[Crat] Feedback

[cratters]

You mean you might have to adjust your setup to use it more effectively? Maybe the crat pvp setups need to actually vary depending on the abilities they want to have?

Combined scouts has a nice +30 psychoclogy at ql300, it seems most of your perk lines are gaining psychology, you have psychology buffs, and I'm too lazy to look it up but I believe crats can reduce NR.

You cannot expect to use something well if you don't want to sacrifice for it, be glad you have the option of actually enhancing your psychology skill quite a bit.

Yeah, now you're being just plain ignorant. Unlike your enforcer main, Bureaucrats have the misfortune of being a nano dependant profession.

This means we have to focus on weapon skills and nano skills. Our symbiants don't buff both. nor does our equipment. We have to pick and choose, unlike a lot of other professions.

Now you're suggesting we mix up Psychology on top of weaponskills and nanoskills? For what? Landing tow weak perks?

I really wonder what the deal is with people like you. Your statements so far clearly show that you have little to no knowledge about the bureaucrat profession, yet you're in here pretending that you do. You're even scalding me for being lazy, based on your utterly foolish ideas.
Either you think you actually do have some knowledge on the subject, in which case you're just plain ignorant, in the dumbest of ways. Or you're just trolling. The first is likely, and unwanted, the second is possible, and equally unwanted. So, based on that, how about you gtfo and make me a sandwich.

[cratters]

Enforcers I understand, sorry for forgetting that; I've been enfo vs sterva a couple times xD . I guess crats need some kind of other damage mitigation system against massive-AR tank professions; do you guys have troubles with keepers too?
I think the problem with the others is we don't know how AS will change. I agree that crat survival needs a bit of a boost with the current Aimedshot Online.

I think my only real worries with crat balance is their ability to root/fear and leave whenever it looks bad, and perhaps the duration of the tapes in BS.

I hope Means will give us an idea of how they hope to dike out AS without breaking everything.

Basic issue is that we don't have reliable damage and completely lack reliable defenses.

Keepers, since you asked, aren't so much an issue (excluding AR or wacky OSB) as they can't perk us. Killing a decent one takes ages, or is impossible, so I usually just avoid them if I run into one solo. Fun fact though, if they swap to a fast AS weapon, they can beat us easy, though fortunately most of them don't carry these.

[Sterva]

We have access to very good personal damage with an endgame pistol setup, and if they add new pets that scale offensive and defensively, then I think crat offense will be quite nice, really.

Most of our troubles are related to crowd control that doesn't work well (which is the biggest part of our toolset, arguably), and poor overall defenses.

[Hacre]

do you guys have troubles with keepers too?

Not if they can be rooted. If they're smart or have SD perked then they fall into the same line as Enforcers, which is gtfo once evade perks are down.

[srompu]

So ultimately, crats would like more reliable crowd control, a defense which isn't purely AAD-based, and better pets.
Crat-killers will want a way to stop crats from rooting/fearing and leaving all the time, and will want a way to kill them.
I guess the defensive boost would be more relevant now that AS is gone, but it seems we agree that's a black hole xD.

What about a mutal short-duration ultra-low-nr-check root, that forces the person to fight when the crat wants to fight, or an aoe version that's 5-10s? The crat would be stuck too, so it couldn't be a lolbai item, but the opponent would be reliably jammed. Presumably the crat would try to time it so they had an edge at that particular moment.

What d'you guys think could be done?

[Sterva]

So ultimately, crats would like more reliable crowd control, a defense which isn't purely AAD-based, and better pets.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

What about a mutal short-duration ultra-low-nr-check root, that forces the person to fight when the crat wants to fight, or an aoe version that's 5-10s? The crat would be stuck too, so it couldn't be a lolbai item, but the opponent would be reliably jammed. Presumably the crat would try to time it so they had an edge at that particular moment.

What d'you guys think could be done?

IMHO CC should be reworked so that it lands reliably but lasts for a short duration and becomes less effective if it's spammed.

You have to keep in mind though, crats are extremely vulnerable if they are rooted/snared. We have nothing but HD to heal up, which means we have to kite as much as possible if we're taking damage.

[Moonbolt]

Yeah, now you're being just plain ignorant. Unlike your enforcer main, Bureaucrats have the misfortune of being a nano dependant profession.

This means we have to focus on weapon skills and nano skills. Our symbiants don't buff both. nor does our equipment. We have to pick and choose, unlike a lot of other professions.

since when is it said that crats are a weponskill profession... they are a support/nanoskil profession and thus shouldnt rely on weponskills.

[cratters]

since when is it said that crats are a weponskill profession... they are a support/nanoskil profession and thus shouldnt rely on weponskills.

Ah, another one. What exactly gave you this idea? The fact we have support for pistols (but not specials) through perks, symbs, armour and research? The fact we have bureaucrat specific pistols?

{Removed by Anarrina} Our only reliable source of damage in PvP is weapons. Weapons which require a lot of fine-tuning through custom imps and CCS to be even half-functional.

I'm not claiming that soldiers shouldn't be able to cast a single nano because they're not a caster profession?

We have nanoskills and weaponskills as major attack skills. We're one of the few professions faced with this problem. The vast majority has weaponskills only, and NTs are the only ones who require fully on nanoskills.
Adding Psychology as yet another attack skill means we become dependant on 3 very distinct types of attack skills. This is not an option, since even now, with two of them, both are lacking.

If FC* sees us as not a weapon using profession, more focused on nanoskills and Pschology, than so be it. This means we should get something akin to the NT cyberdeck, however. Running around with useless weapons is simply not a proper way of managing things.

*Note how i say -FC- here. I know you, like so many others, after careful studying of a single paragraph in the profession selection screen, a paragraph that was written over 8 years ago, have come to the conclusion that you are indeed the most knowledgeable person when it comes to bureaucrat, and, as such, are absolutely certain that we don't need to use pistols. However, I tend to disagree with that, and consider you to be just another forum newbie who really has no business posting int his thread. A thread, which, after all, is a thread for bureaucrats, about bureaucrats. Not for people like you spewing nonsense about fictional toolsets. You don't get to make decisiion on what bureaucrats are or aren't. neither do I, for that matter. However, I do have reality on my side, since it's quite obvious that in both PvM and PvP, we are without a doubt a profession that depends heavily on weaponskills.

So, there's me, speaking out of years of experience on playing a crat and being the most awesome crat on RK2 anyway. I mention facts. that can and have been backed up by careful comparisons and affirmed by ingame experiments and experiences.
Then there's you, speaking out of the experience of having rolled another toon, but, before you did so, you read through the character creation screen of the bureaucrat profession. You make a single, almost random statement, that you don't back up with anything at all, and you offer no alternatives to what we propose, you merely say we shouldn't be getting anything. I think it's safe to say we don't need your input. So you can join that other guy in the kitchen and bake me a pie. Or knit a sweater. Both of those would contribute far more than you sharing your insights on the profession.

{Removed moderation comments}

[nanoforcer]

I'de like to comment on:

Confound With Rules
Succumb

Those are two perks that looks pretty good on paper but that i never ever use, for several reasons:

Attack skill and lockout:
Having psycology as attackskill is just wrong, as a crat there is a point in raising psycology when you need to grab a charm, but when you get carlo you'll rarely get charms, also, most ppl i know resett skills to rearrange their ip spendage when they have all of their alphas etc etc.

These perks are debuffs and by looking at agent debuff perks that are similar to these i'de say that AR skill and 85-90% def check (ranged or evade close) would seem apropiate, and cut the recharge to 2-3 mins max.

[Hacre]

I'de like to comment on:

Confound With Rules
Succumb

Those are two perks that looks pretty good on paper but that i never ever use, for several reasons:

Attack skill and lockout:
Having psycology as attackskill is just wrong, as a crat there is a point in raising psycology when you need to grab a charm, but when you get carlo you'll rarely get charms, also, most ppl i know resett skills to rearrange their ip spendage when they have all of their alphas etc etc.

These perks are debuffs and by looking at agent debuff perks that are similar to these i'de say that AR skill and 85-90% def check (ranged or evade close) would seem apropiate, and cut the recharge to 2-3 mins max.

There's really no need to raise Psychology to land charms at all. It's a tiny proportion of the overall attack vs defense equation.

[SSK]

So, there's me, being the most awesome crat on RK2. I mention facts.

You contradict yourself, your fact is wrong.

Jokes aside, our weapon should rely on psychology (something like remod) or attack skill on those 2 perks should be weapon AR.

[Calamite]

I would say crats are getting screwed with these changes for several reasons, few that I already mentioned. Specifically on confound with rules and succumb perks:

Pistol crats have low psychology, they don't have ip for it and don't have it in their equipment.

Succumb/confound with rules work perfectly with a nano skill/remodulator setup currently. But with the upcoming changes they won't for several reasons: defensive check changed to nano resist whereas remodulator debuffs evades only. Those perks are the most useful against enforcers, since we can't control them in any other way and they land easily with remod. Also, they are very effective on NTs, traders (followed by freak strength stuns), doctors, engineers (pets chain critting is nice). With check changed to nano resist they will be close to impossible to land on docs, NTs and enfs, so it's a loss.

[Xenotric]

I always though crats should really have a nice personalized gilded pen with hidden pistol inside it, that can be leveled from 1 -> 200 and then upgraded into a special ql 300 version

It requires pistol and psycology (+ maybe a special or two) has some special effects and what not, wieldable with an upgraded Breifcase of holding gun...

but yeah never seemed to happen.

[Anayama]

since when is it said that crats are a weponskill profession... they are a support/nanoskil profession and thus shouldnt rely on weponskills.

Yeah, at least one profession should put up with being the sitting duck in the game.

In a game where the point is to kill the other dude before he kills you, weapons are going to be primary. If Funcom wants to create pets that compensate for lack of weapons, great, that certainly doesn't seem to be in their plans.

[Moonbolt]

im not sure if i saw right but i think someone said that pets AR was gonna scale.
the perks were gonna do more dmg but require psychology?
as it is currently.. a good crat is on par in DPS with a good shade. wich isnt realy a good balance.

[cratters]

im not sure if i saw right but i think someone said that pets AR was gonna scale.

Which, even if it would happen, still changes nothing about poor scaling, poor pet AI, vulnerability to debuffs, ease of kiting pets into walls, ease of killing pets and a handful of other pet issues. The top engi dog has far, far more AR than Carlo. See how well that performs in PvP.

the perks were gonna do more dmg but require psychology?

They don't do damage. They didn't do damage. They won't do damage. Did you even bother reading the document?

as it is currently.. a good crat is on par in DPS with a good shade. wich isnt realy a good balance.

In PvM. PvM is not PvP. PvM is not PvP. Pvm is not PvP.

{edited by Anarrina: try a counter-argument instead of a personal attack}

[Gracee]

I hope there is more info coming because it doesn't look good at this moment.

We lost a lot of defense while working the Xan pistols into our setups which sorta led us into having to up our AR to kill as quickly as possible. The changes to the Pistol Mastery perkline were some help with that but they won't be landing nearly as much now.

We rely heavily on AAO, our dark blue weapon skills are less than acceptable to absorb the nerf to AAO perks.

We are still lacking defensively and now offensively too. Wonderful.
We still don't have an adequate replacement for losing stun procs (which were given to us because we needed a defensive boost and still do!!!).
We still know nothing about improvements to our pets, the weakest of the pet profs.
We still have only our dark blue evades and AAD as our only line of defense.

Looking at it from the post-rebalancing perspective (as it is now): We have gained a proc that boosts nano damage and an AoE fear - nothing else added has been useful.


Like I said, I hope there is more info coming because right now feels like a really bad time to be a Crat and I am genuinely concerned. It's just been getting worse and worse.

As far as the dev's vision for Crats... I sincerely have no idea what I am supposed to be good at. It honestly looks like I am just supposed to run around debuffing people and simply be a totem for everyone else. Gah, the more I think about this the worse it really gets. We have nothing but dark blue disappointment in our future unless a big fat bone or two is thrown our way soon.

[Tradersoft]

There's a pattern here somehow

[Hacre]

I hope there is more info coming because it doesn't look good at this moment.

We lost a lot of defense while working the Xan pistols into our setups which sorta led us into having to up our AR to kill as quickly as possible. The changes to the Pistol Mastery perkline were some help with that but they won't be landing nearly as much now.

Why not? The PM perks are staying as they are aren't they?

[Gridpain]

my 2 cents :

thumbs up for :

(Fix that it updates slowly when zoning) for all perk aura ! at last

1 sec activation Dodge the blame

thumbs flat for :

Psychology as perk attack skills ... well, if psychology has only this use ... no one will ever use these perks .. if there's a crat weapon with pistol 100% and psychology XX% as AR (like engi pistol) ... maybe.

thumbs down for :

Perks recharge time... 15 sec duration for 10 min lock out ? are you kidding ?

crats have low attack skills / evades and rely on AAO and AAD ... any nerf on those affect crats badly.