(nerf plx!) in "normal' setups with debuffs/buffs running.

Are we supposed to be happy we have higher attack rating than support professions? Because our AR including debuffs seems to be on par or lower than other artillery and infantry professions.

[Hacre]

If you want to count bull's eye as part of AR, agent is not even in the running for having reasonable AR.

I think the top ones would go roughly like:

NT - 2.5k AR + 3k NR debuff - 5.5k
Soldier - 3.7k AR + tracer + lpt + tt - 4.4k
Enfo - AR setup with AR procs and challenger - 4k
(maybe 3.8k in normal setup with procs/challenger up)

Agent in a normal setup weighs in around 2.9-3k AR add in BE for around 3.3k. Roughly the same AR as keeper(with aad debuff perk)/fixer(with licc)/shade(with drains)/MA(with moonmist)/pistol engie(nerf plx!) in "normal' setups with debuffs/buffs running.

Are we supposed to be happy we have higher attack rating than support professions? Because our AR including debuffs seems to be on par or lower than other artillery and infantry professions.

Counting Bullseye is stupid.

I bet you all wish you hadn't called me a silly troll when I said that Bullseye should have been a +500 rifle buff back when we were all going nuts over it being a -500 dodge debuff that stacked with LICC eh?

[NoGoal]

Agents that want to come even close to the AR that Keepers can, which as perk reliant as we are, we know Keeper AR isn't all that fantastic, have to spend -40- perks to get the same benefit BEFORE THEY CAN EVEN THINK ABOUT OTHER STATS if they're to go in an AR centred setup.

Agents get rifle from 3 perks lines not 4 and they give other skills as well. They don't have to spend 30 perks to only get +200 Rifle, they also get 400 hp, 3% crit chance, 120 FS, 165 AS, 80 ddge, 50 duck/close, 100 conceal and 90 add dmg. And, ofc, a bunch of perk specials.

Yes it is.
When agents in a full offensive setup go splat in seconds by anyone and anything and still don't have enough AR to justify the sacrifice in survivability.

It's called sacrifice. It works in both ways btw. Agents in a full defensive setup can't kill anything and have crap AR so they need more..

You have to find a balance between the 2 and agents can get good AR while keeping good evades. With a cost in healing but you can't have everything.

Counting Bullseye is stupid.

Not as much as counting enfo procs (especially stacking them eh), 3x CB and sold perks.

Agents also have the possibility to use trader drains or enf challenger for more AR.

[Mordo]

I'll make it easier for you:

Agents get 200 Rifle from their 40 perks
Keeper get 180 2he from their 40 perks

It doesn't matter if it's from 1 line or split across 2 or 3 lines. In the end we all get the same amount.

And kink, agents do get perk actions too. They just don't get defensive ones (well if you exclude snare). They could or should but that's not on topic. If you wanna go that way, you have to compare the full toolset of both profs. Not just perks.

I've yet to see someone justifying the need for more AR on agent perk lines. And no, "because we have to go into a full sef setup" is not a valid argument.

How can someone be so faulty at simple arithmetic and division? Calculations don't die numbers are truth.