How to fix the 'upgraded' (-000) RK weapons.

[Dancingrage]

So in 17.6 (doesn't it seem like an aeon ago?) FC implemented a way to 'upgrade' some of the classic weaponry to the modern day's Anarchy Online. It was panned, booed off stage, and then the weapons were immediately forgotten, though I don't know if those weapons are used by any froobs or not.

Panning aside, I took a look at these weapons to see how viable they would be and what it would take to MAKE them viable, and came to a pretty quick conclusion: They'd be decent weapons in most situations under 2 conditions: Assuming you could get your hands on ql300 weapons, which you cannot, and that the requirements were not scaled as poorly as they are (ql 1-300 scales from 1-2000 weaponskill, along the lines of AI weaponry, when this is nowhere near as good as such). For an example, a pistol (which needless to say lacks Burst and thusly immediately loses to the CDR) at 1k skill would net you...92-138 (92), and the weapon ql is 150. For a quick comparison, The CDR is 65-143 (162) (And while every pistolero has them, they're not typical weaponry), and a ql150 AI would be 115-172 (115). Equal requirements for lesser effect does not equal goodness. On top of that, the ones most interested in wielding these weapons, the froobs, lose out because the requirements are so stratospheric comparatively that they're very difficult to attain, and thusly lose out to more common froob options.

The other problem these weapons have in execution as opposed to theory is that while the DB allows for ql300 weapons, in actuality you can only get up to ql200, which compounds the problem earlier of horrible requirement scaling in that you need 1335 in a skill to equip a weapon at ql200 that is sub-par to any and every other option you have available regardless if you're a paid or free user.

Having looked at these weapons for a few, I come to the conclusion that they're not actually BAD weapons, just a few simple mistakes made an OK weaponset into a horrible option for players. Here's how you can fix that:

1) Weaponskill requirements need to be changed. 2000 @ ql300 is fine for AI weapons, not so much for what amounts to a lesser weaponset. 1500 however is more in line with scaling, gives ql200 weapons saner requirements to equip, and combined with suggestion #2, would give a decent challenge to froob characters wanting a challenge to equip better gear.

2) Implement the weapons up to ql300. Part of the idea of these weapons were to have a money sink to pull spare credits out of the system, but the cost vs reward equation failed, partially due to the reasons stated above, partially due to excessive cost to upgrade these weapons. If ql upgrade kits were introduced, that would allow for a 5-25 ql bump in the weapon, achieving ql300 weapons would be possible. Considering that the requirement scale is different than that for AI or LE weapons, this means that there would be points in time in a character's development that an upgraded RK weapon would actually be a viable choice.

This should take a weaponset that got horrible press and make it more viable not just for froobs, who could use such an option for endgame raiding on RK, but also for paid players at certain points in their development. Certainly some professions that have horrible weaponskills would benefit from having weapons with easier requirements.

(PS: Pistols need Burst!)

[Technogen]

Didnt read all of this, I will later but I agree a usable upgrade to these would be nice.

[Metalynx]

Agreed. the issue they had was allot fo work, for not even comparable use with easier to get weapons ingame.

Just make it a tradeskill that doesnt require the dropped kits (or at least make it a one kit deal), and for gods sake..make some VARIETY in damage (every weapon does the same dmg....bleh).

These were ALMOST a great idea....that /failed because someone didnt spend a few more days on the idea.

Id love to use a retooled Minigrinner on a toon again. I miss using a Mausser (dont shoot me..I like the looks....kinda a bulky durable submachine gun).

[Dancingrage]

Just got done with a bit of testing on Testlive with my froob baby fix and a few runs around. Much thanks to Macque and Johnnycage for helping me get the bits together to test this weapon out, and I'll post more about my thoughts on this when I get a few minutes to rub together.

[Towerblock]

The way it was presented, I had gotten the impression that we could pick and choose which upgrades were to be put on weapons. True for the most part, but the upgrades were specific to certain weapons. I could not, say, add a FA ability to any pistol, which for all intents and purposes, might have added an extra 25 pts of base damage to a bigburger. (which would have been a slight, but very cool improvement!) It would have also opened to the door to other options (Ranged energy being one of them... or blunt weapons with sneak attack... or Aim Shot options, with low base damage, but give people without godly amounts of twink gear to actually get on something other than a baseline corona (not possible to throw on troller pistol on some profs without sacrifices)

You'd put just a teaspoon full of power into the hands of a froob as well.

Chiming in on another similar subject, the weapon upgrades that drop from aliens would also be a great way to revive older weapons. We could have some expansion on this as well. Aside from the arctic metaplast maces... ive not seen anyone really use any of this stuff.

[Technogen]

I was thinking a nice way to upgrade them would be though arid rift, make random drops there that upgrade the RK weapons and RK armors.

[Litestrider]

I'd love to see this idea expanded upon. With our lovely unlimited database, there's no reason not to go through and free up a few new choices in specials. The requirements and QL 300 iteration should be the top priorities, however. I think these weapons should be nearly equal to the AI weapons, just on a different scale, being more powerful in the mid and low end of QLs, and tapering faster such that AI weapons match and overtake them at the higher end. Not by a massive amount, but enough to be very noticeable.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, these weapons all have very slow special recharges. If so, the base damage could be made to be quite nice, with the specials reining the weapon in a bit.

[Dancingrage]

This is by no means a scientific test, just subjective observations over a few days while using different weapons. I'll need to go get a dumper to see about the scientific method of seeing which would do better.

The toon in question is a froob fixer I'm levelling on Testlive. I moved him over with a ql90 Mausser Chemical Streamer (popped that on at 35) and did some levelling in TOTW to get used to the toon again.

For most who've messed around with it, the Mausser's got a pretty wild spread for damage. I could hit 300+ one shot, then in the low double digits the next (think 15). This applies to bursts as well. I could do over 800 damage in one burst, but the next one could be 200ish. It's a good froob SMG, if slow on the attack, and it's burst recharge is very nice. I've laid out a number of towersites with this gun, and put down plenty of mobs and players as well.

Suppressor - C04 at ql73 is the weapon I scraped together with a bit of shop work and a lot of help from Macque and Johnnycage on Testlive. The advanced upgrades are not available from quests until you're lv 60 (though they're ql180 and work with all qls to date) and as a 44 toon I would be hard pressed to get Engineer Heath Bridges to even talk to me.

Once I managed to pop this gun on, one wrangle and RC later, I ran off to go shoot things with it. It's a very steady gun in comparison to the Mausser's wide range, but, unsurprisingly, I wasn't impressed with it's damage range. 120-180 damage per shot, with 270ish crits, and bursts that sat squarely in the 400 range. It's a very reliable gun. It also, as you can see, reqs 490 SMG to put on, and for that much skill I'd expect a bit more oomph. QL 100, under the 1500 scale, actually would be the oomph I would be looking for for 500 skill. It's no Perennium Beamer at ql100 but it wouldn't be slacking for 500 SMG requirements.

This pretty much confirms what I suspected, that the -000 series would be better off if it had a lower scaling rate than the AI weapons it was patterned after.

Other recommendations however are that an option for lower level toons to be able to get their hands on the upgrades should be made available, since before level 60 would be a really good time to get some of these weapons (assuming the scaling were fixed) and put 'em to use. Sure it wouldn't take long to ask a buddy, but the ability to go and do it yourself never hurts.

Metalynx hit on another problem that I noticed: every weapon does the exact same damage type. Every SMG out there does Projectile damage. Every melee weapon does Melee damage that I've seen. I'd like a bit more in the way of options for damage types. Chemical/Radiation/etc, more options and more damage types would encourage me to not stick to one SMG but to keep a few handy and up-to-date in the event that, say, I need to go up against a mob that I know has a weak spot in THIS AC type. Or say I get invited to an Urqhart raid, I need to have more damage type options than just Proj, since I'm going to be seeing lots of 1k reflect problems. It would encourage having more weapons handy, and if the weapon kits were more appropriately priced, would mean that another money sink actually started to work.

As much as I liked the idea of build-your-own weapons, I'm reminded of the fact that the DB recently just hit it's 2gb limit in terms of how big it could get, though it was then upgraded, which is why 6-slot implants were not allowed. Having extremely customizable weapons would wind up with every pistolero using FullAuto and Aimed Shot pistols, but also that the database would swell in size trying to keep up with every potential weapon special combination. I would prefer buildable weapons but I have to bow to the fact that the database would probably cry a river trying to manage all that.

That said, assuming these weapons get fixed, I wouldn't mind seeing more of the primary weaponskills covered. A Heavy Weapons option would be nice, as would a Martial Arts option. (I guess though that the Parry Stick would have to do.)

[Dancingrage]

More thoughts:

It occurs to me that with a lower scale, that there would be times in a toon's career when a -000 weapon would be comparable with LE or AI weaponry at a similar requirement.

Let's take for example, the Rifle. Agent standby for years. I used one once on my main MP and got asked lots for FG while using it. A common weapon used at TL5 would be Ofab Cobra Mk 6, while the RK response is found in the ql300 Gluegun - C02.

Ofab Cobra mk 6 has 7 more min damage, 25 more max, and 7 more crit modifier than the Gluegun, but has another 152 Rifle skill to equip, assuming that the 1500 scale is used. It is faster by .3/.3 attack and recharge, but does NOT have the 2% chance to stun that the Gluegun would have. For a TL5 agent, this would be something you'd consider having handy, especially if you already have Joy of the Hunt (also a 2/2 rifle) and are accustomed to using it. I'd have one in my gunrack at TL5 on my agent.

Next I decided to look at 2he for kicks. Ofab Wolf Mk 6 was a no brainer for this one, and unsurprisingly it does what it does well. On the other hand, you have an array of 2he -000 weapons that aren't THAT much weaker than the Wolf but have bonuses to them. I picked QL300 Bladestaff - 870 simply because it came with 45 to 2he as a bonus for equipping. Pop that sucker on and you get more AR. Other options are for more speed, a nuke proc, or just really cool looks.

The differences are slimmer here than on the rifles: .1/.1 difference in speed, 13 difference min damage, 20 in max damage. The -000 weapon has a bonus that basically means an always-on Glory. It would be a tougher decision if you were a keeper or enfo at TL5+ and wanted to know what a good weapon for this title range would be for a twink. Once again, assuming the 1500 scale and ql300 weapons implemented, this would mean it'd be almost as good as a 225 Ofab mk 6 but not as hard to get on.

Unfortunately, Pistols and SMGs don't keep up as well, -000 pistols all lack Burst or Burst versions, while SMGs only have Burst but not Fling nor Full Auto. I noticed that there was a complete lack of Sneak Attack in all melee weapons, so that rules that out (not surprised, there are only 3 slots in any weapon for improvements and one simply makes it nodrop), but some of the effects and procs I see on some of the melee weapons are nice. 1200 Multi-Melee req even on ql300 means it could remain a decent off-hand weapon if you needed it to. Let's not mention the vast differences in maximum beneficial skill that both have (-000 have much better MBS than Ofab weapons do at comparable power levels).

Needless to say, the froobs would eat these weapons up, it would reduce the gross power imbalance by some degree, and give them a taste of what power they could have with expansions, especially if they have a clear comparison basis (the ql300 -000's are the rough equivalent to ql225 Ofab Mk 6s). As before, the 1500 scale would give froob players a real challenge to shoot for as well. I don't think it'd be impossible to get a ql300 -000 on a froob, under a 1500 scale, and such would be a great accomplishment. 2k skill requirement is simply unattainable for a froob player, however, and would be more intimidating than challenging.

The only other thing, and this falls under "Tweaks after fixing the set" is that I'd like the damage ranges at lower qls opened up just a little bit more. Priority wise however fixing the requirement scale and opening up qls to 300 are of the most importance when it comes to making this weaponset viable for use.

(P.S.: Add Burst to Pistols and Full Auto or Fling to SMGs!)

[Xeralix]

bump this idea, i would certainly go on a ql 300 beam with my enfo, just for the cool look!

rk weapon are ftw!

[Saetos]

Honestly, I think the better solution for the weapons problem is to cull out the "shopfood" that's already sold in shops. Means mentioned that they did intentionally put crap weapons in the database so that players would sell them as mission junk to the shop. OK, that's all fine and good. But there's still some really, really bad weapons in that shop (Kang Tao Spitting Cobras I remember the best).

What should happen: drastically reduce the inventory of the weapons shops. Have them sell the "best" of the weapon types, and perhaps the famous buffing ones (Tsakachumis, Intelligence pistols, gunbags, even Cushions occasionally) Also, maybe have two booths for ranged and melee weapons, so that new players can easily sort through the shop instead of wading through endless bow meshes and Kang Tao Spitting Cobras to find an elusive weapon they've heard so much about but can't seem to find.

I may put up a list on what I think are good weapons to sell in the shop in this thread, but that may also be material for a seperate thread.

[Xeralix]

Honestly, I think the better solution for the weapons problem is to cull out the "shopfood" that's already sold in shops. Means mentioned that they did intentionally put crap weapons in the database so that players would sell them as mission junk to the shop. OK, that's all fine and good. But there's still some really, really bad weapons in that shop (Kang Tao Spitting Cobras I remember the best).

What should happen: drastically reduce the inventory of the weapons shops. Have them sell the "best" of the weapon types, and perhaps the famous buffing ones (Tsakachumis, Intelligence pistols, gunbags, even Cushions occasionally) Also, maybe have two booths for ranged and melee weapons, so that new players can easily sort through the shop instead of wading through endless bow meshes and Kang Tao Spitting Cobras to find an elusive weapon they've heard so much about but can't seem to find.

I may put up a list on what I think are good weapons to sell in the shop in this thread, but that may also be material for a seperate thread.

good too, remove crapy just keep buffing weapon, upgradable weapon and some other "good froob weapon"

[Gridpain]

firstly, these weapons have not been build for froobs, and are not usefull for froobs at all (except 1 or 2 specific case)

these weapons were made for 5$ sloob that need weapons with "high" min damage and dont have access to AI weapons (nor LE)

froobs dont need "min damage", and certainly not leveling froobs...

anyway, the main issue with the 000 weapons for 5$ sloobs is indeed the max QL at 200 ...


The only 000 weapons I use are Jointh clan scout 000 for MR buff (looses the advi only req) and trippler 000 for 1HE buff (looses piercing req)

[Notcrattey]

2) Implement the weapons up to ql300. Part of the idea of these weapons were to have a money sink to pull spare credits out of the system, but the cost vs reward equation failed, partially due to the reasons stated above, partially due to excessive cost to upgrade these weapons. If ql upgrade kits were introduced, that would allow for a 5-25 ql bump in the weapon, achieving ql300 weapons would be possible. Considering that the requirement scale is different than that for AI or LE weapons, this means that there would be points in time in a character's development that an upgraded RK weapon would actually be a viable choice.

Please FC.

[Litestrider]

If they do start a db purge, I'll be the first on the "Save the banjos" campaign!

Just a quick note regarding damage types: there is at least one case of a difference. Most assault rifles do projectile damage, while the Flamethrower - 000 does fire damage, fittingly enough.

All in all I still say lower the requirements somewhat, and extend the line to ql 300, and we've got ourselves a very nice batch of weapons. More choices in the specials, even if it's sneak attack or brawl, or burst or no burst, would be a great step forward as well.

Edit: Why don't we have a Banjo - 000?

[Worldofalts]

Big bump for ql 300 extension, and 1500 skill line.

When i first found out about upgradable rubika weapons last year (was it last year, i cant remember) I got very excited for about 10 minutes, until i browsed through auno and was somewhat disappointed. haven't really considered most of the weapons since then. too much effort for little to no gain. (mind you, i do have backpacks and backpacks of weapon upgrade kits in my bank, as do prolly most people, in case they ever do fix this)

[Keex]

either improve them or make them easy+cheap to get as a lowlevel alternative while leveling....or remove them entirely to free up the db. as they are now they are completely senseless..

[Dancingrage]

@Saetos: I'd be happy to see a guide like that but it probably doesn't belong in this thread. It's probably best to write it up elsewhere (knowledge base?) and then link to it here.

Aside from that, most people I've spoken with about it think it's a good idea, I hope this gets fixed soon.

[Keldros]

If they do start a db purge, I'll be the first on the "Save the banjos" campaign!

And what would happen to my mitaar collection?

And on a different note, I wish they would bring back the original weapon sounds for hitting someone with the mitaar and banjo.

[Dancingrage]

riiiise, my thread!!!