Apology to Artyomis

[Roswell]

If you had read the first post, you would see that they had changed their procedures as a result of this incident. So I believe that a GM will pursue petitions regarding possible exploiters as per the new process.

Respectfully friend, I read the first post with clarity. I respect your belief that this incident will not change how GMs react to petitions about exploits. I do not share your opinion.

Funcom is saying: Hey, we failed, this is what we did wrong, and this is what we're going to do to fix it both now and going forward.

Funcom admitting failure to the players is not necessary. They only need to recognize their mistake to the player in question. That matter was between Arty and Funcom, and was none of our business. It was not reported to Funcom in public, thus should not have been handled in public. This was not a public matter.

Funcom doesn't disclose everything it's doing to fix problems in the game. More so with respect to exploitation. That subject, up until now, has been off limits. That is a smart policy and they should stick with it.

How on earth is fixing a broken process a bad thing or setting a bad precedent?

It's is not a bad thing unless you discuss in public the actions you're going to take to fix it. Funcom needs only to relay to the player base an assurance that a problem will be fixed. How they fix it is not our concern.

Two bad precedents were set in motion here and I believe I covered them at length in my first post. Going over them again would be redundant.



A statement such as this, "Due to recent events we are going to be changing the way we investigate exploitation. With that said we would like to apologize for any problems this may have caused. Please be assured we are doing our best to correct these problems fairly.", would have taken the focus off of the player in question and kept it on the real problem at hand.

Any compensation payed to the player in question is none of our concern and does nothing to further Funcom's efforts to fix the real problem. Whether it be compensation to the players reputation, or otherwise. In my opinion it actually hurts their effort to curve cheating in the game. It sends a very clear message about, not only the GMs lack of tools to fight this problem, but how the exploitation investigations are going to work.

[vallikat]

Funcom admitting failure to the players is not necessary.

No, its not necessary. The fact that they did is what makes Means and by extension Funcom completely badass. IMO, of course.

[thecheeseman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=077UtUWGQOA

[vadagget]

The procedures they've put in place should embolden GM's to look for su****ious setups and report them to the Devs. No longer is the weight of proof on the GM's themselves and that should make for a more aggressive approach towards finding out the chars with exploited gear more consistent that ever.

[Suicidal]

Thing is..
Things like that shouldn't be discussed on forum. When a player discusses exploit or _possible_ exploit he/she gets warned or worse.
Artyomis is not the first person in situation like this. There are other people who have been treated wrong my GM/CS/whatnot. Will we now see weekly "who exploited and who didn't" thread with FwM? Or is Artyomis in some way special (I don't know this person in game or in real life, no idea)? Maybe some other people want public apology too?
This thing could have been done in private, but instead Means decided to treat this player special.. and didn't stop there..
While apology is nice, it could have been done in much better way.

[Maxisolja]

The procedures they've put in place should embolden GM's to look for su****ious setups and report them to the Devs. No longer is the weight of proof on the GM's themselves and that should make for a more aggressive approach towards finding out the chars with exploited gear more consistent that ever.

The weight of proof should be on GM's, that is part of there job if they are in the exploit division. There are only what 11 devs?, they don't have time to personally deal with handling exploit abuse, they handle with fixing them.

If a accident happens, apologize in private and fix the problem just like it has always been done.

Getting a dev to personally inspect a exploit claim slows down an already very slow process of handling exploiters, it took months to ban a certain VERY public exploiter on rk2 and other publicly exploiting people still got away with it.

Thing is..
Things like that shouldn't be discussed on forum. When a player discusses exploit or _possible_ exploit he/she gets warned or worse.
Artyomis is not the first person in situation like this. There are other people who have been treated wrong my GM/CS/whatnot. Will we now see weekly "who exploited and who didn't" thread with FwM? Or is Artyomis in some way special (I don't know this person in game or in real life, no idea)? Maybe some other people want public apology too?
This thing could have been done in private, but instead Means decided to treat this player special.. and didn't stop there..
While apology is nice, it could have been done in much better way.

Arty is regarded as a "special" person in this game. He has 910-915 bill in credits/assets and is regarded by many as the richest player in AO, which he probably is. But in the eyes of funcom, he should still be "just a player", that kind of disconnection when regarding these issues prevents favoritism.

[Swordbreaker]

Arty is regarded as a "special" person in this game. He has 910-915 bill in credits/assets

But just last week he had just over 100 billion in creds and assets! So he just made 800 billion more?!

WAY TO GO ARTY!

Even if you don't give me a city, even after you promiiiseeed this tiiimeee.

[Mereditche]

But in the eyes of funcom, he should still be "just a player", that kind of disconnection when regarding these issues prevents favoritism.

Unlike popular believe, we're not all equal. Learn to live with it.

[-Barg-]

Unlike popular believe, we're not all equal. Learn to live with it.

No we are all equal just some have feelings of grandeur. All of us will die sooner or later, all of us will cease to be regardless of colour, religion, wealth etc. Life is short make the most of it.

I agree with some comments that Arty has been treated differently to others with valid complaints about FC customer services, be it in game or otherwise. It shouldn't be splatted all over the website. However since many know Arty they /care but many have been wronged in the past, why is this any different? A private apology should have been given and quicker intervention to right the wrong by FC, it was Arty that posted on the forums about this and made it public in the first place.

[Artyomis]

Guys... I've made it to public because it was an effective way to get some attention from Funcom administration regarding a problem that happened to me. Current post of Means is not a result I've been asking for, but its a good example of game administration that realises their problems and can work them out, even in public, since they got nothing to hide, which is, imo, very good.

Transparent connection between game administration and player base makes it alot more comfortable to stay up to date and informed about multiple things.

I never asked about some special treat regarding myself, as you can see - my "twinks" are still not reequipped because i'll either do it myself, or won't do it aswell, so any post at forum won't benefit me in any case like some peeps mentioned before.

Plus, only thing I've tried to prove that specific GM made a mistake, and, tbh, I think I've proved that the best way possible.
As an addition - theres a "Presumption of innocence". I shouldn't prove that GM was wrong, they should prove they were right, which wasn't done.

Thing that happened around myself - happened with a few other players in different variations. And, honestly, it doesn't matter whos name was mentioned in this post - mine or not, this post is just an information which says that GD knows about administrative problems in his team and will rework mechanics of dealing with such situations, which will only benefit player base at a first place.

And, mentioning that i have billions of credits and been treated some special way because of that is really ridiculous. It's like being "treated" by the barber at a first place simply because of having longest hair.

P.S. Im a CEO of a company irl, plus CIO of another same time. There are multiple things like this one that happen irl, of course, with a different specification. But, when top management can be honest with anyone in public, and able to admit own mistakes - that is good example of being brave and straight, which is highly important for a good manager.

[Mereditche]

No we are all equal just some have feelings of grandeur. All of us will die sooner or later, all of us will cease to be regardless of colour, religion, wealth etc. Life is short make the most of it.

I agree with some comments that Arty has been treated differently to others with valid complaints about FC customer services, be it in game or otherwise. It shouldn't be splatted all over the website. However since many know Arty they /care but many have been wronged in the past, why is this any different? A private apology should have been given and quicker intervention to right the wrong by FC, it was Arty that posted on the forums about this and made it public in the first place.

The promise of death doesn't make us equal in life. By saying we're not equal, I don't want to imply some of us are better however. But depending on choices and effort we make, we'll get in different situations and depending of where we end up, people will treath us different.

Arty for instance, made a name in AO by working hard to aqcuire credits/cities and being dedicated in pvp to the omni faction. That makes him different to most of us who're more passive in-game, not well-known and have not much influence over the player base. So when someone of us get caught for sploiting and we post on forums, other players wont believe this and just troll us.

So Arty posted his conversation with the gm to clear his name and rightly so. Many believed he was in his right. He also made the effort to get those false accusions clarified by FC. I don't think many of those people you talk about made this effort. So I think it's only normal that FC reacted in this case.

[-Barg-]

Arty for instance, made a name in AO by working hard to aqcuire credits/cities and being dedicated in pvp to the omni faction.

FFS, this is a game, at most it can be called a hobby by some but to be called work is sad. Go out of your house, smell a rose, eat a cake, look around. There is a real world. What people can achieve within a game is irrelevant as once FC closes the plug on the servers it amounts to nothing. Same as death.

What you can achieve in life isn't centered about wealth or fame. Sure being a billionaire gets you some hot chicks but it's a shallow affair. Friendships, relationships, family, enjoyment and happiness is what matters in life. Being content with you life. You don't need to own half the globe, be president or even well know to have these. Who do you respect most? A doctor who works all night and saves a life or a business man who got lucky on the stockmarket?

Why do I play AO? Because I enjoy the time in game with the friends I have made in game. We do things together, talk in org channel / tells. Have a laugh about things, sometimes at FC expense. Owning 500 cities and a bazillion credz wouldn't make a difference. To say someone isn't equal because he has achieved more in game and should be respected more is a joke.

That makes him different to most of us who're more passive in-game, not well-known and have not much influence over the player base.

The way someone chooses to play the game is up to them. He is not a better person in game or out of game because he has more items/wealth.

So when someone of us get caught for sploiting and we post on forums, other players wont believe this and just troll us.

It shouldn't be on forums, other topics get removed right away. In real life people are equal in a court of law irrespective of where they come from, well that is how it should be.

So Arty posted his conversation with the gm to clear his name and rightly so.

Well it should have been deleted, others have in the past, double standards by FC.

I don't think many of those people you talk about made this effort. So I think it's only normal that FC reacted in this case.

Many did, even more quit, there were some incidents with clan not so long ago which got brushed under the carpet. Similar FC non thinking before acting. Its never been addressed or apologies. The people left. Any post about it got deleted.

[thecheeseman]

the question i have for funcom is, if you ever plan to make new engine and attract new players, will you allow game economy abuse and monopoly take place?
a new player joins in the future, expects a sci fi game and see swords everywhere, and the price of everything is in the millions. lets be realistic here, most will quit in this situation.

most new players that quit tell me their problems were
#1: many things in the game doesn't make sense. especially when they get to shadowlands and you "things are really weird". there needs to be more quests and story to explain what the shadowlands is. the science fiction atmosphere is nonexistant after you leave rubi kah.
#2: many also complained about having to "make money all the time". good items are too expensive, so you try to get it from the monster that drops it. but the same person that sells those items for high prices farms them and ks you.

falling away from the science fiction storyline/theme, credit inflation. these two problems will ensure AO's possible relaunch will not be successful. especially once game reviewers notice this.

[spookiepants]

falling away from the science fiction storyline/theme, credit inflation. these two problems will ensure AO's possible relaunch will not be successful. especially once game reviewers notice this.

this boy speaks the truth.

[trousers]

falling away from the science fiction storyline/theme, credit inflation. these two problems will ensure AO's possible relaunch will not be successful. especially once game reviewers notice this.

Sweet Jesus, i am agreeing with Catcrab ...

[Nab2000]

short ingame movies and audio clips could help with the storyline, alot

something similar to the animated series

[Mereditche]

FFS, this is a game, at most it can be called a hobby by some but to be called work is sad. Go out of your house, smell a rose, eat a cake, look around. There is a real world. What people can achieve within a game is irrelevant as once FC closes the plug on the servers it amounts to nothing. Same as death.

What you can achieve in life isn't centered about wealth or fame. Sure being a billionaire gets you some hot chicks but it's a shallow affair. Friendships, relationships, family, enjoyment and happiness is what matters in life. Being content with you life. You don't need to own half the globe, be president or even well know to have these. Who do you respect most? A doctor who works all night and saves a life or a business man who got lucky on the stockmarket?

Why do I play AO? Because I enjoy the time in game with the friends I have made in game. We do things together, talk in org channel / tells. Have a laugh about things, sometimes at FC expense. Owning 500 cities and a bazillion credz wouldn't make a difference. To say someone isn't equal because he has achieved more in game and should be respected more is a joke.

So you're making a fuss about a game director apologising over a mistake his people made, that put one of his customers in a bad light. While by your own advice, you should go out of the house, smell a rose and eat a cake? The usual "it's only a game" is getting old, since it's obviously more than that for many players who spend 100's of days in it". RL friendships and relationships are not neverending. So again by your logic, those are also irrelevant and amounting to nothing.

The way you ask the question holds half of the answer. Which do you respect most? A doctor who prescribes needless treatments to healthy patients, so he can profit from the wellfare system or a business man who worked 16 hours a day all his life to keep his company in good shape and provide employment to 20 happy employees?

The way someone chooses to play the game is up to them. He is not a better person in game or out of game because he has more items/wealth.

It's you who is judging people, not the other way around. I said specificly in my post that it doesn't make you better. People will however react differently towards you, depending on how you play the game.

It shouldn't be on forums, other topics get removed right away. In real life people are equal in a court of law irrespective of where they come from, well that is how it should be.

Well, now you're confusing game and IRL. I'm pretty sure if Arty has spend his time being an ass to everyone, people would have reacted differently when his bad luck became known. Now, because he always acted correct, people supported him, even his clan 'enemies' posted in support. It's not something Means or anyone else has control over. It's his merit. And this support pushed FC to make a statement. You can only hope people will treat you the same way if this ever happens to you. I'm pretty sure, I wouldn't get much support, as almost no one knows me and I'm pretty much an ass most of the time. So again, people will treat us different, depending on how we act in this game. It's silly to expect equal treatment, at least I dont.

Well it should have been deleted, others have in the past, double standards by FC.

Maybe they really exploited. Btw, nothing was ever posted on these forums, only a link to an external site, and that link was deleted by mods.

Many did, even more quit, there were some incidents with clan not so long ago which got brushed under the carpet. Similar FC non thinking before acting. Its never been addressed or apologies. The people left. Any post about it got deleted.

Maybe they really exploited? duh! The tl5 enfo that could dimach all the time was pretty strange at least. I don't think that's as easy to explain as 500 cl on a lvl 90 trader right?

[Roswell]

....A post completely about Artyomis....

This is the fundamental problem with Means original post. Whether or not you're a stand up guy isn't the issue. Whether or not you made this public in order to get the attention of Funcom is not the issue. Whether or not your wealth, in game, has anything to do with this thread is not the issue.

This isn't about Doctors, Car Dealers, Story lines, Shadowlands, what people do for a living in the real world, Funcom being "badass", life, death, favoritism, reputation, cheese, feeling all warm and fuzzy inside because your Game Director is cool, or me.

An exploitation complaint was leveled against a player (who he is makes no difference) in PRIVATE to Funcom. Funcom investigated, passed judgement and sentenced said player in PRIVATE. (The fairness of this sentencing is irrelevant to the public. Funcom is not a democracy, it's a PRIVATE company.) The player chooses to make this public, like everyone does in cases like this, for whatever reason, any of which are irrelevant. Then something unprecedented happens. Funcom makes a PUBLIC statement discussing Exploitation, how there going to deal with Exploitation, and makes a public apology to a specific player. Now this matter is no longer a PRIVATE matter between Funcom and a player who is sharing ONLY his side of the story to the public.

This brings us back to the fundamental problem. Attention is being deflected away from the core problem that lead us to this point. Making certain information about this particular case public only hurts the efforts to correct the core problem. The player base needs to hold Funcom to the fire until this problem is fixed. Not be distracted by the irrelevant specifics of ONE case.

In my opinion, as long as you can cheat in this game any other fix is redundant. Short of the game not working at all, cheating is the highest priority, and all efforts should be concentrated on stopping it completely, no matter the cost, and post haste. Don't apologize, don't be our friend, and don't be cool, just fix the goddamn problem.

[vallikat]

This is the fundamental problem with Means original post. Whether or not you're a stand up guy isn't the issue. Whether or not you made this public in order to get the attention of Funcom is not the issue. Whether or not your wealth, in game, has anything to do with this thread is not the issue.

This isn't about Doctors, Car Dealers, Story lines, Shadowlands, what people do for a living in the real world, Funcom being "badass", life, death, favoritism, reputation, cheese, feeling all warm and fuzzy inside because your Game Director is cool, or me.

An exploitation complaint was leveled against a player (who he is makes no difference) in PRIVATE to Funcom. Funcom investigated, passed judgement and sentenced said player in PRIVATE. (The fairness of this sentencing is irrelevant to the public. Funcom is not a democracy, it's a PRIVATE company.) The player chooses to make this public, like everyone does in cases like this, for whatever reason, any of which are irrelevant. Then something unprecedented happens. Funcom makes a PUBLIC statement discussing Exploitation, how there going to deal with Exploitation, and makes a public apology to a specific player. Now this matter is no longer a PRIVATE matter between Funcom and a player who is sharing ONLY his side of the story to the public.

This brings us back to the fundamental problem. Attention is being deflected away from the core problem that lead us to this point. Making certain information about this particular case public only hurts the efforts to correct the core problem. The player base needs to hold Funcom to the fire until this problem is fixed. Not be distracted by the irrelevant specifics of ONE case.

In my opinion, as long as you can cheat in this game any other fix is redundant. Short of the game not working at all, cheating is the highest priority, and all efforts should be concentrated on stopping it completely, no matter the cost, and post haste. Don't apologize, don't be our friend, and don't be cool, just fix the goddamn problem.

I think it was Adam West's Batman who said it best when he said, "poor, misguided youth."

[Regidoc]

This is the fundamental problem with Means original post. Whether or not you're a stand up guy isn't the issue. Whether or not you made this public in order to get the attention of Funcom is not the issue. Whether or not your wealth, in game, has anything to do with this thread is not the issue.

This isn't about Doctors, Car Dealers, Story lines, Shadowlands, what people do for a living in the real world, Funcom being "badass", life, death, favoritism, reputation, cheese, feeling all warm and fuzzy inside because your Game Director is cool, or me.

An exploitation complaint was leveled against a player (who he is makes no difference) in PRIVATE to Funcom. Funcom investigated, passed judgement and sentenced said player in PRIVATE. (The fairness of this sentencing is irrelevant to the public. Funcom is not a democracy, it's a PRIVATE company.) The player chooses to make this public, like everyone does in cases like this, for whatever reason, any of which are irrelevant. Then something unprecedented happens. Funcom makes a PUBLIC statement discussing Exploitation, how there going to deal with Exploitation, and makes a public apology to a specific player. Now this matter is no longer a PRIVATE matter between Funcom and a player who is sharing ONLY his side of the story to the public.

This brings us back to the fundamental problem. Attention is being deflected away from the core problem that lead us to this point. Making certain information about this particular case public only hurts the efforts to correct the core problem. The player base needs to hold Funcom to the fire until this problem is fixed. Not be distracted by the irrelevant specifics of ONE case.

In my opinion, as long as you can cheat in this game any other fix is redundant. Short of the game not working at all, cheating is the highest priority, and all efforts should be concentrated on stopping it completely, no matter the cost, and post haste. Don't apologize, don't be our friend, and don't be cool, just fix the goddamn problem.

As is the case with most coding, unfortunately the best way to find any problems with code or loop hole in a system is through use, whether intentional or unintentional. Seeing as how there is millions and millions of lines of code that is responsible for a game like AO, it can be near impossible for a single group to discover everything. Sure, FC has found a few problems in the coding and resolved it themselves but the majority of "exploits" in the code are not found by them, but by players. The biggest reason for that is that there is MANY more of us than there are of them. Which, of course, I'm you know about already. It's the same with testing new components, items, zones, etc. They can only test so much, the playerbase usually finds the rest.

By changing said policy concerning exploits, it allows the devs themselves to look at the exploit. Not only to confirm if it WAS one, but whether it can be fixed, how and how quickly.

I'm failing to understand why you're putting such a stink up about this. Perhaps you could explain it?