More info on LLTS nerf

[georg]

Originally posted by Noer
It seems that there are heavy support from Funcom's customers that this nerf is stupid and that the scopes should just be re-introduced without nerf. Maybe it would be a nice time to actually show that they listen to the customers?

amen.

Disappointed doc, having the viable way of play pvp/pvm wise for months ruined by some nerf happy designer, I'm gone the moment it hits live.

Scopes weren't that important during the uvc days , as ( uvc >> the ips/PENALTIES and work needed to equip a scope so why bother?) but now its the only crit modifier I still have, the only thing which makes my Shotgun/Class(pvp) worthwhile .. abit.
(Currently the -only- weapon worthwhile for a doc pvp wise is an ithaca snakemaster.)

This nerf makes the fast/low damage/ high crit / weapons totally useless, basicly being forced to use a most cases more ip expensive high damage / low crit gun. ( all blue for a doc, lots of ip , and a very bad attack rating).
Removing the init penalty will just give the people who have a class who can easily equip the slow/ good damage weapons another big advantage.

Had a bunch of other points, but the past has shown they might be read, but listened to is a whole different issiue.
Even tho I'd love to see Noer's suggestion.,
The devs have already made up their mind and gave cz/cos the impossible task to defend it.

[_______________Airri]

Originally posted by Vyker

Possible mod to the QL200 ELLTS:

8% crit chance
-1500 Melee Init edit: makes it useless to Enforcers, and other non-MA melees
-500 Nano Init edit: why? there is no such malus now.. so this would be another major nerf, dont expect a life saving Complete Heal in time from your Doc with this
-200 Ranged Init edit: not enough, you loose 7% on crit, there must be a considerable Init Bonus

+30 Damage mod
+100 Off
Perception 200
Aim shot 50 edit: there is already a higher Aimed Shot Bonus, again another nerf
Fling shot 50 edit: does not help people without this
Burst 50 edit: does not help people without this
Full Auto 50 edit: does not help people without this
Dodge-Rng 100
Equip time: 2s

To remember: ELLTS looses Crit Modifier. This is useful for all profs with all weapons. So there must be a compensation that is usefull for all profs and all weapons. And there must be a compensation for the IPs in 2 skills used to equip this in comparision to the 0 IPs needed to equip the alternative.
So this is not a redesign, its a compensation for a nerf. Otherwise it would be easier to delete the LLTS and bring in another competly new item.

that brings me to the following compansations:

8% crit chance
+ Ranged Init
+ Damage mod
+ Off
all Evades +
... don't know what numbers are ok here, but think all must be at least 100+.

There is 1 big problem with a Ranged Init Bonus or at least the elimination of the Ranged Init Malus. This would enable "pure" ranged fighter profs to go on full defense wich in return is a big big nerf to all debuffing profs in PvP, e.g. trader, doc, MP etc. So if you go this way, you need to add bonuses that compansates this for these profs only in PvP. And it must be a bonus that helps them in PvP against "pure" fighters. I don't know what this can be atm. Maybe a % Bonus for the check against the resist of nanos that equals the full def effect.
And of course this would not help the additionell "fast-low-damage" weapon nerf. Yes, you can go on full defense and still shot at 1/1, but you still do no damage with this weapon. And you must do damage to kill something. :-)
The next point, this changes the weapon balance also. People with an LLTS then prolly can use "slow-high-damage" weapons at nearly 1/1, and will do massive damage with them, especially in PvM.

a little conclusion: It looks for me as it would be much easier and much less complicated to skip the crit nerf, as the implications of this nerf are way to complex to not end in a desaster in one way or another. The main problem here is... crit is useful for everyone under every condition. All other skills and bonuses etc. not. So I dont see any complete "fair for all" compensation. Their will always be an additional nerf for some.

PS: ugh ... this was longer then expected. :-)

Airri

[Canto]

1) Cap crits at 15-20% no matter what items or spells one is wearing. Crits should be subject to extreme diminishing returns, not linear as they are now, LOL linear crits.

2) Link crit resistance to armor class as well as evades as it should realistically be.

3) Return damage to 100% in PvP

Doing the above would be fair for all right?? no one profession or thing is nerfed and the damage is returned to 100% in pvp...unless you think MAs somehow should have a monopoly on crits.

[________________Psic]

Making LLTS mission reward again with no nerf, wouldn't balance anything, as the devs see us critting to much as Cz said.

So in my opinion, don't make them drop when the day finally arrives.

Making all loot mission reward just makes the game dull, as already you don't need to break a sweat to obtain 3/4 of the items in the DB.

[_______________Airty]

Cz,

Id like to say that an increase in AMS would be needed to keep the old scopes worth anything, raising the dmg of the fast weak hitting guns is not significant at all.

Would it be couterproductive to be able to use the llts in HUD2 instead of HUD3?

[Mortiseris]

When I got my 13% LLTS I used 7 thats 7 IPR to get the scope and ithica on. On top of that I spent 3-4 million to redo my major implants that affect the gun and scope. So now i have 1 IPR left to switch to a new weapon it will take a minimum of 5 IPR : 3 for the weapon and 2 for the scope kills. At minimum i need 4 IPR points to fix the nerf to my character.

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK
if nothing else, FC could nerf the scope to be useless unless you use a ranged weapon and solve the entire thing.

Fact is, MA's have no business using LLTS, no offence to them but the self only UVC kills any argument that MA's need LLTS.

That coupled with the fact that melee weapons do FAR more minimum damage on average than ranged weapons do AND are infinately faster means, melee's dont need scopes.

I personally have 2 melee profession alts and neither of them use scopes because they simply do not need it.

There is absolutely nothing anyone can say that would convince me scopes need to be useful when NOT using ranged weapons.

What good does Aimed Shot bonus do for an enforcer?

none.

Adventurer?

none.

MA?

ONLY when they use bows, that fits under the useful catigory, other than that, they got no use for a scope. It does more harm than good over all.

My opinion... for what its worth.

Just kill the scope for melee professions, if you dont have a ranged weapon on, its worthless junk. You could easily do that by making the melee init penalty 4X what it is for ranged.

Arg

/sarcasm on

Well by your definition only agents should be allowed to use scopes. After all I'd say aimed shot is supposed to be an agent perk.

Ofcourse since almost everyone runs around w X-3s and ithicas that have aimed shot this is kind of a moot point, but I'm just helping you to get the logical conclusion here and I'm sure you agree with me that they should just slap an 'agent only' requirement on every single gun that uses aimed shot.

Iow your post is complete bs, noone uses scopes for the aimed shot bonus. Everyone wants it for the crit bonus.

What you suggest is making the scopes unusable for melee professions and especially for ma's. Which means ma's get 24% crit chance and oh my god, mr Argulace with his 15% crit scope will sure as hell find an ma stupid enough to buff him with MoP so he ends up at... almost the same crit chance! And he has grid armor! And roots! And evac! And hots! And snares! And range!

See anything wrong with that picture?

MA's and melee professions have as much right to the scopes as anyone else, if only they had given the darned things some other name...

MA's are supposed to crit a whole lot more than every other profession. Besides that they have green evades, crap heals and no range that's it.

What you are trying to say is that you just want a certain classes unique attribute for yourself. Sure you can have it, just give me your hots, range, evac, aso then.

btw since you already post that you are of the opinion that
'it does more harm than good' overall for melee professions to use scopes, why even bother making them ranged weapons only?

Or are you such a nice and caring person that you just wish to protect all of us melee users from ourselves? As we will be dumb enough to gimp ourselves by using a scope that is obviously no good for us? Wow, aren't we lucky we got uncle Arg to protect us from making such a dumb mistake?

/sarcasm off

[______________Hayake]

Originally posted by Suzsu
Doing the above would be fair for all right?? no one profession or thing is nerfed and the damage is returned to 100% in pvp...unless you think MAs somehow should have a monopoly on crits.

Well to be honest I do think so yes.

I don't think ma's should be the only class that can crit, but if you want other classes to have anywhere near the crit chance an ma has then I think ma's have equal rights to getting calms, drains, nanobuffs, pets, reflects, tms, roots, gridding aso.

I'm sorry but critting a lot is an ma perk. They don't have a lot of other things besides that.

Ofcourse maybe that is what you mean that eventually all professions should have the same perks and skills, but just have a different name.

I for one would like to see some uniqueness in every class.

[_______FrostGigas/LS]

Originally posted by Cz
Init penalties removed, ranged init bonus of 200 or so, and a damage bonus, is one suggestion. AMS bonus would be cool, but I think we're not too happy about adding AMS to too many items.

WooT! /me can't wait for 14.8 -LS

[_______FrostGigas/LS]

As a fellow MA, I strongly agree with Hayake. Critting is what we do. It is our benefit, and right, just as much as TMS/RRFE is the benefit and right of a soldier. If FC even thinks of nerfing UVC, I can almost garuantee that every MA on RK 1/2/3 will quit. Which, would not be very lucrative for FC, since MA's are the most played proffession - LS

[________________Jinx]

CZ, please make a copy of Merynas post and hand it to the designers.

Or better yet, fire your designers and hire Meryna

[aiwass777]

Originally posted by Cz
Had a chat with a couple of the designers, and got more information. So here goes:

The reason for the nerf is twofold;
1. People simply crit too much against mobs. This is based on both observing players and testers, and internal experience.
2. It's very unbalancing in PvP to have a locked-supply scope which gives large benefits compared to the alternative.

One of our designers has been following the discussion and the suggestions closely, and is most inclined towards a damage bonus and removing the init penalties, and possibly adding a ranged init bonus.

Cz, where is the logic in this?

At least one person has pointed this out, but if the intent is to lower damage, lower or removing initiative penalties (or giving a bonus) and adding a bonus to damage is the wrong way to go.

How many things have been removed from the hands of players without the slightest regard to a player's investment of time of money? I can think of two things and NO effort to provide compensation was made.

Why the change of heart? Why add these bonuses if the the items overall effect on the game will remain unchanged? They will still be a limited supply scope that give large to huge advantages over the alternative.

Just remove the damned things. If you alter the toy you cuse the exact same effect as if you removed it entirely. You will lose customers one way or the other.

[____________Fenestra]

I have used a LOT of different scopes, ranging from the HUD-Upgrades, different versions of TS-VE, and LLTS QL100-200. I've tested and compared QL240 and QL250 TS-VE since they both adds the same crit, but differ slightly in init. I have a nice collection of different scopes, and they all serve different situations. This is the issue really. Different professions use different kinds of scopes, depending on their inits, and weapons of choise. For example, a martial artist (using fists or claws) hits a lot faster than an agent using a Yatamutchi X-3 rifle. The MA can easily use one of the old LLTS without loosing too much speed. The agent on the other hand, will be very slow using a QL200 LLTS with the X-3. Now, the new TS-VE actually have less - to init, more + to Aimed Shot, and more + to Range Inc. They'd be better on an agent, increasing his AS skill, as well as his range, and the X-3 would hit faster. The only sad thing, is the poor crit chance in comparision to the old LLTS. In conclusion, if you bring down the crit chance on the LLTS, there simply must be something new added to them, something that is of use for anyone in the game.

Changing the scopes will change how all the weapons in the game work. Now, I'd really like to know how this 'players are critting too often against mobs' was observed. It sounds like a really weak excuse for a change that obviously is about to come true. Obviously there isn't going to be more research on this (surprising?), so I'll just try and give some suggestions.

First of all, why the.... did you introduce this new kind of scope anyway? I understand that a scope that relies on perception is a nice design. I mean, the higher perception, the better you can aim, and the higher chance of scoring a crit. Now, the old scopes use trade-skills (WS/EE), but I really don't understand how that should increase your crit chance. Maybe you're good at tuning your aim using a screwdriver or something like that... and that'd be some WS skill required Beats me.

If you change the old LLTS, you have to think about about not making them just another improved version of the new TS-VE. If you remove some of the init on them, at the same time reducing the crit chance to the TS-VE level, then there is so little difference between them, the old LLTS will no longer be worth a penny compared to the market value of today. And the new scopes run higher in QL, currently up to QL250. If you make the old QL200 LLTS crit the same as on QL250 TS-VE, and remove some init, then they are still just another item you could simply delete from the game, and many people will be furious.

As was suggested earlier, something that adds attack rating, hence increases your dmg output, would be the first thing that comes to my mind. Add all off X.

Also, why not make the old scopes boost your agg/deff slider, so that when you go more aggro, you get hyper-aggro, like adding an extra 20% on the min and max on the slider. Much like a constant flurry-of-blows (depending on how you set the slider).

Adding skills to the scope sounds like a bad idea. In that case why don't you make it add to the special attacks, and not the main skills. That would really compensate the value for the crit nerf, since the buff-line for specials is pretty limited (compared to wranglers, masteries, etc). Add some evades and the scope will still be regarded as the best in game.

Make the -init a lot less than what it is on the TS-VE

This is how my new type of nerfed and improved ELLTS would look like:

Extreme Low Light Targetting Scope (QL200)
Aimed Shot 320
Fling Shot 20
Burst 20
Full auto 20
Bow Spc Att 20
Ranged Init -200
Physic Init -200
Melee Init -200
CriticalIncrease 8
RangeInc. Weapon 40
Add All Off 10
Evade-ClsC 10
Duck-Exp 10
Dodge-Rng 10

Damm if I was designer you'd never have to place any IP, just get my collection of items.
Seriously though, giving people IPR must be the worst thing you can ever do. In that case EVERYONE in the game should get 2 IPR for WS and EE. As a matter of fact, that would be a nice gesture, no matter how you make these scopes look in the end.

[Quamander]

I've got a sudgestion. Change the scopes as you see fit to try and make them as worth while as they are now ( almost impossible without over doing them) and AMS mod is a definate. Here is a very serious sudgestion. maybe something like:



Ql200 LLTS:

Requirements:
electrical eng 801
weapon smithing 651
Restriction: Cannot be Martial Artist

modify self aimed shot 400
modify self critical chance 8
modify self ranged init -200
modify self melee init -500
modify self physical init -675
modify self weapon range 45
modify self add all off 100
modify self run speed 150
modify self chemical damage modifier 30
modify self cold damage modifier 30
modify self energy damage modifier 30
modify self fire damage modifier 30
modify self melee damage modifier 30
modify self poison damage modifier 30
modify self projectile damage modifier 30
modify self radiation damage modifier 30
modify self Fling Shot 20
modify self Burst 20
modify self Full auto 20
modify self Bow Spc Att 20


___________________________________________

First the mods:

Run Speed: It is in essence a vision enhancer, could you not also navigate through terrian better?

Damage Buffs: Not a definate reason it should have one.=] But i see no reason or argument agianst it having it. And it needs a little extra dont it?

AMS: This is the only reason the item MIGHT stay as valueble as it is now. I see no reason why it can't modify offensive skills since that is what its suppose to do.

Melee init Decrease - A scope not being specifically for melee classes, it should affect them more then ranged classes. Yet only being -100 init or so compared to the VE, it might be worth it for the AMS mod + Damage mod(dmg mod - lol) + run speed

Phys init decrease:
This being specifically not for hand to hand combat classes they should get decreased most of all. An MA skill user with -500 inits is not at all slow. Max your inits and have around 600 as a non MA class, and this may still be a vaible option for Engies ect. who want the +100 AMS mod.

Aimed Shot: Was in the original version and should stay in this one plus maybe get a bit off a buff. I really don't need to explain this one do I?

Ranged init decrease: The decrease as I've set it is about 250 lower then the VE 8%. This makes it to where the scope is not far outbalancing and the better you aim the slower you shoot right?=] Plus it plays a major role in preserving its value.

Special attack bonuses: I see no reason a scope could not improve these skils. Plus agian it helps to increase it's value.

-------------------
Now the Requirements:

Mech/EE: Stay the same as before I see no reason they need to be changed, to use the scope you should have to suffer a bit. IE alot of IP. =]

MA restriction: 'Heres the real controversial subject.(other then the obvouse nerf lol) This is the best possible solution I see. MAs now can get to about 50% crit chance with a Goc or 2. Nerfing this scope will give more balance in pvp. (I see no reason at all we should not crit 10x more in pvm tho, freakin 10 hours to lvl) This will allow Ranged weapon users to get a maximum of 8%+7%(mop)+4%(tts) = 19% crit chance. On the other hand MAs are still able to hold the highest position with crits at 24%+4% = 28%, a significant difference in my opinion, since atm a ranged weapon user can get 7+15+4 = 26% and an ma can get 24+4+15 = 43% crit chance. (this does not included inherant chance+Goc and other special hard to get items)
so basically what we are left with is MAs being able to get 9% more possible crit chance then any other class, it is a difference, and does make a large difference. Heh everyone has sudgested JUST nerfing the phys/melee init to detour MAs from using it, but that would still leave MAs with 42% crit chance running around with a River 6. which really wouldn't affect them TOO much.
(I would however like to say MA's deserve another 2% tho to make a real.. real distinction, possibly add a new easy to get item into the game that adds +2% MA only, or make the MA inherant crit chance 7%?)

This restriction should also be transfered to the VE.

And also note, that not every ranged user will have an 8% llts for obously reasons, it will still only be a select few who obtain this item.


----------------
Along with this every character should get 4 IPR points. You could have the scope itself when right clicked give the the ipr and put a insane skill lock on it say 720000 hours. But that wouldent prevent people from borrowing friends scopes. So really you'll have to give everyone 4 points (2 for me/ws and 2 for say AssR/AS or Shotgun/AS. Since alot of classes based thier hole combat abilities on that 15% chance.

|||||||||Thats, in my opinion BALANCE, yet class destinction.||||||||||


Cz , what do you think?

[Resta]

Originally posted by Cz
Had a chat with a couple of the designers, and got more information. So here goes:

The reason for the nerf is twofold;
1. People simply crit too much against mobs. This is based on both observing players and testers, and internal experience.
2. It's very unbalancing in PvP to have a locked-supply scope which gives large benefits compared to the alternative.

Cz making item that imposible to attain overpowered is way to balance the game?

Did you consider making new weapons that are better with Vision Enchancer then curent weapons that used together with 15% LLTS? Weapons that will just replace "crit or die" weapons? All it takes just a little extra work but leave with succesfied coustomers and balanced game.

[_____________Omnitax]

FunCom have made up their mind about nerfin the llts, so they will nerf it for sure...

I would like to see the scope changed to something like this.

--LLTS QL200--
Change vision
CriticalIncrease 8%
RangedInc. weps 45
Offense. mod 100 (much more easy to hit a target with the scope)
All ranged weapon skills +25 (Same as above)
Ranged init -300 (Still need to aim with scope)
*Skip other inits, cause it shouldnt apply to any other form then ranged attacks.
Aimed shot 300
Add damage 20, on ranged attacks (due to better aim/hits with scope)

This scope i can live with

Dont think it should add anything to evades maybe something for the movement predictor instead :P

I know all meleers will complain about this scope, but hey u got flurry of blows etc. And some have insane critbuffs that need to be changed little to only affect weps with MA requirements. Find it a little silly when a MA can crit much better with a lets say Flashpoint then any soldier outthere...

[luxferro]

Originally posted by Cruentuz


I know all meleers will complain about this scope, but hey u got flurry of blows etc. And some have insane critbuffs that need to be changed little to only affect weps with MA requirements. Find it a little silly when a MA can crit much better with a lets say Flashpoint then any soldier outthere...

you better believe meleers will complain.. why, becuae flurry had long recharge till you can use it again.. and i believe they nerfed it a while back to make them less powerful.. while it may be fair for MA's, since they got their crit only buffs.. what about other classes like adventuers or enforcers.. adventurers were "supposed" to get their own flurry type of device.. but as far as i know, it was never introduced into any of the patches yet

why must people complain that a scope should be ranged only? Melee is far inferior to ranged.. we should get to keep the same benifits that you think ranged classes only deseve.. FoB is not a reason or subsitute for a scope

[________AnotherFixer]

It amazes me how shortsighted most of the players of this game really are.

You know what, yes, it sucks that you may have spent a ton of credits to acquire these scopes. On that point I do sympathize with you, but from that point on it stops.

All of you crying about this "nerf" must have no regard for game balance. And NO, this change alone will not balance PvP, but it will remove a certain unbalancing and difficult to control variable from combat mechanics that will allow FC to more appropriately judge and readjust PvP damage.

As such, why don't you just make the following adjustments to the old scopes.


QL 200 Extreme Low Light Targeting Scope

Requirements:

Character Account > 200 million credits
OR
Character Create Date <Patch 13.6

Restriction:

Player Does Not = Has a clue about game balance

Modifications:

Make Wearer Level = 200
Make PvP Title = "I'm uber. Everybody Love Me"
Make Player Goal = I've WON. I don't need to play this game anymore

[_______________lear1]

All i can say is that...A nerf is a nerf.It will never be as good.no matter what they do or what they say, it will NEVER be like the old one.Some times, when i see this new nerfing stuff, I ask my self "is FC trying to dig their own grave or what?".They know we dont like this stuff,they know that they will loose tons of players over this,but yet they still decide to f**k up the game?

I started playing this game b/c i like how it was.FC gets you into this game, you find out about abunch or cool uber stuff that you want to get later on in lvling.So you stay,you pay FC,just so you will get that uber item some day.You get it , and boom,they rip it away.Now i say that just isn't right.Next thing you know they will be nerfing the highest lvl you can level up to at lvl 150(making all lvl 200s lvl 150) just so they have to get mochams to use their buffs

I bet the next prof. to get nerfed will be engies...Hmmm whats a dumb nerf they could do...one moment /me pretends to think like a 3 year old.

I cant believe everyone else is ok with this.I say they should keep them as they are.

Some one start a poll on "how many people you think will leave AO" once they are nerfed.

[Centurion3]

Glad to hear about the change of LLTS scopes, although I think they should have been done in the same time as when they where removed from shops and missions. Better late then never I suppose.