Improvment In Agent Defense

[Kinkst44h]

Just allowing any mimic to be used at any time is the best, simplest, easiest and most logical fix of them all

[Klod9002]

Well let me put it this way. If we go NR 2 we will have chance to kill 50% professions with debuffs that kill us, and get killed by other half.

And if we go NR 1 or 0 we will get killed by 50% professions with debuffs and will have chance to kill other 50% w/o them.

So, you are saying - it's all perfectly balanced. Phew, you got me worried for a second.

[Vetusleet]

Just allowing any mimic to be used at any time is the best, simplest, easiest and most logical fix of them all

I agree, however it would need logical lock on it... on lower lvls agents are still good (at least until AS changes but I don't have prophecy gift to see that far ahead)

PS: if everything else fails, that item-perk-actions-thingy sounds awesome :P

[sultryvoltron]

So, you are saying - it's all perfectly balanced. Phew, you got me worried for a second.

And for those of us that don't want to nerf ourselves out of 60% of our toolset?

[Klod9002]

And for those of us that don't want to nerf ourselves out of 60% of our toolset?

Then you don't train NR.

[peepeebedee]

you say you havnt got a defense.. buuut, ive come across several agents in bs who evade 3.2k AR. >.>. no idea on their setup, but ask them, im guessing they are endgame, which tbh, is what we should be discussing in comparisons.

[sultryvoltron]

you say you havnt got a defense.. buuut, ive come across several agents in bs who evade 3.2k AR. >.>. no idea on their setup, but ask them, im guessing they are endgame, which tbh, is what we should be discussing in comparisons.

Here's the problem with this:

AimedShot is getting nerf (secondary skill will have a def check as well). Agent Perks will no longer use Aimed Shot as the attack skill. If Agents want to kill people, they will need to move away from full Def setups and into full AR setups, which gimps their defenses horribly. We're talking 2500 def rating and 15k HP alpha food. Even with slower alphas, a heal nerf on CH will make them even more a free kill for even gimps.

[Klod9002]

Here's the problem with this:

AimedShot is getting nerf (secondary skill will have a def check as well). Agent Perks will no longer use Aimed Shot as the attack skill. If Agents want to kill people, they will need to move away from full Def setups and into full AR setups, which gimps their defenses horribly. We're talking 2500 def rating and 15k HP alpha food. Even with slower alphas, a heal nerf on CH will make them even more a free kill for even gimps.

You are saying this like it's only you who is getting changed, while the rest of the world is staying the same. That, of course, is not true.

[Obtena]

If Agents want to kill people, they will need to move away from full Def setups and into full AR setups, which gimps their defenses horribly.

Well, as someone that knows nothing about agents, but enough about how the game works, I'm going to challenge this statement ... what gear exactly are you swapping to go to a AR setup? If I think about it, most your gear is going to be OFAB/CSS in an all out def or AR setup? And little to no interruption on UTIL/HUD items since I know there isn't alot of AR items for people there that you aren't using already.

So OK, Utils/HUD, minor effect, NCU, no effect, Armor, minor effect, bracers, neck, shoulders, check ... same as everyone else. Alpha symbs, OK ...

So um, seriously, are all agents in agreement with this? Huge nerf to defense for AR setup? Not meaning to troll you here but the link between a defensive setup vs. what my perception of what an AR setup would use is not all that different .... Certainly nothing to make extreme statements about gmiping defense horribly, etc... I mean if you ARE that close to gimped Def, well, it's probably not that good a standard to begin making comparisions in the first place no?

[Marinegent]

Well, as someone that knows nothing about agents, but enough about how the game works, I'm going to challenge this statement ... what gear exactly are you swapping to go to a AR setup? If I think about it, most your gear is going to be OFAB/CSS in an all out def or AR setup? And little to no interruption on UTIL/HUD items since I know there isn't alot of AR items for people there that you aren't using already.

So OK, Utils/HUD, minor effect, NCU, no effect, Armor, minor effect, bracers, neck, shoulders, check ... same as everyone else. Alpha symbs, OK ...

So um, seriously, are all agents in agreement with this? Huge nerf to defense for AR setup? Not meaning to troll you here but the link between a defensive setup vs. what my perception of what an AR setup would use is not all that different .... Certainly nothing to make extreme statements about gmiping defense horribly, etc... I mean if you ARE that close to gimped Def, well, it's probably not that good a standard to begin making comparisions in the first place no?

The format for this will be, instead of Defensive item, ideal offensive alternative.

Instead of notucomm, AI tank / ofab back piece (64 evade loss)

Instead of Hud 3 defense, Hud 3 offense (as AS skill will be less important for perking).. Loss of 100 evades and 50 AAD.

Instead of Ancient defender, Infused ancient defender, and Infused ancient vision preservation unit, 3 variations of the alba combat tuners. Loss of 125 AAD and 800 health.

Instead of Xan defense paragon, xan offense paragon. Loss of 25 AAD.

Instead of QL 300 Left arm AAD Implant, Xan Alpha Left Arm Artillery Unit, loss of 175 aad.

Let's just total this up real fast.

375 AAD
164 Evades
539 Defense rating total lost.... I've never seen an agent with 3.2k defense selfed, so he must have been using OSBs, and things like team wolf aura, etc. The best agents would have about 3k total defense. Drop that to 2.4k, and even less for the non tippy top geared agents.

Who can't get 2.4k AR these days? Were cannon fodder at this stage. So there's your "not a huge change in equipment, no way could agents have a low defense in AR setup cause of CSS".

You could go as far to say we'd lose another 50 evades from the protected safeguarded NCU memory, by trading it in for a 6 Rifle Xan memory (every point counts), and we'd be even worse off.

/end post.

edit : and there are other things agents could swap for more AR i'm sure. I simply posted what I would change off the top of my head by glancing at my current equip.

[Hacre]

There's Sacrificial Ensigns as well, which you can equip under false/mimic prof for more AR and even more loss of defense.

Your post is very well thought out. Agents should only have to pump their attack rating if their offense is seriously redesigned to provide what is basically a ranged version of Shades.

Kink's proposals sound much more logical and something that would make the Agent profession much more fun to play. In fact Kink's suggestions would make -me- want to roll an Agent for PvP. I have a Trox Agent on my account which was originally to be a 207 twink but Agent leveling is highly boring and the outcome is that my NT gives more damage output for kills.

Bump for Kink's suggestions, seriously and bump for your accurate portrayal of the downsides to being an offensive Agent. No one should be left completely defenseless. A ~14k HP Agent is alpha food for my NT. Currently, fights with Agents are very interesting, I'd hate to lose that.

[Marinegent]

There's Sacrificial Ensigns as well, which you can equip under false/mimic prof for more AR and even more loss of defense.

Your post is very well thought out. Agents should only have to pump their attack rating if their offense is seriously redesigned to provide what is basically a ranged version of Shades.

Shades have evades at least as a static defense. If we were going to be the "ranged shades" i'd expect a generally decent overall Evade/aad, but nothing ridiculous, on the grounds we have TMS/CH as a possible defense.

Also, our perks contain way less damage total, and far less stuns / drains, etc. Than shades. Which i'm fine with, but take that into account if we are being molded into the "ranged shade".

[sultryvoltron]

The format for this will be, instead of Defensive item, ideal offensive alternative.

Instead of notucomm, AI tank / ofab back piece (64 evade loss)

Instead of Hud 3 defense, Hud 3 offense (as AS skill will be less important for perking).. Loss of 100 evades and 50 AAD.

Instead of Ancient defender, Infused ancient defender, and Infused ancient vision preservation unit, 3 variations of the alba combat tuners. Loss of 125 AAD and 800 health.

Instead of Xan defense paragon, xan offense paragon. Loss of 25 AAD.

Instead of QL 300 Left arm AAD Implant, Xan Alpha Left Arm Artillery Unit, loss of 175 aad.

Let's just total this up real fast.

375 AAD
164 Evades
539 Defense rating total lost.... I've never seen an agent with 3.2k defense selfed, so he must have been using OSBs, and things like team wolf aura, etc. The best agents would have about 3k total defense. Drop that to 2.4k, and even less for the non tippy top geared agents.

Who can't get 2.4k AR these days? Were cannon fodder at this stage. So there's your "not a huge change in equipment, no way could agents have a low defense in AR setup cause of CSS".

You could go as far to say we'd lose another 50 evades from the protected safeguarded NCU memory, by trading it in for a 6 Rifle Xan memory (every point counts), and we'd be even worse off.

/end post.

edit : and there are other things agents could swap for more AR i'm sure. I simply posted what I would change off the top of my head by glancing at my current equip.

Spot on post. I couldn't have put it better myself.

You are saying this like it's only you who is getting changed, while the rest of the world is staying the same. That, of course, is not true.

Please enlighten me Klod, what changes are there on the table for MPs that will force you to lose ~550 defense and 5-7k hp, while pushing only 3300 AR as a pure Artillery profession?

[Hacre]

Shades have evades at least as a static defense. If we were going to be the "ranged shades" i'd expect a generally decent overall Evade/aad, but nothing ridiculous, on the grounds we have TMS/CH as a possible defense.

Also, our perks contain way less damage total, and far less stuns / drains, etc. Than shades. Which i'm fine with, but take that into account if we are being molded into the "ranged shade".

Oh I know this. I figure as a Shade can have a strong Evade Clsc defense (their dodge sucks almost as bad as Keepers, almost because they have Limber/DoF) then an Agent in a damage/assassin setup should get good dodge or dodge/duck defense.

[Lupusceleri]

hai Lupus

Hi Klod.

I have to confess, reading the amount of incorrect bull**** being thrown around about Agents on the forums makes me die a little inside.

Let's start off with some Myth Busters tonight:

Why? You being susceptible to debuffs is my only bet to kill you guys. And you can even make NR setup (here's the resistance you ask for) that can piss debuffers off and make you unkillable, if you know the ropes (hai Lupus ).

The NR setup you're talking about is ~2.3k NR for an endgame Agent - including Notum Repulsor 1. I've been there done that with NR2 setups, and it's very simple Klod: they're not viable anymore, unless you've got a bunch of buffwhores with you in BS. The only reason I still have the option to perk NR2 on my Agent is for duels: buff up in NR0/NR1, perk NR2, and fight.

Also, as you are well aware, NR is "working as intended (tm)". While yeah, seeing a couple countered nanos sucks for the caster, just one land is enough to kill us and I guarantee you that's eventually going to happen!

Now let's take into account that MP nanoskills aren't exactly shabby, which means they have a very decent chance of debuffing you. I'll refer you to the MP forums where they have a very nice estimation of landing rates based on nanoskills and NR values.

Agent defense should be being like a ranged Shade, attack from sneak (I'd hope that the AS allows you to execute it from sneak and only unsneak you once the damage is dealt), with a load of damage that if the target doesn't react well enough/quickly enough or a team mate doesn't save their butt, they end up dead.

Not going to happen. For one, every damage perk will have a 2s execution time so between the start of the fight and the actual death of your opponent you can go make a sammich, drink some coffee, take a crap, then come back to your computer and still be alive. The current dev team obviously wants to move away from Alpha Online.

Second, if Agents were able to actually kill anyone before they are able to react, peoples would cry a river of collective tears so huge I'm pretty sure Oslo sea level would rise high enough to flood the Funcom HQ.

you say you havnt got a defense.. buuut, ive come across several agents in bs who evade 3.2k AR. >.>. no idea on their setup, but ask them, im guessing they are endgame, which tbh, is what we should be discussing in comparisons.

I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this one. You're a RK2 Omni - which means the Agents you're fighting in BS have no TL7 towers. I'm sitting at 2950ish def with the setup from my siggie (including a +55 def from Precognition and a +44 from a QL150 Transfer tower), with room for another 50ish def. That gets me to 3k def.

The only way I can see a RK2 Clan agent push 3.2k def is:
a) Get 12man buff perma, and swap to Ofab Gloves, Dancing King boots, Mystical Shirt, then use the prof HH@B to get 3230ish evade-def for 20 seconds.

Reasonable? Not really. Any endgame Agent is going to be running with CSS and optionally eJathos chest. Swaptime on Boots is too long to do them on-the-fly. Temporary items are, well, temporary. I don't know how things stand for other PvPers, but I don't like PvM enough to do a 12 man run every 5 hours.

b) The above, but Reduce Inertia instead of TP Soldier for rrfe landing you at a static 3.2kish def (rather than for 20s with Prof HHAB).

You'd have to be crazy to choose 65 evades over 30% reflect, when the enf is going to perk you anyway if they really want to.

c) Team a Bureaucrat, Adventurer, or Keeper.

Then again, you could team your friendly neighborhood Bureaucrat/Keeper/Trader too if we're going to use that line of reasoning.

----

Did I mention I love Marinegent's post? Give 'em hell!

To finalize this post I'll give a few linkies:

- Mimic opens up item to use for "perks".
- The CH debate is a must-read, very good thread.
- Mimic acting as enhancement, or replacement of our toolset?
- Attach perks to Mimic (how-to)

[Marinegent]

Oh I know this. I figure as a Shade can have a strong Evade Clsc defense (their dodge sucks almost as bad as Keepers, almost because they have Limber/DoF) then an Agent in a damage/assassin setup should get good dodge or dodge/duck defense.

Glad to see we are in agreement.

[peepeebedee]

well argued Lupis . "now i need to duel a few agents"

[Klod9002]

Please enlighten me Klod, what changes are there on the table for MPs that will force you to lose ~550 defense and 5-7k hp, while pushing only 3300 AR as a pure Artillery profession?

Is that static 3300 AR you are talking about? If so, that's a hefty amount.

Hi Klod.

The NR setup you're talking about is ~2.3k NR for an endgame Agent - including Notum Repulsor 1. I've been there done that with NR2 setups, and it's very simple Klod: they're not viable anymore, unless you've got a bunch of buffwhores with you in BS. The only reason I still have the option to perk NR2 on my Agent is for duels: buff up in NR0/NR1, perk NR2, and fight.

That's enough to resist DWL from most of bow MPs and to counter pretty much everything but GTH and RI, the only two devastating debuff nanos that have stupidly low recharge.

[MyGift]

@Lupus nicely said

Speaking about that 3k def we agent can have i dont need to say how pointless it is now with 80% check on pistols which 70% of AO population use right now and other 30% are Enfs MAs Keepers who can perk us anyways cause of 3k+ ar.

[sultryvoltron]

Is that static 3300 AR you are talking about? If so, that's a hefty amount.

It's a horribly low amount when you consider how much is given up for it, and that it is a 100% perfectly ideal AR setup that gives up everything for more offense. The only comparable Artillery ONLY class is Soldiers. Go ask them how much AR they can get without sacrificing much of their defense.