When are you going to rebalance Shades

[-XeI20-]

I appreciate that you copy pasted our perklines into the perk changes document so Shades would feel 'included'. I am however wondering when you'll actually do something which rebalances the profession. If you need any tips for decent ideas I'm sure I could find some with a little forum searching. An eta would be nice seeing as I've kind of been waiting for this to happen the past year.

[Mavritanic]

TL7 shades enough good in PvP. Need more love for TL4-TL5 shades

[Superflare]

I appreciate that you copy pasted our perklines into the perk changes document so Shades would feel 'included'. I am however wondering when you'll actually do something which rebalances the profession. If you need any tips for decent ideas I'm sure I could find some with a little forum searching. An eta would be nice seeing as I've kind of been waiting for this to happen the past year.

Do some copy paste and change blur and sp please

[NoGoal]

In case you didn't notice, all shades perk actions will now have the same damage type as your main hand weapon. That's a pretty good change considering TR and SP are cold and unknown atm iirc.

It's a bit hard to make Shades perks better. They are already extremely powerful and on a fast recharge. Only changes I could see is breaking TR/SP chains like they did for PM.

If shades need love it's not from perks imho.

[Mereditche]

Shades need perks that land.

[-XeI20-]

Changing the dmg type on TR perks was the last thing on every Shades mind. I could care less about TR in PvP. I wanted changes to SP, as did every other Shade in existence!!!! I wanted some tweaks to our CC woes! I wanted a tweak to blur! I didn't want diffuse to have more healing and most certainly didn't want the dmg perkline we actually perk into for PVP nerfed.

I wanted something like this.
It would rebalance the profession to where Trox is not the breed you have to roll. To where breed is a choice determining playstyle and not playability. But I suppose it's too much to ask FC to actually properly dev a minority profession. I suppose I should just be happy Shades weren't outrighted ignored! At least they changed the dmg types on a perkline Shades don't perk for a PvP setup. /rollseyes

[Notcrattey]

At least they changed the dmg types on a perkline Shades don't perk for a PvP setup. /rollseyes

yay!

[-XeI20-]

Effing pissed at the "Not Shade" tag that seems to have been placed on PvP rebalancing. You guys realize Shades don't possess the defenses to have an alpha 'fail'. You guys realize an extra second on hecatomb will have that happen alot right? Currently 2 enfs can splat a Shade before he can even click hecatomb!!

Are you devs going to actually /try on Shades when rebalancing? Are you going to even attempt to address the breed dysfunction plaguing the Shade prof? More importantly, are you even going to give a go at addressing what causes that breed dysfunction?

I see 80% and 50% checks on dmg perks while our debuffs are still at 100% and 95% ffs! WTH is going on over there?


Scenarios you should look at while considering Shades and rebalancing 'efforts':

SP drains are necessary to perk many professions. Not only this, but often SP drains+nanite deprevation proc+blur+(the best endgame gear possible for a Shade) is necessary to perk some profs. Even then, it is possible to survive our assault if they use their toolset properly.

SP drains are necessary to do anything whatsoever if there's people teamed with a crat. Our SP perks can be interupted by a fear or being rooted. Seeing as we're unable to contribute in any meaningful way our best option then is often to run away until SP is out of recharge. By that time the fight will most likely be over.

Shades can/do get OD'd by professions which offer support tools considered necessary to encounters. Shades offer only dmg to an encounter. I don't see docs getting outhealed. I don't see profs buffing aad more then crats, nor having better init debuff capabilities. None mez better then crats. Engis offer a variety of tools to encounters all of which are useful. Shades, they offer only dmg, they can be od'd. Change this.

Solutions:

Have significant fear/root/snare resistance added to the positive NCU effects of SP drains. (each coming from the aad/aao leeches in these amounts 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%.)

Or

Extend the positive NCU effects of SP drains to 3-4 minutes.

See this for my idea of fixing Shades ability to contribute in PvM.

I'd very much like to see what I detailed in my previous post be integrated in some manner in addressing breed dysfunction in the Shade prof.


You've presented yourself Means as if you're willing to do the hard things to fix AO. You've been complemented for taking on issues previous GD's were unwilling to attempt addressing. Your predecessors have had a long history of ignoring Shades due to their complexity. Of giving the profession the bare minimum of attention due to this. Perhaps this is just a cost/benefit analysis.

Regardless of what causes your inaction in addressing these issues Shades have, not doing so will result in a complete and total failure in doing any rebalance for the profession.

Breed should be a determining factor in playstyle, not playability. This could easily be so with Shades. And until it is so, you will have failed in your attempt to balance Shades in PvP.

[Keex]

stop whining about being trox. as if you didn't know before you picked that ^_^

otherwise there is truth in your post. low def check on off/def-drain would be nice. and 2 sec hecatomb is definatly retarded.

i actually liked playing shade in pvp. with a good def setup i was able to outlast a lot of damage. problem is, with a good def setup you can't kill anyone not green or himself at low-def setup. not being able to perk NTs, enf, bow mps and so on sucks, if your main damage comes from perks.
a low def check for sp line would help there. you could outlast damage while debuffing and then fight back. would give shade pvp some depth instead of mongo-rage-alpha-ruuuun.

[mr_road]

additional issues...

shade healing in pvm is decent for a high evade proffession. the heals from TR are effectively halved in PVP and then reflects can take a chunk out as well. would be nice to see the health drain perks have 2 times the efficiency when against PVP targets - the essence of a player is more nourishing to a shade than a normal NPC mob.

a shade's defense is strongly coupled to offense. if you we can't use our offense, our defense suffers significantly as well.

attack ratings and defense ratings have gone up significantly since SL was released, yet the percetage effect of the SP line has stayed the same.

token boards ? sided shades are handicapped neutrals.

other idea's:
move Disorientate to Sublime Rapport 1 to free up 5 perks for PVP shades... for SD or whatever.

[-XeI20-]

stop whining about being trox. as if you didn't know before you picked that ^_^

I'm merely pointing out that removing the reason people roll trox Shades, MR, without negating the reason why they feel they need MR would not solve the breed dysfunction. That more must be done to do so. If more is not done then we would simply go from seeing primarily trox Shades to just seeing less Shades altogether and those you saw would be opi as opposed to trox. That scenario doesn't have to take place.

I want breed choice for Shades (and preferably all prof) to be done out of preference. To me, adding the xtra mods to Spirits I outlined fits the profiles of each breed, as well as the reason people rolled their Shade X breed.

[NoGoal]

Effing pissed at the "Not Shade" tag that seems to have been placed on PvP rebalancing. You guys realize Shades don't possess the defenses to have an alpha 'fail'. You guys realize an extra second on hecatomb will have that happen alot right? Currently 2 enfs can splat a Shade before he can even click hecatomb!!

And 2 soldiers will kill 1 enfo in a sec then 2 NTs will kill 1 sold in a sec then ... I won't even say which profs 2 shades can alpha before their target can even react.

SP drains are necessary to perk many professions. Not only this, but often SP drains+nanite deprevation proc+blur+(the best endgame gear possible for a Shade) is necessary to perk some profs. Even then, it is possible to survive our assault if they use their toolset properly.

It's damn unfair that evades professions have evades!!1 Don't forget that allowing perks to land more often on evades professions will affect shades too.

SP drains are necessary to do anything whatsoever if there's people teamed with a crat. Our SP perks can be interupted by a fear or being rooted. Seeing as we're unable to contribute in any meaningful way our best option then is often to run away until SP is out of recharge. By that time the fight will most likely be over.

It's the same for any other perk profession. Don't forget that you can get a team too.

Shades can/do get OD'd by professions which offer support tools considered necessary to encounters. Shades offer only dmg to an encounter. I don't see docs getting outhealed. I don't see profs buffing aad more then crats, nor having better init debuff capabilities. None mez better then crats. Engis offer a variety of tools to encounters all of which are useful. Shades, they offer only dmg, they can be od'd. Change this.

Shades also have stun procs, init debuff procs, nano drains, aao drains, aad drains, ...

Solutions:

Have significant fear/root/snare resistance added to the positive NCU effects of SP drains. (each coming from the aad/aao leeches in these amounts 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%.)

Solution to SP is to give shades fear/root/snare resist?

Extend the positive NCU effects of SP drains to 3-4 minutes.

Why not but then they should increase the recharge as well.

[Keex]

you can't have both init debuff proc and stun proc. those are the same nanoline.

[MyGift]

Trox shades are fine, all others are funny in pvp...

[-XeI20-]

And 2 soldiers will kill 1 enfo in a sec then 2 NTs will kill 1 sold in a sec then ... I won't even say which profs 2 shades can alpha before their target can even react.

You mean 2 100% endgame over 6bil invested MR using Atrox Shades which know how to PvP and get lucky by not getting aoe rooted? Ya, fine you're right there. Cept I was talking about enfos in general. Any nab who can ip 1hb and put a half-effort into getting AR. Nice that you compare what two Endgame Trox Shades can do to some of the easiest prof vs prof combos. You know our perks have 100% checks right? You do realize I was even only talking about what a Shade could do, as in, no breed influence whatsoever?

I'd also like to point out over the duration of halloween PvP I've seen only 4 Shades which qualify for being among those endgame uber Shades. By contrast, BS yesterday had the joy of hosting 4 1he/1hb enfos and 1 2he enfo, 3 nts, and 5 soldiers clanside (not all in the same BS session, only a few had the mult enf/nt/sol inside,) over the course of the day while for Uber Shades there was myself, and Perkitup was there for a bit. So ya, you're right. Two uber Shades can do well if they get lucky. Now we just have to remember to sync up our playtimes in AO and we can have a recent real world event you can use as an example to prove your point. -_-

It's damn unfair that evades professions have evades!!1 Don't forget that allowing perks to land more often on evades professions will affect shades too.

Actually if everything I proposed got introduced Shade vs Shade would be interesting. Whoever is the most alert and experienced would win. That's how winning PvP should be decided.

It's the same for any other perk profession. Don't forget that you can get a team too.

Shades in teams which are in conflicts against a force using CC such as AoE roots, AoE fears, gain the lowest priority for healing due to their lack of ability to contribute to success in such scenarios. Oddly enough, Shades are a priority target for the opposing side.

How can I be expected to contribute if I am:
-Immobile and can only be mobile when attacked so roots break (opps splat)
-Have SD perked and lack 300 aad, and go splat even faster, or lack the offensive perks to be deadly (at which time what was the point in being mobile?)

Shades also have stun procs, init debuff procs, nano drains, aao drains, aad drains, ...

The crat nuke, Workplace Depression, has a init debuff almost for the same amount as Shade init proc. It can, as I understand it, be used along with the actual init debuffs they possess. Such a nuke can be spammed in PvM. Our procs have at best a 15% chance upon a successful hit to proc. Stun procs do not work on AI gens, Dynas, or any 'Boss' Mob.

SP drains are quite useful, they are far from necessary. The point being made is that these profs ODing Shades have toolsets viewed as necessary. Not tools which are 'these are ok in addition to crat/flects'.

Solution to SP is to give shades fear/root/snare resist?

If SP drains are to remain a short duration then the ability to bring them up and use them must be enhanced to where they can, sigh, actually consistently be brought up and used when needed (which is really almost always)....

Why not but then they should increase the recharge as well.

Trader drains last 3-4 minutes. They're integral for a trader to properly use his toolset in PvP. SP drains are integral for a Shade to properly use his toolset in PvP....

[SoldiTwo]

I would like to have Blur debuff the targets runspeed by 1000 and have Blur last ~5 secs longer.

[NoGoal]

you can't have both init debuff proc and stun proc. those are the same nanoline.

Did I say otherwise?

You mean 2 100% endgame over 6bil invested MR using Atrox Shades which know how to PvP and get lucky by not getting aoe rooted? Ya, fine you're right there. Cept I was talking about enfos in general. Any nab who can ip 1hb and put a half-effort into getting AR. Nice that you compare what two Endgame Trox Shades can do to some of the easiest prof vs prof combos. You know our perks have 100% checks right? You do realize I was even only talking about what a Shade could do, as in, no breed influence whatsoever?

Any shade can perk me without spending billions. A gimp enfo won't kill you ever.

Now we just have to remember to sync up our playtimes in AO and we can have a recent real world event you can use as an example to prove your point. -_-

Performance has nothing to do with attendance.

Shades in teams which are in conflicts against a force using CC such as AoE roots, AoE fears, gain the lowest priority for healing due to their lack of ability to contribute to success in such scenarios. Oddly enough, Shades are a priority target for the opposing side.

Get a better doc? Shades aren't a priority target. This has nothing to do with shade balance.

How can I be expected to contribute if I am:
-Immobile and can only be mobile when attacked so roots break (opps splat)
-Have SD perked and lack 300 aad, and go splat even faster, or lack the offensive perks to be deadly (at which time what was the point in being mobile?)

Still has nothing to do with SP. Unless your view of perk balance is to make an unique perk line that do everything?

The crat nuke, Workplace Depression, has a init debuff almost for the same amount as Shade init proc. It can, as I understand it, be used along with the actual init debuffs they possess. Such a nuke can be spammed in PvM. Our procs have at best a 15% chance upon a successful hit to proc. Stun procs do not work on AI gens, Dynas, or any 'Boss' Mob.

SP drains are quite useful, they are far from necessary. The point being made is that these profs ODing Shades have toolsets viewed as necessary. Not tools which are 'these are ok in addition to crat/flects'.

Nothing is necessary, having more tools just make it easier. Also don't do the one that cares about damage when you don't have the perks for it.

If SP drains are to remain a short duration then the ability to bring them up and use them must be enhanced to where they can, sigh, actually consistently be brought up and used when needed (which is really almost always)....

Don't you think that if FC wanted you to always run around with the positive part of SP they would have added them as a static bonus?

Trader drains last 3-4 minutes. They're integral for a trader to properly use his toolset in PvP. SP drains are integral for a Shade to properly use his toolset in PvP....

Once again you are trying to compare 2 isolated elements of 2 totally different tool sets.

[-XeI20-]

Any shade can perk me without spending billions. A gimp enfo won't kill you ever.

50% checks. 50% Checks! Lets say a gimp enf can achieve 2600 AR. He has a perk AR of 5200 now. Yay, 1hb enfo can perk any Shade in existence. Now smack two of those gimp Enfos together and poof Shade is gone. You said "I won't even say which profs 2 shades can alpha before their target can even react." as if you could name a long list of what 2 Shades could alpha. Well, that list is short unless you meet it accordingly to how I detailed it in my response. Oddly enough, the list of what profs 2 1hb enfos can alpha is very very long regardless of how they're geared.

Performance has nothing to do with attendance.

How can a prof perform unless it attends? How good can a profs performance be if it isn't attending?

Get a better doc? Shades aren't a priority target. This has nothing to do with shade balance.

I guess since Shades are so unimportant as to not be a priority target, and that a Shades CC weaknesses are unimportant to overall balance then there should be no reason whatsoever that SP shouldn't both be extended to 4minutes and have fear/CC resistance while also allowing Shades to have MR.

Kind of weird hearing someone say the ability of a prof to be able to use their toolset effectively, has no bearing on 'balance' for the prof. It's most especially odd seeing as this is coming from a prof with 50% check perks.

Still has nothing to do with SP. Unless your view of perk balance is to make an unique perk line that do everything?

How can I use SP if I'm rooted? The point I was making that to have the protection to be clear of CC issues and able to fully use SP, I would then lack so much offensive or defense that having the CC protection would be pointless.

Do everything? Soz, didn't realize I hide secret messages in my posts asking SP to heal, perform large damage, remove roots and snares, stun/root/snare my opponent, give an absorb, give reflects, give a damage shield, pierce reflects oh..we could go on and on listing 'everything'. You did have a point somewhere in that post right?

Nothing is necessary, having more tools just make it easier. Also don't do the one that cares about damage when you don't have the perks for it.

You heard it here first folks, healing profs are not necessary to do content. Neither are inits debuffs. Nor do you need a prof which can tank......wtf was your second sentence trying to convey btw?

Don't you think that if FC wanted you to always run around with the positive part of SP they would have added them as a static bonus?

This statement is just lolworthy. You're arguing that the dev teams which brought us AS Online and tripololol should have their past actions respected concerning Shades, but not concerning AS, 1hb perks, 2hb perks, etc etc etc...I suppose one of my previous posts I made is a more accurate assessment then I originally thought:

Effing pissed at the "Not Shade" tag that seems to have been placed on PvP rebalancing.

Once again you are trying to compare 2 isolated elements of 2 totally different tool sets.

Trader drains drain an opponents stats and allow the trader to fully utilize their toolset in combat. SP drains drain an opponents stats and allow the shade to fully utilize their toolset in combat....they seem rather similar in nature to be totally different....

[NoGoal]

50% checks. 50% Checks! Lets say a gimp enf can achieve 2600 AR. He has a perk AR of 5200 now.

No he doesn't. I guess you need a little more game knowledge. I stopped reading there.

Anyway I'll end this as it isn't leading anywhere. Like I already said, if shades need something it shouldn't come from perks. They already have many and powerful perks.

[SoldiTwo]

No he doesn't. I guess you need a little more game knowledge. I stopped reading there.

Anyway I'll end this as it isn't leading anywhere. Like I already said, if shades need something it shouldn't come from perks. They already have many and powerful perks.

It should come from Blur! Let's make Blur a mini Mongo Rage(600Off) that also debuffs the targets runspeed!