Pistol mastery

[Chrys]

Yes, because traders with a capped AS, nanobot guard and GTH/HHAB to keep their nanopool full, and the ability to cut endgame sold/enf AR almost in half need to be able to twink evades to the point of not being perkable to an undrained sold/enf.

Or enfs with pretty much the best alpha in the game, huge healing and damage absorption, among the best AR out of everyone, and insane NR, need to be unperkable.

Or keepers, who are already unperkable to 85% of the game's good tl7 PvPers and have good PvP damage and healperks.

Or MPs, who only need to right click a Zset to "twink evades"... you're saying a Tigress MP with 5 blockers, a capped AS and healpet/attack pet needs to be unperkable to soldiers and enfs without Zset equipped?

lol. Reality check for Poor lil I-get-alpha'd-for-20k-HP-through-PNS-by-a-ZOMG-MP:

1) AS has already been nerfed and more is incoming. I can't even cap AS reliably in PVM on tiigs anymore, as MP.
2) Traders have nanobot guard?
3) MPs either have SoZ or Tigress, not both. This is like the whines about Agents having TMS UBT AS CH CS and GSFHOT all at once right? Rest of the toolset is dated to about 2004, it's well and good to list out all the things about the toolsets but if you can't actually see how well they work in practice, it's meaningless.
4) Keepers have good PVP damage? Lawl?
5) I'm quitting AO for good when acc runs out next week

You're saying all those profs should be able to have 3.8k static def?

No. I'm saying they shouldn't be perkable to gimp sold with 2.7k AR which they would be if they had 80% check perks.

[Racatti]

2) Traders have nanobot guard?

Only for the past 2 years or so.

[Questra]

1) AS has already been nerfed and more is incoming. I can't even cap AS reliably in PVM on tiigs anymore, as MP.

Yes I saw your post and as I said there, I suspect that your perceptions and memories of what ASes you used to do may not be accurate. While FC could have done something to AS in secret, you can't base a point on what hasn't been proven.

But even if they did, I think we need to wait and see what the "AS nerf" turns out to be, since there could be an AS backstab with a low def check that pretty much turns the "nerf" into no nerf at all. Either way, you can't say that a trader should have better relative evades because of the AS nerf when noone knows for sure what the AS nerf will really be like.

You're really getting ahead of yourself there.

2) Traders have nanobot guard?

Yes, and they also have some very nice tools to keep their nanopool full for awhile.

3) MPs either have SoZ or Tigress, not both. Rest of the toolset is dated to about 2004

When an MP is no longer able to swap between them in duels you can make that statement with absolute truthfulness. As for the "2004 toolset" that's just ridiculous.

2007 to present:

New mezz pet which is very effective relative to Tumult http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=269516
Improved nuke/mild debuff line http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=270355
Improved pet AR http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267598
New easy-landing NSD http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267283
A twinking wet dream http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=273379
Half a dozen new pet buffs with decent durations that increase the damage, NR, AAD, and HD of MP pets
-50% Healing efficiency toolset http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267269
- 50% nano damage http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267271
And some serious upgrades to both -damage lines for PvM http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=227147
And lets not forget, near Root/Snare immunity, 5 blockers, and a chunk of AAD http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267281

5) I'm quitting AO for good when acc runs out next week

Well good luck in RK4 then.

No. I'm saying they shouldn't be perkable to gimp sold with 2.7k AR which they would be if they had 80% check perks.

You should realise that a perk checking 80% dodge does nothing to reduce the way AAD factors into the check, so a gimp sold with 2.7k AR wouldn't be perking any prof you mentioned which has twinked evades. The reason is because these days most profs have larger amounts of AAD relative to Dodge than they used to, and obviously AAD isn't affected by the 80% check at all.

[Chrys]

Yes I saw your post and as I said there, I suspect that your perceptions and memories of what ASes you used to do may not be accurate. While FC could have done something to AS in secret, you can't base a point on what hasn't been proven.

But even if they did, I think we need to wait and see what the "AS nerf" turns out to be, since there could be an AS backstab with a low def check that pretty much turns the "nerf" into no nerf at all. Either way, you can't say that a trader should have better relative evades because of the AS nerf when noone knows for sure what the AS nerf will really be like.

You're really getting ahead of yourself there.

I used to cap AS about 80% in PVM before, on Inferno mobs. It's proven. Just because you don't know jack about MP AS doesn't mean we didn't test these things.

When an MP is no longer able to swap between them in duels you can make that statement with absolute truthfulness.

Swap cannot be done in recharge (which if you knew the MP prof well, is our bane), nor can you cast. So if you don't know how to take advantage of an MP during a SoZ/Tigress swap, you're an idiot. Secondly, we don't have the IP to even get SoZ and Tigress abilities maxed if we have such a horrendous spread in 2 very dark blue weapon skills, unlike *cough*soldiers*cough*. Swap = SS recharge over, and if you haven't cleared the blockers in the 30 seconds it took to finish recharge, you are a /failsoldier as we know from your experience getting alpha'd for 20k HP against a MP (lalalawl).

As for the "2004 toolset" that's just ridiculous.

I meant the 'toolset' (i.e. pets) that you were talking about in the sentence I was replying to: "you're saying a Tigress MP with 5 blockers, a capped AS and healpet/attack pet needs to be unperkable to soldiers and enfs without Zset equipped?")

Tigress + Zset + Blockers + capped AS + healpet roflololmao You forgot reflects and NSD and...

Oh wait:

2007 to present:

New mezz pet which is very effective relative to Tumult http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=269516
Improved nuke/mild debuff line http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=270355
Improved pet AR http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267598
New easy-landing NSD http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267283
A twinking wet dream http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=273379
Half a dozen new pet buffs with decent durations that increase the damage, NR, AAD, and HD of MP pets
-50% Healing efficiency toolset http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267269
- 50% nano damage http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267271
And some serious upgrades to both -damage lines for PvM http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=227147
And lets not forget, near Root/Snare immunity, 5 blockers, and a chunk of AAD http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267281

I like how you get carried away with yourself not knowing the faintest clue about the MP toolset. All of the nanos are fairly mutually exclusive with SS (AAD + BLOCKARZ ) or NSD. It's not like we have all running at the same time like a soldier with AMS+healdelta+first aid perks+FA+Burst+AS+Dimach+Tracer+RI+OMHH oh wait, I'm not an idiot like you, I'm well aware soldiers have some limitations too and don't need to give a laundry list of their toolset to recognise that they can't do everything at once, in fact all their nanos are out the window once they AMS, just like MPs once they get their blockers up. Which is what your original claim was all about.

You should realise that a perk checking 80% dodge does nothing to reduce the way AAD factors into the check, so a gimp sold with 2.7k AR wouldn't be perking any prof you mentioned which has twinked evades. The reason is because these days most profs have larger amounts of AAD relative to Dodge than they used to, and obviously AAD isn't affected by the 80% check at all.

So gimp sold with 2.9k AR, or 3k AR (you do accept those AR values = gimp sold that a 220 unbuffed can practically reach right?). They should be forced to make some effort to perk people, hence no to 80% check, that's the point.

[Questra]

What a load of drivel, Chrys. If you want to make a point, you're gonna need to get beyond the "roflawl" and sms/internet meme speak because it makes you look like a giggling schoolgirl.

Secondly, you need to stop digging yourself into the hole of trying to complain about how crap your professional supposedly is while at the same time claiming that I'm a bad player. Anyone on RK1 who's seen me PvP enough on any one of my half dozen endgame/endtwinked toons knows otherwise and you'll just be written off as a flamer or a troll.

I figured out that you must remember me from a thread where MPs were complaining about not having enough damage, and I showed in that thread how an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds, and I vaguely recall someone (apparently you) spending about 5 thousand words trying to say that MPs can't, in fact, do any damage and that I only took that damage because, you claimed, I'm not a good player. That you've held a grudge against me all that time (what is it, 2 years now?) while I completely forgot who the hell you even are is pretty worrying.

As for pistol soldiers, they shouldn't be viable in PvP, but not because of whiners like you who want their non-evade or marginal evade prof to be unperkable. A soldier with Pistol Mastery is going to be able to perk LESS people than a soldier with SMG Mastery, whose best DD perks check 90% dodge rather than 80%. A soldier with Pistol Mastery is going to have the same AR with PM perks that they have with AR perks. Why? Becuase even with the + Pistol skill from the PM perkline, soldiers have a lot less pistol skill potential than AR or SMG. And that's for good reason, because soldiers shouldn't be a pistol prof.

Soldier having PM wouldn't make them able to perk previously unperkable people. But here is what *would* happen which I don't think is fair. Soldiers would max RE, SMG, Pistol, FA, and AS, and use an Envy and ABC. They'd have an utterly horrible AS but a decent FA and Burst, and would be able to execute PM perks because of the pistol skill attached to the ABC, so their Alpha would include Burst/FA and those enormous PM DD perks, as well as SMG Mastery perks and CoLA perks. PU perks wouldn't be very effective as soldiers already have crappy AR with them and SMG solds have 100 less AR with PU perks since they don't use CoHA but they'd still land on agents and keepers without towers. After the AS nerf wise soldiers would just wield the Envy and swap in the ABC just when PM perks were up and deequip it afterwards.

It's the damage that's the real issue with PM, not the AR or the 80% perks. If you IPR your soldier and max pistol skill and add on 750-800 AAO you'll see that it's well behind assault rifle or SMG AR. Far enough behind to eliminate the advantage of having 80% dodge checks on PM perks.

[Chrys]

an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

I think you should reroll.

[Gunfytr]

I think you should reroll.

Ur acct expired yet?

[Chrys]

Ur acct expired yet?

Soon (tm)

[Questra]

Yeah, I think we're done here.

No to Pistol soldiers, EC3 soldiers, and troll MPs.

[Chrys]

Yeah, I think we're done here.

No to Pistol soldiers, EC3 soldiers, and troll MPs.

I'm a dshark* solja!

*Running not walking

[Klod8999]

MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

True story. I shot Questra over optical cable, from RK2 server.

[Kurvball]

Yes, because traders with a capped AS, nanobot guard and GTH/HHAB to keep their nanopool full, and the ability to cut endgame sold/enf AR almost in half need to be able to twink evades to the point of not being perkable to an undrained sold/enf.

Or enfs with pretty much the best alpha in the game, huge healing and damage absorption, among the best AR out of everyone, and insane NR, need to be unperkable.

Or keepers, who are already unperkable to 85% of the game's good tl7 PvPers and have good PvP damage and healperks.

Or MPs, who only need to right click a Zset to "twink evades"... you're saying a Tigress MP with 5 blockers, a capped AS and healpet/attack pet needs to be unperkable to soldiers and enfs without Zset equipped?

You're saying all those profs should be able to have 3.8k static def?

I don't want soldiers to have PM perks, not just because I hate the idea of the best soldier PvP option being non-assault rifle, but because I don't think it would be fair. I don't want easymode PvP, I want fun PvP.

But you keep fighting your MP corner until every MP is unperkable with a Tigress equipped and everyone in BS not only ignores the lame ninja capping shield MPs because they can't touch them, but the capped AS Tigress MPs too.

Wow are you really complaining about keeepers? I think its time to start skipping your posts.

[Questra]

Wow are you really complaining about keeepers? I think its time to start skipping your posts.

Not at all, but I would be complaining about them if they had 3.8 static def, which is not the case now

[thecheeseman]

YES to pistol soldiers

with pistol master perk the jobe pistol can od smg
since soldiers have AWESOME GREEN skills in pistol and LAME BLUE in smg its obvious we should be the sexy masters of pistols

btw nerf mps and keepers

[thecheeseman]

YES to pistol soldiers

with pistol master perk the jobe pistol can od smg
since soldiers have AWESOME GREEN skills in pistol and LAME BLUE in smg its obvious we should be the sexy masters of pistols

btw nerf mps and keepers

i completely agree
you are right

[Questra]

Hey, um, yeah. Cool post bro.

I'm... going to go and see how that other thread's doing now. Over there. Yeah.

[Carmo]

What a load of drivel, Chrys. If you want to make a point, you're gonna need to get beyond the "roflawl" and sms/internet meme speak because it makes you look like a giggling schoolgirl.

Secondly, you need to stop digging yourself into the hole of trying to complain about how crap your professional supposedly is while at the same time claiming that I'm a bad player. Anyone on RK1 who's seen me PvP enough on any one of my half dozen endgame/endtwinked toons knows otherwise and you'll just be written off as a flamer or a troll.

I figured out that you must remember me from a thread where MPs were complaining about not having enough damage, and I showed in that thread how an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds, and I vaguely recall someone (apparently you) spending about 5 thousand words trying to say that MPs can't, in fact, do any damage and that I only took that damage because, you claimed, I'm not a good player. That you've held a grudge against me all that time (what is it, 2 years now?) while I completely forgot who the hell you even are is pretty worrying.

As for pistol soldiers, they shouldn't be viable in PvP, but not because of whiners like you who want their non-evade or marginal evade prof to be unperkable. A soldier with Pistol Mastery is going to be able to perk LESS people than a soldier with SMG Mastery, whose best DD perks check 90% dodge rather than 80%. A soldier with Pistol Mastery is going to have the same AR with PM perks that they have with AR perks. Why? Becuase even with the + Pistol skill from the PM perkline, soldiers have a lot less pistol skill potential than AR or SMG. And that's for good reason, because soldiers shouldn't be a pistol prof.

Soldier having PM wouldn't make them able to perk previously unperkable people. But here is what *would* happen which I don't think is fair. Soldiers would max RE, SMG, Pistol, FA, and AS, and use an Envy and ABC. They'd have an utterly horrible AS but a decent FA and Burst, and would be able to execute PM perks because of the pistol skill attached to the ABC, so their Alpha would include Burst/FA and those enormous PM DD perks, as well as SMG Mastery perks and CoLA perks. PU perks wouldn't be very effective as soldiers already have crappy AR with them and SMG solds have 100 less AR with PU perks since they don't use CoHA but they'd still land on agents and keepers without towers. After the AS nerf wise soldiers would just wield the Envy and swap in the ABC just when PM perks were up and deequip it afterwards.

It's the damage that's the real issue with PM, not the AR or the 80% perks. If you IPR your soldier and max pistol skill and add on 750-800 AAO you'll see that it's well behind assault rifle or SMG AR. Far enough behind to eliminate the advantage of having 80% dodge checks on PM perks.

Have you ever shoot with a pistol in reality? I think nomaly there is no need to say that it is easyer to hit something with an automatic mashine gun then with a singel firing handgun.
So it must be much easyer to dodge a singel pistol shoot/perk then a few bullet´sor perks from a SMG or Assrifle and if a wandering bullet hit the aim the effect or the damage based on AR (Skill and AAO) should be the same then from other weapons.

There muste be any case why to use a ASSrifle SMG or Pistol.
I think it would be not ok if the pistol dose the same dmg like an assrifle.

That is not logical!!!

[Valour]

just tried a pistol soldier at 150, seems pretty weppy if you ask me, yeah the perk damage hit more than AR damage - something wrong there from a "lighter" wep, did worse dd than a 175 shark, not even mentioning spb,

we get the "pistol mastery" buff, so i cant see the logic in not having pistol mastery perk line.

and before anyone trololol's me for saying pistol should OD AR soldier in S10, i was using a 200 peregrine and JPGPP, think i was a couple of points off it being OE, so 1 drain pvp wise makes it useless, thats if it can hit with 1308 AR as apposed to 1.6+ with Assault rifle, which often misses

i dont see how it would make it an OP line, at this level range, all iv seen is focus on tl7 pvp atm, trying to bring a diffrent level range to the table

hopefully dev's pull there finger out and give us something we can use sept a 40sec tms10 which is practically useless, may as well stick a full set of Ljotur on and CaC and go back to being ac/hp build like froob soldiers

[Questra]

Apparently Ljotur no longer works with CAC (or grid armour) anymore.

Now that things have changed for us in a huge way, it would be nice to have full access to every primary ranged weapon perkline and to be able to pick and chose between at least two (providing we dedicate the IP to two different skills) for different situations.

[Contra]

Admit it, Questra, you just want access to the PM perkline just so you can get more +crit armor/items on and still perk the out of people. Don't try and feed us that whole "we should have access to it cause it's THERE and the story says....and my mother bought me a pistol when I was little and I <3 it!"cause it's not working.
Advies using that perline is already a HUGE mistake. Allowing soldiers(one of the most potent pvp professions in AO) access to that line will only make things more ridiculous.