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Thread: More info on LLTS nerf

  1. #1

    Exclamation More info on LLTS nerf

    Had a chat with a couple of the designers, and got more information. So here goes:

    The reason for the nerf is twofold;
    1. People simply crit too much against mobs. This is based on both observing players and testers, and internal experience.
    2. It's very unbalancing in PvP to have a locked-supply scope which gives large benefits compared to the alternative.

    The nerf is not in 14.6! The item will be edited in 14.6 to include a "future change" warning in the description, and the change itself will most likely be in 14.8.

    One of our designers has been following the discussion and the suggestions closely, and is most inclined towards a damage bonus and removing the init penalties, and possibly adding a ranged init bonus.

    Looks like the nerf itself is pretty much set in stone. LLTS will get the same crit chance as a TS-VE, but added bonuses. Getting IPR points in the same patch is an open question, which I follow up on later.

    Let me get feedback on this, but please, understand that you make my job in bringing your thoughts to the designers a lot easier by staying constructive, backing up your statements, and not tying me to a pole and litting the firewood underneath me.

    That said, I apologize for not getting the time to have that chat with the designers yesterday.

  2. #2
    If the nerf is definitely happening, then I like the ideas they are considering for modifying the old scopes to compensate for the loss of crit.

    Thanks for getting back to us.

    --Tsk

  3. #3

    Re: More info on LLTS nerf

    Originally posted by Cz

    One of our designers has been following the discussion and the suggestions closely, and is most inclined towards a damage bonus and removing the init penalties, and possibly adding a ranged init bonus.
    Damage bonus would need to be substantial to be worthwhile.. not something along the lines of how damage boosting nanos are, because they're essentially useless.

    As for removing init penalties/adding ranged init bonus - this, I think, was by far the best suggestion.. I like it.

    Time to pull out the calculator again.

    --K

  4. #4

    Question

    I want to ask, what exactly FC wants to compensate?

    The money/items/time people have inested to get such a precious item or the loss of crit chance, because:

    if they just add other modifier (boni) to the old LLTS (I own a low one) and thereby make it comparable valuable in combat as before 'nothing' has changed. If FC thinks, the item is too powerful, than remove the power from it and don't replace it with another power. If this is for game balance, simply cut it down and reimburse the effort people had to get it (time = money; items = money; etc.).

    Every other action will lead to the same situation as before, just postponing the problem, but not solving it! (the availability, as you have stated)

    I would even go that far, to say, if you add some 'meaningless' (not imbalancing) modifiers to it, people will get more angry than they are right now.

    My 2 cents.

    So long,

    Max(imilian)
    100% curious

  5. #5

    Addon

    Some thoughts.

    I like the IPR idea very much:

    You have invested into two+ skills to use it and are now allowed to free the respective IP. But you have to make that 110% (hehe) exploit free (server side action come to my mind), because, I think I own two or three in total on my account - sharing with other chars is the mildest from of exploiting that I can imagine immediately.

    I would like to see some more compensation: trade for an equal crit percentaged new scopes, e.g.

    So long,

    Max(imilian)
    100% curious

  6. #6
    What about the fast, low regular dmg, crit dependant guns like the ithaca, will they get a boost to regular damage?

    As it is now, only the crits do any damage.
    Don Jinxster Juan - Solitus Trader - Omni RK1

    Nolan Necrogar Danczak - Opifex Martial Artist - Omni RK1

    // TODO: Put some funny line here

  7. #7
    The best way to remain SOME face with your customers here is to do the following.

    1) Grant everyone 2-5 IPR (some may have to change weapon altogether, needing more than 2 IPR to just drop the scope)
    2) Remove a large amount of the Init Penalties
    3) Add a Nice, substantial (100+ or more at QL200) buff to AMS.
    Don't be lonely anymore.

    Look at your post, now back at mine. Now back to your post, now back at mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through posts, reading the posts your posts could look like. Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, my reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post.

  8. #8
    Cz, do the designers even try to think?

    They change crit cuz we crit too much, and then they add damage so we still do more damage?

    That doesn't balance anything...

    You get afew 100s of reply to the other post, only very few want the change...and you still change it...you really want us to quit?


    Many characters are built around a high ql scope and a snakemaster, some adventurers (and others)used their ipr to reset melee and to pick up a snakemaster..

    They raised shotgun, flingshot, AS, range init, WS and EE, they did it only because they managed to get a high ql scope that you said you wouldn't change...now they have to change back...no shotguns are worth using anymore, so they need to reset 4 more skills(if they keep the current scope in, else 6 skills) so how many ipr point you think they have left? first reset all melee skills, then reset all range skills again...

    Only becuase Funcom keep lying to their customers, over and over.
    Azzazzimon
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    Account closed.

  9. #9
    It becomes more and more difficult to keep comments 'constructive,' so I hope this won't come accross as too flamey.

    I'm annoyed that a dev came to you yesterday and told you that LLTS were being nerfed in a way we had all been implied to would not happen. I'm annoyed that some dev sees the words "Critical Hit!" too many times can dictate that our characters have to be re-vamped completely. Thats a moot point now. The nerf is "set in (a very foolish) stone." That said, let me try to put something constructive on the table.

    I understand that you don't like unpredictability in PvP. Random victories by a streak of lucky critical hits, off-the-wall resisting debuffs leading to the underdog winning, things of that nature give you less control over PvP. You need to get over it. Special, "limited supply," items are what make one character better than another. Yes, better than another. If our characters are all identical you can break out a calculator and find out who wins a fight before its fought. When that happens you've made PvP an ultimately trivial matter. If you think people are critting too much... well.. you're wrong? The reason we're critting so much at high levels is because we're no longer doing full-difficulty missions anymore. We find that the XP take, over time, is much greater if we do a mission of vets and masters than if we did a QL 250 mission of Aces. If you want us to crit less the solution is not to make us all a bunch of gimps. The solution is to make it viable for us to so QL 200+ missions (viable in that it doesn't take 5 minutes to take down each mob).

    There you have it. I hope you'll do more than just pass it off as a flame.

    -Nisa
    Probably Untitled "Tantrum"
    Proud Member of Whatever

  10. #10
    Removed the Init penalties does sound like a good job, however and I think most people miss this is the QL200 VE are what 6% or so crits, so effectively we are losing 9% crit, that is an awful lot to make up with other bonuses.

    Would also recommend make the skill reqs on equipping it 1/2 of what they are now. Reason: takes 2 skills, cant be buffed even close to what VEs can. Afraid of lower lvl players being too powerful? Put lvl caps on them as well.

    Keep up the reports Cz, interested if the LLTS i have are useless or whats up with them.
    Old Isgrimnur Timer - Ranger
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    "Have you ever wondered, when you check loot and see NODROP, if it is not supposed to be dropped, how come the mob dropped it? And if the mob can drop it, why can't I?"

  11. #11
    I can't see how this will help in balancing the game. Making one item worse will make another one overpowered, and thus it would be counter productive to make a change to the first one, because you'd just create a new problem. At present there aren't many LLTS out there, and that's why the "problem", although I don't see it as one, isn't that big. Lowering the crit chance of the LLTS will of course make ppl scream and shout about the MA self only critline of nanos. I therfore sincerly hope that this change isn't set in stone.

    I am not sure I am on topic here, because I am not very constructive, but rather critizising in my comments. But wouldn't lowering the crit chance in general, no matter what you had equiped be a better idea? The ppl with old scopes would still have a greater chance of critting, but you would get rid of the problem with people "simply critting to much against mobs", and you would lessen the factor by which it unbalances PvP. I think there are other issues with PvP that are more unbalancing, but I won't take that up here.

    Jayhawk

  12. #12

    Re: More info on LLTS nerf

    Originally posted by Cz
    1. People simply crit too much against mobs. This is based on both observing players and testers, and internal experience.
    So if I get you correctly here... it's the number of crits they want to limit, not the damage itself?

  13. #13
    A very good point about the compensation, Max. I honestly doubt the other changes will make up for the crit loss completely.

    Init penalties removed, ranged init bonus of 200 or so, and a damage bonus, is one suggestion. AMS bonus would be cool, but I think we're not too happy about adding AMS to too many items.

    Other things that could be added, that doesn't break completely with being a combat item, but still doesn't make it too unbalancing?

    Just throwing out a suggestion and a question. Don't bite, please.

  14. #14
    Thank you for the update.

    Are they planning to make these drop again?
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  15. #15
    Oh, and please don't remove the visual effect entirely as suggested by others. Having it optional would be good, but removing it entirely would make the game unplayable for me at night (yes, even with night vision). Not sure why I have problems here, but I need the LLTS + night vision to see anything.
    Kennan - President, Arcane Legacy
    Asmoran - Retired (Former President, Synergy Factor)

  16. #16
    All 1sec/1sec weapons have ****s for normal damage and only thing that makes them viable are these scopes. Removing from the scopes tnits will not make these weapons viable as they are already capped. That will only help the slow hard hitting ones.

    River Series, Ithaca, Raids and OT-Windchaser are some of the guns getting shafted by this. Feel free to make a list of the viable shotguns available and try them in pvp. lol
    "Should start a combined raid/NW bot, where people get points if they help take down a clan base. Should be most effective." - Said by Waikase 14th of May 2003 in sarcasm to the appearance of the first raidbots on Rk1.

  17. #17
    What is Funcom's stance on giving all players additional IPR points to use in case they decide to reclaim IP in EE/WS?

    Or, go the more complicated route and offer a 1-time IPR for both skills and only those skills to all players, instead of giving them IPR points to use freely?

    Or give all players additional IPR points to use freely in case they wish to now change weapons?

    It's a big change. Will Funcom be willing to work with us and help us un-gimp our characters after the nerf?

    --Tsk

  18. #18
    Originally posted by Cz
    Other things that could be added, that doesn't break completely with being a combat item, but still doesn't make it too unbalancing?
    If we go RP on it, then would a perception bonus fit quite well... but I don't think we actually need more of that.
    If one gets free hands (aka not existing features in the game) would be to be immune to NT/Eng blinds. (Since its a LowLight.....)

  19. #19
    Originally posted by Cz
    I honestly doubt the other changes will make up for the crit loss completely.
    And thats just it. We all went to great lengths to get our ELLTS. Well perhaps not all of us, but most of us at least. And now all that has been for nothing. What we worked for us gone, and will be replaced by something not-so-good. We can make suggestions until your eyes are tired of reading them, but the fact is, the scopes are getting nerfed. They're taking a step down in usefulness.
    Probably Untitled "Tantrum"
    Proud Member of Whatever

  20. #20
    Dhurdahl, I would think that is correct, yes.

    aaronb, I doubt they will drop again.

    Liltechie, won't you be able to go with lower agg-def and still attack at 1sec/1sec then? That gives better defensive skills at least.

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