Friday with Means - September 11th, 2009 - Video Q&A, Sceenies and Info-Nuggets

[toastyking]

The power of docs to heal and mitigate damage and the usefulness (or lack thereof) of some professions in a raid situation are 2 completely different problems. Changing docs effectiveness in pvm will do absolutely nothing to make people want an MP, fixer, or agent in their pande or (insert raid instance here) team. Nerfing a doc (or a crat or an enfo) in pvm will change one thing - the number of docs (or crats) required to complete a raid.

If the problem is that too many professions are useless in raid situations, then the obvious solution is to give them tools that make them useful, viable alternatives to the currently "required" professions and not to nerf the professions that are currently required. Some possible examples

Means has said more than once that crats are and will continue to be important additions to raid teams because of their ability to mitigate damage (init debuffs, boss calms, etc)
Finding a creative way to give some of the currently "useless" professions weaker (but still useful) versions of some of these tools might make them viable alternatives to a crat when none can be found to do a raid. We currently see this with keepers/fixers. 12 man teams would rather have a keeper, but in a pinch a fixer will get the job done, but not quite as easily as a keeper.

Giving agents access to the SL doc heals up the level 214 or possibly 216 heal. In this way, if for some reason you couldn't locate a top notch doc for a raid, an agent or two, or an agent and a weaker doc would work well enough. We currently see this in the vortexx instance - if you can't find a doc, a couple of advs in concert with a crat will get the job done just fine, although not quite as easily as a doc can.

Of course, the dark side here is that by giving other professions access to these tools, there is the potential for drastically OPing other professions in pvp. I'm sure that with some creativity, however, that such problems can be miminized or avoided, especially considering that means seems committed to removing the ridiculous OPing of any one profession in the long term.

and I'm not saying dont nerf a docs pvm ability EVER...im just saying that changing a doc's pvp effectiveness isn't appropriate until you solve the problem that necessitates their current level PVM of effectiveness.

[Mereditche]

The power of docs to heal and mitigate damage and the usefulness (or lack thereof) of some professions in a raid situation are 2 completely different problems. Changing docs effectiveness in pvm will do absolutely nothing to make people want an MP, fixer, or agent in their pande or (insert raid instance here) team. Nerfing a doc (or a crat or an enfo) in pvm will change one thing - the number of docs (or crats) required to complete a raid.

If the problem is that too many professions are useless in raid situations, then the obvious solution is to give them tools that make them useful, not to nerf the professions that are required.

and I'm not saying dont nerf a docs pvm ability EVER...im just saying that you can't change a docs effectiveness until you solve the problem that necessitates their current level PVM of effectiveness.

Insane heals on doc and insane hp on tanks leads to encounters balanced around those insane heals and hp. This = bad (imo).

And no, noone wants to go from useless to 2nd rank option. The result is /lft anyway.

[Ellarisa]

warning: wall of text >.<

lol, docs being so needed in pvm is cause people are too narrow minded and too scared/lazy to try other combinations.
personally when i cant find a doc (hey, i like having it fairly easy also) i try other combinations.
i've seen:
- vortexx with just an agent and advy
- full ai raid with 3 engis and a mp
- full ai raid with a crat and a engi (with mp and NT on follow to leach axp)
- mitaar with crat+engi (also heared of shade/sol doing it with a crat)
- apf 28 with an agent tanking and 1 doc (this was interesting)
- apf 13 with a keeper tanking the boss

seriously, the only reason why people think those profs are needed for all the end game content is cause they dont try other combinations.
docs having more trouble keeping their nano up seems like a good change, cause atm they can just spam dots and heals while in full CC and their nano bar will still barely move.

so what is all that content where docs are really needed? cause the only one i can think of is 12 man. (pande stuff is prolly doable with advy+agent or somesuch if people know what they are doing)
---------
some opinions/questions/... for Mr Means:
- leveling: i dont think levelign is too hard, not by fa (too easy imo even), i think the problem is that it's just too boring (i know i dont much like the lvling grind cause of it). those daily missions will probably help with this, but some more quests similar to arid rift (but then xp/SK as reward) would be nice. i dont think we need better xp/sk, we just need more ways to get xp/sk that are about the same xp/sk per hour.
- professional program: how bout it? i sent my application to famine for the open engi spot back in january or february (i'd have to look up the exact date)
- noob island: i generally like it and it improved quite a bit when you guys put in those 2 extra quest guys (the one that gives shiny band and the one that gives the backpack and upgrades yer weapons). a good improvement hear might be to have mission window open at the start and to have a quest to talk to mr thorn (like suggested earlier).
other then that it's not half bad.
another option would be to start the player off in a tutorial room, where they get some explanation about their profession, implants, skills,... in my mind i see a sequence of a couple of rooms that you get guided through by a hologram woman who explains you room per room about some basic game stuff. for example you start off in a room where you start off by learning to run forward/backward/sideways, with a little ledge you have to jump up to get to the next room. in room 2 you learn about combat and so on. after completing the tutorial (that could be skipped ofc) ya could still insert the shuttle crash and the current newbie island
- the crash sequence everyone talks about: is this some type of movie or something? i have 27 toons and i've never seen this...
- the heads: they look really nice, but the opi heads posted above look a little too round.
- pet sillyness: did you guys figure out why this is happening yet? would like to see this fixed asap, cause it is annoying >.>
- G15 support: if you look up a pic of this keyb you'll see a display at the top, it is possible to write a plugin or w/e for this that lets you display stuff on there. Timeshift shows hp bar on here for example. i find its usefullness debatable, but that's just me
- website changes mentioned: good to hear it'll get more info, cause atm the info on the game itself (professions and such) isn't much. just dont forget to put a link to The Prophet without Honour on their somewhere when you change it this time
- IRRK: good to see that it's back!
- you trying out other MMO's cause they usually do something right, even if the game sucks: yeah true, from what i've seen and heared most of the bigger MMO's have something that is really nice, some stolen from AO, some stolen by AO, like the right click to block function in eve online (their chat stuff isn't all that great besides that imo though )
- sillyness: i can has pink BoC? how about pink widow?
- if you're ever in belgium, lemme know, i'll buy you a few beers

sorry for the loads of text, hope you didnt fall asleep while reading ^^
Greetings,



Ellarisa

[toastyking]

Doc heals really aren't THAT insane compared to a few years ago.

Docs have gotten some new team heals, which, I think most docs would agree were LONG overdue, as the previously available team heals were next to useless in any tl7 situation.

Docs have also gotten a moderate boost to healing efficiency via several items compared to a few years ago. Yes, it is possible to get a rather dramatic increase in healing efficiency, but you have to give up a little in other areas to make that happen.

Other than that docs have gotten ICH - which i will admit is pretty insane, but most of the healing capacity on that nano goes to waste, as 140k HP (my docs healing with ICH) is something that isn't realizable.

What makes doc doc SL heals seem to be OP today as compared to 4 years ago is that everyone else is taking FAR less damage, largely thanks to the massive amounts of AAD and evades available now compared to then combined with some very powerful damage mitigating tools (mostly coming from crats) that dramatically reduce the damage that bosses are able to dish out.

The fact that some people act like elitist snobs and will only accept a keeper in 12 man and not a fixer (or 2 advs in vortex instead of one doc) is a completely separate issue, and probably one that FC can't really do anything about. I know that I don' t speak for the population at large, but I have absolutely no problem taking a substitute profession (like a fixer in 12 man) to help get the job done. If I had to take 2 agents instead of a doc to get pande done, that would be perfectly acceptable as well; its only one more mouth to feed and we don't waste time waiting around because the "ideal" profession isn't currently available.

All FC can do is give as many professions as possible useful tools to help teams get the job done - what they can't do is to change the mindset of the playerbase, which, far too often seems to be "screw that fixer, if we don't get a keeper we aren't gonna bother with 12 man" as an example. If you ask me, this kind of thinking is why, despite having (in some theoretical example) perfectly valid, but slightly weaker versions of the currently "required" professions toolsets, they still would not be chosen for a raid. People would seem to rather wait around for 90 minutes for a doc than to pick up the 2 220 agents on lft right now who could get the job done just fine - only because agents aren't the "ideal" choice.

[Mereditche]

(hey, i like having it fairly easy also)

...like everyone else. That's the whole issue. I don't care if someone did it with a trader and NT once in a blue moon. The fact is 9 professions are /lftlike forever.

I'd rather not wait for people mentality to change, which will never happen, since we're all greedy and selfish by nature and look for max efficiency, especially if the item grind is retardedly long.

That's why FC should give the right incentives when creating these instances/raids/etc. Or make the grind not favour minimal numbers.

In the past during exp grind teams where always full, because more people = faster exp. AO wants to promote teaming, still in their latest content, they keep giving incentives to 2-man everything.

[Mereditche]

All FC can do is give as many professions as possible useful tools to help teams get the job done - what they can't do is to change the mindset of the playerbase

No, as long as the mechanism of low droprate loot stays, people will always do it with the least number possible, so there will always be a new ideal combination.

Changing the mindset of the playerbase is indeed impossible. What is possible is changing the mechanism. Now every player more you take = 1 chance less to win the item. So FC needs to make the chance of getting the item independent of the number of people you take inside.

If Fc wants to keep AO a team-based game they should stop giving the incentive to 2-man stuff because of retarded low droprates.

Solutions:
-bigger drop chance per added team member
or
-make it a quest that requires you to kill the mob several times, preserving the 'grind'.
or
- make upgrades profession dependent, so the enfo doesn't loose chances on the item by bringing an extra trader (you have to remove nodrop selling off course). If trader 'item' drops it would be useless anyway for the enfo.

[Luiza]

Only one question: Are neutrals still getting new neck items means? or will we get 221 application forms and a kick in the face?

[strikingthematch]

I always wondered why these boss inst. can't be more like RK team mishs... the more people you have the more loot the boss drops... If that was lvl'ed out correctly then things like 12 man might see a number close to 12 because it would be easier/faster AND still a very good chance at loot. As many others have said there needs to be a reason for someone to invite more then the bare min of people. In an item grind world the chance at more loot might just make that choice easier. Clearly this would take a large amount of work to get the numbers right but I believe it would help level the playing field without the need to change toolsets/ nerf half the prof. Just an idea but hey its a start...

[dustmouse]

You know, that actually sounds like a great idea, and so simple

[Aethyrguard]

The best way to fix raid encounters is to give "reward coin" that can be spent at a vendor for every member in attendance. You see, let's take s42 for example. If every raider got a "coin" for attending which could be redeemed at the end of the raid regardless of who got the two ACDC's that dropped then more people might actually be interested in doing it. Same with beast, other raid content as well.

The boss mobs could still drop the items purchasable in the vendor but obviously not requiring any of these "points" to purchase. In essence, remove the entire validity of "raid bots !points".

Everyone knows a RL that is good will almost always have enough points to outbid everyone else simply because of attendance. That outbidding thing is one of the problems itself. We could argue semantics about whether every item from a zone should be purchasable in the vendor or not but that is more of a discussion for the elitists I would assume.

I'd much rather be guaranteed the effort == reward method than the luck of the random roll or bidding systems that are rampant in AO as of current because everyone would be rewarded and people wouldn't feel as inclined to leave out others simply to increase their own chances at loot.

[Raynefists]

I couldn't disagree more with you. Please no new item grinds. Expand <---> this way not ^ that way. thanks

I specifically said that they should reduce the current grinds by increasing drop rates. Also, if you read what he posted you would see they aren't even expanding horizontally, let alone vertically. They are just making you pay to do a new instance that drops the same exact stuff you probably already have. Personally i don't like paying money for something i get absolutely nothing out of, maybe you are different.

so what is all that content where docs are really needed? cause the only one i can think of is 12 man. (pande stuff is prolly doable with advy+agent or somesuch if people know what they are doing)

It's not about being absolutely 100% needed, in a pinch you can get other set ups to work. It's about the level of effort required. Enfs/sold/crat/doctor make raids orders of magnitude easier, and frankly most people suck at this game in pvm, so making raids easier greatly increases loot/time. This is even more true in the lockout instances where you can only loot so often, so bringing extra people or setups that are non-optimal is indeed a waste of time.

No, as long as the mechanism of low droprate loot stays, people will always do it with the least number possible, so there will always be a new ideal combination.

I don't agree at all. People do pand with more than the bare minimum to do it. Often they will fill out the raid with sub-optimal classes just for some extra dps. This is because if you minimize the number of people you take the raid ends up taking 5 hours. DPS is actually useful to have in pand, so people bring it. This is also true in sector 35 and sector 42. If you give players a reason to bring other classes, they will be brought.

[Aethyrguard]

I specifically said that they should reduce the current grinds by increasing drop rates. Also, if you read what he posted you would see they aren't even expanding horizontally, let alone vertically. They are just making you pay to do a new instance that drops the same exact stuff you probably already have. Personally i don't like paying money for something i get absolutely nothing out of, maybe you are different.

But this isn't something we have already. It is a new way to get XP in the level ranges that need it most. It will be "a part of" a new booster, not the entire booster itself. I think you are over dramatizing your point of view and I don't understand why? If you have no interest in the new boosters content then you don't have to worry about buying it, what is so wrong with that?

[Underak]

Hehehe, it is a brilliant video, thanks for the laugh. The first time when I arrived at the newcomer island, I ran left too!

2:47-3:00

[Raynefists]

But this isn't something we have already. It is a new way to get XP in the level ranges that need it most.

Mind providing a source for that? i haven't seen anything posted to this effect by means or anyone else.

It will be "a part of" a new booster, not the entire booster itself. I think you are over dramatizing your point of view and I don't understand why? If you have no interest in the new boosters content then you don't have to worry about buying it, what is so wrong with that?

The xan is just 'a part of' the last booster, but it is the focal point and ultimate reason for doing the content. If this new booster follows the same mold, and there's no reason to think otherwise other than speculation, then the content will simply be leading up to an instance that offers me nothing.

What bothers me is that there has been no high end content added to the game since lox, and all that's on the slate is levelling instances and now a new raid instance to make an already easy item grind even easier, with absolutely no actual new content for pvm anywhere on the horizon. Frankly i don't feel like continuing to pay if my only options are a) wait and hope for new content or b) roll an alt and be forced to buy a booster because no one does the original content anymore.

[Esproc]

bump for updating old content ^^

Subway/ToTW/Foremans/IS are still my favorite play areas.

Though more cyber punk would be nicer

And yeah, boosters that don't add content/items are not useful.
Don't charge us more to fix what needs to be fixed, just fix it.
We are paying per month/year anyway :/

[Mereditche]

I don't agree at all. People do pand with more than the bare minimum to do it. Often they will fill out the raid with sub-optimal classes just for some extra dps. This is because if you minimize the number of people you take the raid ends up taking 5 hours. DPS is actually useful to have in pand, so people bring it. This is also true in sector 35 and sector 42. If you give players a reason to bring other classes, they will be brought.

Well we actually do. In earlier discussions I state that problem mainly occurs with instances where you are immediattely at boss encounter and that adding trash mobs would also be an incentive to take DD along.

I've posted this same story so many times already, I'm getting lazy and shorten it down. Apf and beast are indeed less problematic. Because the optimal time vs reward lies with more DD.

[Aethyrguard]

Mind providing a source for that? i haven't seen anything posted to this effect by means or anyone else.



The xan is just 'a part of' the last booster, but it is the focal point and ultimate reason for doing the content. If this new booster follows the same mold, and there's no reason to think otherwise other than speculation, then the content will simply be leading up to an instance that offers me nothing.

What bothers me is that there has been no high end content added to the game since lox, and all that's on the slate is levelling instances and now a new raid instance to make an already easy item grind even easier, with absolutely no actual new content for pvm anywhere on the horizon. Frankly i don't feel like continuing to pay if my only options are a) wait and hope for new content or b) roll an alt and be forced to buy a booster because no one does the original content anymore.

Are you for real? No I am not going to quote Means posts from this topic list and threads. If you are going to complain about something or lack there of please at least have the common courtesy of reading the game directors posts before replying.

Means has stated not once in a single thread but numerous times in many that there is a new mid level playfield being created to address the giant gap in leveling between elly and inferno. If you cannot understand why this is important then I am sorry but I have no words to offer you in support.

I do however feel you are being nasty for no reason and asking for more "junk" to "grind" is just sickening to me. Many feel there are too many grinds already.

What you are saying is "I don't care about new players, I don't care about people rolling alts, Kite hill is a solution! 165's in Inferno to leech teams is a solution!", when they are symptoms of problems that have been repeatedly brought up as such for years.

Adding new content on to the end of the game is the ABSOLUTE last thing this game needs. There is plenty to do once you hit 220, if you don't think so then perhaps you need to spend some time away from your keyboard and more time in the world around you and it won't seem like such. AO is one of the most grindy games every created and worsening that grind will only serve to diminish the dwindling playerbase even faster.

Fear not tho, daily quests are coming. That should give you something to grind each day at your own pace without anyone's help required.

[strikingthematch]

That idea would work great for a place like sec 42 where getting the people can be a problem because of so few player being on and the feeling that it requires to many people for the amount of loot. It would provide a great way to lure players in because they will all get "something" out of it.
On the other hand raids like 12man and such finding people is not the problem. Rather including all profs. is and therefore I believe that at least expanding loot table **only as more members are added** would help ensure that team makers want to pick up more people but because it may mean that "rare" drop is more likely to happen. Say it came down to the 1 doc or 2 agents on LFT no one would feel bad about picking up two agents because they know loot will be adjusted.
Now of course that loot may not be useful to anyone or maybe they all still want the same one item but that is part of PvM i don't think many people expect to get what they want the very first time up but when it does happen it makes you feel great. If everyone got what they needed in a few runs there would be nothing left to do.

The best way to fix raid encounters is to give "reward coin" that can be spent at a vendor for every member in attendance. You see, let's take s42 for example. If every raider got a "coin" for attending which could be redeemed at the end of the raid regardless of who got the two ACDC's that dropped then more people might actually be interested in doing it. Same with beast, other raid content as well.

The boss mobs could still drop the items purchasable in the vendor but obviously not requiring any of these "points" to purchase. In essence, remove the entire validity of "raid bots !points".

Everyone knows a RL that is good will almost always have enough points to outbid everyone else simply because of attendance. That outbidding thing is one of the problems itself. We could argue semantics about whether every item from a zone should be purchasable in the vendor or not but that is more of a discussion for the elitists I would assume.

I'd much rather be guaranteed the effort == reward method than the luck of the random roll or bidding systems that are rampant in AO as of current because everyone would be rewarded and people wouldn't feel as inclined to leave out others simply to increase their own chances at loot.

[Raynefists]

Are you for real? No I am not going to quote Means posts from this topic list and threads. If you are going to complain about something or lack there of please at least have the common courtesy of reading the game directors posts before replying.

Means has stated not once in a single thread but numerous times in many that there is a new mid level playfield being created to address the giant gap in leveling between elly and inferno. If you cannot understand why this is important then I am sorry but I have no words to offer you in support.

I am not talking about dark ruins. I am talking about the new RAID instance. these are separate things.

We are hoping to get the next version out to Test and possibly to Live in the very near future. Work continued on the new Dark Ruins instance, Final polishing on the nightclub, balancing work and beginnnig implementation of a new "EXPLOSIVE" end game raid instance to also be released within the next month. This is going to be a very very busy month.l

I bolded the important part since apparently you missed it the first time around

Also, disagreeing with you is not 'being nasty'. Your personal attacks, however, are. You have no idea who i am or what my playtime is. AO's grind is not bad at all. You can do most things with 2-3 people, loot drops in large amounts, and everything either has a short lock out timer or none at all. I came back to the game 3 months ago, and went from a naked character to having the best pvm items in almost every spot, on a couple of hours played per week.

Finally, i have repeatedly stressed that if they truly feel the need to reduce the grind, the most obvious way is simply to increase drop rates, instead of creating entirely new instances.

[Aethyrguard]

I am not talking about dark ruins. I am talking about the new RAID instance. these are separate things.



I bolded the important part since apparently you missed it the first time around

Also, disagreeing with you is not 'being nasty'.

You are assuming that his statement about one is referring to the other. I wasn't referring to your statements to me, rather the tone you took in this thread in response to means and his team.