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Thread: Friday with Means - October 2nd, 2009 - A week of daring escapes

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinebox View Post
    Hopefully this is just work in progress and far from the end result.

    The bumpmaps look horrible, especially with the current state of LOD.

    The lighting is wrong, way to saturated.
    The sun might look yellow/orange, but it dosn't change the material of things, so please tone down the color saturation on the lightsource.

    Also, the shadows are way to pronounced, rarely if ever do you get hard-line shadows from sunlight, so some scattering of the shadows would be good!

    Truthfully, as it stands right now, I would say Ogre was way superior.
    And just throwing automaticly generated bumpmaps onto something really dosnt make it look better unless its done right, and done so with intent from the very beginning.
    Clearly the textures in AO is made without any such intent.

    They probably cheated in bumpmaps without actually having them, adding depth with artistic eyes instead. Cheating is considered a good thing as it reduces resourcedrain, thats good.
    Infact thats exactly what bumpmaps are, cheats to add geometry. But seeing as AO's textures are allready cheated to add depth with color information.... To create a good bumpmap you need to create a high-poly version of the current geometry. This would require a COMPLETE workover of EVERY single rock and surface in AO.
    I would recommend strongly against adding bumpmaps on the current ground textures in AO seeing as all it would accomplish would be making it look like plastic.

    I think ive said this before, but ill repeat myself. DirectX is just not as good as OpenGL, it's merely easier, and you will pay dearly for being lazy with the quality of the end-result.

    If nothing else, _PLEASE_ scale down the value of the bumpmaps by at least 0.5 and remove specularity from them.

    I do hope I will be proven wrong.
    Hmm, I knew as soon as I read Means post and before I looked at the screen shots that showing them would be inviting comments like yours.

    From what I'm reading it appears you may have read some wiki entry on bump mapping and not fully understood what it is.

    You don't need to add any geometry to the models to create decent bump maps, just decent composites. Don't think your sophomoric attempt to impress us with pseudo-knowledge is going to endear you to the devs.

    Even what they are doing here is close to rebuilding most of the game. DirectX or opengl really depends on what you are trying to do. FC already has a graphics engine that runs with directx, they are already rebuilding this game to suit the engine, do you really feel that the difference between Directx and opengl is enough for them to stop, take 2-3 years to re-write the engine using opengl, and then re-code AO with the new engine?

    Do what means suggested. Look at the shadows, and the bump mapping. I'm willing to bet that when it's all said and done the game will attract a bunch of new players.

    AO has a lot of gaming capital and I'm sure DC execs feel a sense of risk, but from my seat this is a sure bet. I've read and heard from a lot of folks that AO is one of the only games that people go back to time and again.
    Lords of Silence : AO Division Leader

    www.clanlos.net

  2. #82
    81st!
    Ofab - Doctor [e]
    Clipfury - Soldier
    R22866281602 - Bureaucrat
    Icey2 - Soldier [deleted]
    First to receive an infraction worth 1337 points.

    Bump this thread for Black Atroxes!

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyZeus View Post
    Hmm, I knew as soon as I read Means post and before I looked at the screen shots that showing them would be inviting comments like yours.

    From what I'm reading it appears you may have read some wiki entry on bump mapping and not fully understood what it is.

    You don't need to add any geometry to the models to create decent bump maps, just decent composites. Don't think your sophomoric attempt to impress us with pseudo-knowledge is going to endear you to the devs.

    Do what means suggested. Look at the shadows, and the bump mapping. I'm willing to bet that when it's all said and done the game will attract a bunch of new players.
    I know EXACTLY what bumpmaps are, I havent actually read any wiki about it. I have read books that have had it described plenty of times, infact.. Looking at my selection of books right now id say 7 of the 29 has it described, from diffrent time periodes.

    I have been an artist since I could hold a crayon.. I know very much what im doing.. Not that I expect it to be heard by anyone except flamers...

    Indeed, you can add decent bumpmaps without doing a bake with a low/high poly.
    75% of the time it ends up looking weird tho so you have to go in and manually adjust it anyway.
    Note however that Z-brush can take information from a texture and add depth to it so you can adjust the geometry of a bake. That method works well.. Still requires manual labor, but the end result is good. The best result is always from high->low bakes.

    I was just pointing out what appears to be bad so its at the very least noted and MAYBE just maybe it would have some work done to it. If everyone just yells YAY! and thats it... Nothing else would be done to it and you would have a inferior end product.. Having some scrutinizing eyes on the work in progress is ALWAYS a good thing... Im just trying to do my part. You can commence flaming again now..

    Shadows are too crisp, bumpmaps have serious issues on LOD... So yea thats what I did..
    Seeing more detail in textures on longer ranges is good tho, I like that. But its pointless if the bumpmaps end up looking wrong on distance.
    Clearly its too late to change over to OpenGL now.. However it would have been a sweet thing to do it when they started on AoC..
    Alltho if they can upgrade from DX10 to DX11 it might be a good thing, DX11 will be sweet.
    Last edited by Shinebox; Oct 3rd, 2009 at 05:27:34.

  4. #84
    The newer stuff looks better. I know enough to say I don't know enough to figure why. It looks like other stuff will have to be brought up to speed, shapes - for instance, geometry - but I'm guessing it will be. Funcom is showing us the rushes, we can't complain that it doesn't have post-production flourishes.

  5. #85
    I like what I see in the new screenies. I am not an artist but I can appreciate what it takes to move all the code base, database and textures into a completely new form.

    In a previous FoM one of the Dev's was quoted as getting excited about getting a normal texture/bump map or whatever it is to run in the new engine. I guess they could have posted that screenie and we would have gone ...ummm...it's a rock.(a good idea for a placard maybe...hehe)

    For what it's worth seeing these 2 screenies shows that the Dev's , Means and others are excited enough to show them now unfinished, That kind of passion/excitement is what has driven the continued development of a game that people have been trying to prophesy is doomed.

    Not said this before as I am not easily impressed - All hail Macrosun! and ofc All hail AO Devs!
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinebox View Post
    I know EXACTLY what bumpmaps are, I havent actually read any wiki about it. I have read books that have had it described plenty of times, infact.. Looking at my selection of books right now id say 7 of the 29 has it described, from diffrent time periodes.

    I have been an artist since I could hold a crayon.. I know very much what im doing.. Not that I expect it to be heard by anyone except flamers...

    Indeed, you can add decent bumpmaps without doing a bake with a low/high poly.
    75% of the time it ends up looking weird tho so you have to go in and manually adjust it anyway.
    Note however that Z-brush can take information from a texture and add depth to it so you can adjust the geometry of a bake. That method works well.. Still requires manual labor, but the end result is good. The best result is always from high->low bakes.

    I was just pointing out what appears to be bad so its at the very least noted and MAYBE just maybe it would have some work done to it. If everyone just yells YAY! and thats it... Nothing else would be done to it and you would have a inferior end product.. Having some scrutinizing eyes on the work in progress is ALWAYS a good thing... Im just trying to do my part. You can commence flaming again now..

    Shadows are too crisp, bumpmaps have serious issues on LOD... So yea thats what I did..
    Seeing more detail in textures on longer ranges is good tho, I like that. But its pointless if the bumpmaps end up looking wrong on distance.
    Clearly its too late to change over to OpenGL now.. However it would have been a sweet thing to do it when they started on AoC..
    Alltho if they can upgrade from DX10 to DX11 it might be a good thing, DX11 will be sweet.
    the above post can be classified as a thread killer, please quit being so arrogant. The AO team - from top to bottom - know what they are doing and are not idiots. nuff said.
    Have a listen to my latest musical abomination.

    Fixers run while engi's Build
    Soldiers gun near crats coffee, spilled

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    geez.. It took 4 pages before someone who knows better than the devs to make final-review comments over a couple of prelimenary screen shots.


    Least thats finally out of the way.
    rofl!
    "I detest sleep. I've got better things to do." -JTHM-

    So bitter and filled with ash. I would enjoy your tears, if they didn't turn to dust at my touch.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    Balancing

    This week we have had Metaing in the office for lengthy balance discussions with the entire team. After purchasing new helmets these discussions will continue all next week. Next Friday we will be posting a document containing all the proposed changes to existing perks and descriptions of new ones. This will give us all a chance to examine these changes in detail before implementation in the coming weeks.
    I'm bringing popcorn \o/

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinebox View Post
    but ill repeat myself. DirectX is just not as good as OpenGL, it's merely easier, and you will pay dearly for being lazy with the quality of the end-result.
    Having had huge arguments on this before, I'll state this very clearly:

    Anyone who makes a claim there is a direct difference in visual quality between directX and openGL doesn't know what he/she is talking about.
    You don't understand what these API's do. You don't understand why and how these API's are used.
    Using the same assets, same setup and same shaders will result in the same output in DX and OGL.

    And please, before you start a counter offensive:
    - Posting screenshots for DX games vs OGL games is not a valid argument.
    - Your personal experiences with DX games vs OGL games are not valid arguments.
    - If you're unfamiliar with graphics programming, what personal experience do you even base these claims on?

    I'm all for meaningful conversions on this subject and I really enjoy them. But please don't spread false information if it's not even your field of expertise.
    Last edited by Vhaxx; Oct 3rd, 2009 at 11:36:35.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  9. #89
    Besides the epeen flames i hope the positve feedback helps the AO team hold true and not give up! You hear that Macrosun?!? We need AO to survive and thrive again, without it life is meaningless.
    Aspirant of the Means Cult(tm)
    ---------------------------------------
    Bug Busters (Rk2)
    now Froob RK1

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Shareida View Post
    Hi. Dont quit.

    Otherwise Vhab will take over and make WoW out of it.
    Actually, if thinks work out I might end up calling Macrosun boss
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    Actually, if thinks work out I might end up calling Macrosun boss
    It seems we live in interesting times...
    Aspirant of the Means Cult(tm)
    ---------------------------------------
    Bug Busters (Rk2)
    now Froob RK1

  12. #92
    removed
    Last edited by Means; Oct 4th, 2009 at 07:03:56. Reason: trolling. Don't push your luck.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxisfix View Post
    But my birthday is on the 23rd
    so is mine

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinebox View Post
    I know EXACTLY what bumpmaps are, I havent actually read any wiki about it. I have read books that have had it described plenty of times, infact.. Looking at my selection of books right now id say 7 of the 29 has it described, from diffrent time periodes.

    I have been an artist since I could hold a crayon.. I know very much what im doing.. Not that I expect it to be heard by anyone except flamers...

    Indeed, you can add decent bumpmaps without doing a bake with a low/high poly.
    75% of the time it ends up looking weird tho so you have to go in and manually adjust it anyway.
    Note however that Z-brush can take information from a texture and add depth to it so you can adjust the geometry of a bake. That method works well.. Still requires manual labor, but the end result is good. The best result is always from high->low bakes.

    I was just pointing out what appears to be bad so its at the very least noted and MAYBE just maybe it would have some work done to it. If everyone just yells YAY! and thats it... Nothing else would be done to it and you would have a inferior end product.. Having some scrutinizing eyes on the work in progress is ALWAYS a good thing... Im just trying to do my part. You can commence flaming again now..

    Shadows are too crisp, bumpmaps have serious issues on LOD... So yea thats what I did..
    Seeing more detail in textures on longer ranges is good tho, I like that. But its pointless if the bumpmaps end up looking wrong on distance.
    Clearly its too late to change over to OpenGL now.. However it would have been a sweet thing to do it when they started on AoC..
    Alltho if they can upgrade from DX10 to DX11 it might be a good thing, DX11 will be sweet.
    I can see you would like to start a debate in order to give us your resume. I honestly could care less.

    DX is a smart move in my opinion. Why rebuild the wheel when there is an SUV right in front of you.

    In programming, follow the 80/20 rule. Don't spend 80% of your time on 20% of the problems.

    Means, if you are reading this, let Mac know that we feel his pain and understand not only the complexity of what he's doing, but also the two sided pressure to deliver from both the fan base and corporate. It's appreciated and we look forward to what, at least from my perspective, is one of the smartest moves in gaming.
    Lords of Silence : AO Division Leader

    www.clanlos.net

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    After purchasing new helmets...
    I suggest This helmet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    Actually, if thinks work out I might end up calling Macrosun boss

    Or calling him Pimp-Daddy.
    Last edited by Solstiare; Oct 3rd, 2009 at 19:52:43.
    ____ Equipment
    Kopo: There's nothing wrong with the (NT) profession itself, it's just that the other 99.9% of us playing it are deluded & incompetent.
    Unzipped: I'm right, Schmorgi is right... everyone else is wrong and /org lazy.... yep... that pretty much sums up my thoughts.
    Mangle: .... even still the leveling curve seems steep. Why must there be an exponential leveling curve? Who the hell invented that crap with MMOs to begin with?
    deniska: malewerecat h8 for making me agree with Masta
    sobeguy:Anyhow, Marius was evil regardless. Gaute was evil too. They are like, the Bat Man and Robin of evil. They probably run around in tights and masks, making vaguely homoerotic comments, and generally meddling anywhere people are trying to have fun!
    Righteous:Sil is in the kitchen making some sandwiches, he says you're lying and doesn't know who you are.
    Sephiroth:you managed to bother two people with one sentence. Nice
    I Remember The Missing: Nepenthia, Naraya, Satenia.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinebox View Post
    The lighting is wrong, way to saturated.
    The sun might look yellow/orange, but it dosn't change the material of things, so please tone down the color saturation on the lightsource.

    Also, the shadows are way to pronounced, rarely if ever do you get hard-line shadows from sunlight, so some scattering of the shadows would be good!
    It's a game... and the lighting in AO has always had a pleasingly impressionistic look which I hope the new engine manages to retain some of (and the 2nd shot looks like it was take near sunset or sunrise anyway, when the colouration from the sunlight would be stronger).
    "Do not try and catch the hamster... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no hamster, only a deadbeat rollerat..."

    [Social] Means: I don't think we removed any bosses because of bad pathing...there wouldnt be any left if we did :P

    AO Character Skill Emulator and Character Parser and AO Implant Layout Helper

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticism View Post
    From my point of view it is customers right to know some approximate date for engine/new expansions/other crap launch - just because WE are your WAGES.
    No offense intended to the poster, but my first thought when I read this part was a drunk telling a cop, "you can't give me a ticket because my taxes pay your wages".

    Yes, we would all like to know the exact date, but as history has proven... multiple times, if they give us a date, some of the AO population will raise all kinds of hell if the date is not met exactly. The rest just want it done correctly as quickly as possible.

    I believe the last thing Means stated on the engine release was along the lines of "when it is ready, but hopefully Fall 2009". The last 2 patches have shown they are clearly working towards that goal. Fall 2009 ends in December.
    Maybe™ is the new Soon™.
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    At heart I am a vindictive, heartless, ruthless bastard and behaving in any other way is an effort for me.™
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    Our goal is to have a closed Beta running this year.™

  18. #98
    removed
    Last edited by Means; Oct 4th, 2009 at 07:02:58. Reason: trolling

  19. #99
    Skepticism, you have apparently no idea what is going on with the game. So, moving on.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

    "I know who coded pet pathing... and when I see him I say "/follow" and I start waling in to walls :P"

    The "Trolls" option is incorrect. The term trolls is not used to describe the gathering of information on the Internet.

    <@Kintaii> L2P

  20. #100
    removed
    Last edited by Means; Oct 4th, 2009 at 07:03:15. Reason: trolling

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