Remove "Profession Only" requirements from Weapons

[Drabin]

I know many will agree with me when I say remove all of the profession reqs on weapons and even from some armor items.

First of all, from a reality standpoint anyone can pick up and use a weapon if they have the basic skills and know how to do so. This pertains to most weapons - pistols, rifles, assault rifles, mining devices, and even explosives.

I was a former 12B10 MOS Combat Engineer in the U.S. Army and also am Airbone, Air-Assault, and Urban Warfare qualified. I know how to use most standard pistols, most assualt weapons, and can difuse and arm at least 200 anti-personnel and anti-tank mines. All of this took a total of 11 weeks to learn and another year or two to practice the ins and outs of handling them. Was it hard to do this? Not really. The hardest thing to learn was gauging temperature readings on explosive devices and making sure they didn't blow up in your hand.

In relation to gaming, there are many simplified and overrated weapons that are "profession" only which really irritate me. First of all there are bladed weapons like sol fire executioners. This is a sword and anyone with the skill to use that type of sword can use it.

Did I have the skill to use my first M16A2 Assault Rifle? Hell NO. But, it was quite amazing when I scored 37 out of 40 shots on the range my first time using one.

The game takes a finer example of realistic bias to decide on who or what can use a particular weapon. However, most of the concepts behind this are so unrealistic that they make me want to slap the coders upside the head for even thinking of putting a skill cap on a weapon.

A sword is a bladed instrument and realistically can be used by anyone although being very good with it is one thing. But, not being able to hold it because you don't have the skill to hold it is outright dumb. Having the skill to use the exact same type of weapon with precision and agility and being told, "Sorry, you cannot equip this weapon because it says you are not such and such profession" is borderline idiocy.

The same thing can be applied to ranged weapons like pistols and assault rifles. So many of these weapons are very easy to understand and if you have used several with any minimal amount of time it doesn't take a genious to use another one of a similar type but different model.

The only thing deterring a person from using a weapon accurately are one, being able to load the weapon with efficiency and precision - two, being able to callibrate and zero in the weapon for accuracy and aiming, and three, understanding the weapon itself. All of this is easy to do. Callibrating one ranged weapon from another ranged weapon does not take 'brains" - it just takes time. Loading a weapon takes practice. Firing a weapon takes practice. Hell, if my grandma needed to fire a shotgun (which she never has in her life) I could say here take this and do this and she'd be able to fire it (maybe not with complete accuracy) but she'd do better than most.

Profession, level reqs, and even breed reqs like the ones used on beams (because apparently atrox are so stupid they would only be the ones to use beams) is ludicrous. Why is this so? I know an enforcer who uses the beam at level 200 and has Intelligence at 400 which happens to be 40 times the intelligence of a level 1 nanomage profession.

Some things cannot be explained and really isn't rationalized by the coders in any detail at all. Maybe I'm going a bit overboard on this, maybe not. The fact remains though, it seems to me that Funcom is trying to say that most of our in-game personas are idiots and lack the ability to reason.

[aaronb]

I agree completely. I really think of AO as a skill based game. Profession and level requirements don't fit, in my opinion.

Along these lines, I also don't think there should be requirements for equipping. Skill should determine your to-hit and damage modifiers, not whether you can equip the thing.

[eyedee]

Would your grandma be able to swing a big steel beam to?

[Intenseheat]

This is done to fit the stereotypes of the professions. You are an engineer, true, but you are in the armed forces. If you walk into Sony or something and give one of the cube gerbil engineers over there that faints at the sight of blood an assault rifle and say "shoot that target" he will think you are insane. He would probably not even hold the gun correctly. Ta-da.

It is also done to balance stuff. Certain professions are supposed to do damage in certain ranges, to prevent the "tank mage" type character that no game wants. I think the profession limits are quite feasible.

[Bionitrous]

Yes, these stupid requirements have to go. Or at least never ever show up again. Let's look at it this way, Kinkstaah will eventually be able to use The Edge of Tarasque but not some stupid-ass Qlvl1 Adventurer Katana. That is the kind of thing that makes intelligent people almost guilty they play the game.

A few other points:

- The Support Beam is obviously Atrox-only for the exact reason alluded to above. Even if Grandma Drabin could benchpress 500 lbs, if she didn't weigh 850 lbs, she'd tip over trying to hold it extended. But rather than 'Atrox-only' it still would have been nicer to see 'Body Mass > 250kg'

The reason you see the hated 'Profession-X' restrictions is because FunCom is unwilling to do the real work. Case in point is the Adventurer. They want to give the dogs a bone and figger some decent Pistols would be nice for a profession that has an affinity for Pistols. But, they are too lazy to want to consider the ramifications of the Engineer that has the +120 Pistol buff or the fact that the Engineer buff can be executed in another person's NCU. Horror of horrors if Engineers have their crappy 'bots AND Pistols. It makes little game designer scared and thus the love they want to spew is confined in the only way they can think of to the Adventurer with the biggest copout possible.

So, how do we get into this situation in the first place? First and foremost, they made quality level of item have a much greater effect on damage than skill ... by far. The half-assed OE Nerf was an attempt to address this that only ended up eliminating 3/4th's of the viable ways to play the various professions. The *miss, miss, miss* is their second attempt to address this.

They should have taken all the skills and balanced them one against the other and provided each profession with an equal amout of 'juice' from amongst all the skills. Thus if Pistol sucked, then we would obviously see that pistol users would be hurting and they could put some nice pistols in the game to help out the Pistol-users.

I honestly think FunCom made a mistake by stating they'll never mess with skillcosts again. Now that they have the ability to offer IP-reset, they could have taken the opportunity to buff the Adv. by allowing them to have higher ultimate skill levels and introducing weapons that while not profession-restricted could only be equipped at the very best quality levels by those with the very best skills. An example would be the top-level Blood Bat that has the assinine Enforcer-only tag (it's a friggen stick for crying out loud) even though no other profession in the game could even put a qlvl200 version on. A redundant requirement that makes absolutely ZERO sense.

I think it all comes down to lazyness on FunCom's part. It makes life easier for them when they want to throw a profession/breed/faction/sex a bone.

[Thyrra]

the beam being limited by strength would be more reasonable than being limited by breed.

remove prof limits on weapons.

allow me to use a melee and ranged weapon at the same time again.

balance equipment by making the highest ql versions of items use skills to such a degree that only a specific prof(s) would be able to use them.

---
replace that last O with a P drabin.

[Bionitrous]

God forbid you have a Sword in one hand and a Pistol in the other assuming you raise the appropriate skills. God forbid this horrible occurance might happen.

Long as you got the appropriate Multi-XXX skill requirement for whatever is in your off hand (and the requisite skills for the weapon of course).

[Drabin]

And another thing...

You can't use a premium top of the line nova flow at 160th level but you sure can equip and use an irreparable, beat up, rusty, nova flow because its more of an inadequate weapon.

Which do you think would be easier to use, the beat up crappy shot gun or the mint condition, fully functional one?

[Angelhunter]

been wondering also, i am a soldier, my main weapon is an assault rifle, however say i had a pistol holstered, fully loaded... in the Heat of Battle *oh Crap* out of ammo on the Assault rifle, taking heavy fire.... would love to be able to whip out that Pistol as a backup weapon! Now that would be some cool stuff right there, but *sigh* i am just wishfully thinking again



ooooo and how bout removing the **Body tatoos will not be done on females** restriction from body tatoos??? :P

[Whitesand]

noway! keep the "profession only" requirements on weapons! This is the only love which some classes have in this game. And no! I don't want to share my 2 gimped and useless soldier weapons with all other classes! They should put this requirements on high ql armor too (albrecht, heavy tank, battle suits, etc.) I never saw a wizard wearing a huge platemail armor in other roleplaying games - but well ao is something different.

[Mercatura]

The pistol thing is pretty lame considering how many classes get it cheap, though they're still only ok for the most part. Don't even get me started on the offhand crap, I own the best damn offhand pistol in the game and its still a piece of **** dualled.

The ranged/melee-only thing has got to go too, it'd be nice to see a soldier using SSC Byom and Tellus pistol, like the officers of old leading the charge with a sword & pistol. Or advent with Sol Fire and whatever.

Heh engys are lucky to cast EP at title6. Well, at least they get something (but not much) out of raising 2 crap nano skills, I get -200 RI if I raise my crap nano skill

Though a certain clan only piece of friggin armor is in dire need of being soldier only.

Theres no wizards in AO. Nano TECHNOLOGY

[Devis]

My only comment to that is simple
Nano's have professions requirements why shouldn't items.

if they didn't we would all be grid armored healing nova flow using maniacs
some professions rely on items more than nanos .. so what if there items or their prof only .. especially professions balanceing items like the SOL swords or the River Season XP's if they wheren't adv only I sure as hell would want to pick up a pair.

[Naraya]

Originally posted by Whitesand
I never saw a wizard wearing a huge platemail armor in other roleplaying games - but well ao is something different.

Yes...AO is something VERY different....

Calling AO a "skill-based" game would be a blatant lie. It could be said that the original intent was a skill-based game, but results come well short of that mark. While most everything in the game requires a certain skill level, you can only build those skills by leveling. How else do you get IP? The implementation of the skill system in AO is simply an in-depth breakdown of your typical leveling system in most level-based games.

The profession templates simply determine which skills are cheaper to raise and when they cap out, but only after you've leveled enough to acquire the IP to raise them. That should not determine whether or not one can use a weapon or armor. Skills should, plain and simple.

Level reqs on new nanos are the result of laziness. It would have been easy to give new nanos a SKILL req had they simply done the research on it, but it was way way easier to simply say "No one can use this nano until they are xxx level".

I blame Verant for this, as I think it was them who brainwashed FunCom into reworking AO into an EQ clone....

[Kuro]

Interesting thread. But the question I'd have is how do you make an item attractive for one profession, not attractive to use for other professions, and do this without penalizing the intended profession?

Case in point: the adventurer pistols. It should be child's play to make the pistols use Adventuring skill along with pistol. With the IP misers playing AO, that would make the pistol instantly less attractive for non-adventurers (see the discussion regarding shotties in the Trader Forum for what I mean about 'IP Misers'). But it would technically penalize the Adventurers that the pistols were intended for by forcing them to carry another skill in order to wield them. Worse still, a useless skill for the most part

And I do believe there should be items viable only for a specific profession. If I were to put it in an ill fitting real life analogy, I'm not a physical guy in real life. I'm a network admin/consultant (aka Geek). I can fire any caliber handgun with accuracy (I go to the range every weekend). But I do not have the upper body strength a more physical job would provide me naturally. So I avoid armbusters, like .45 and .44 caliber handguns, despite having the skill to fire them proficiently. Hey, I warned you it was an ill fitting analogy

[Drabin]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
Interesting thread. But the question I'd have is how do you make an item attractive for one profession, not attractive to use for other professions, and do this without penalizing the intended profession?

The weapons are already sorted out based off your skill categories per profession. Base cost to use an assault rifle per skill for an NT is huge compared to that of a soldier. Would an NT use an assault rifle that was soldier only or a pistol that was soldier only? That is solely up to the profession and the person playing him. Would they be better with them than a soldier? Nope. The reason for this is based off of AR vs. DS, and too many other factors to go into right at this moment.

The point of this thread is to allow other professions to use as many weapons as they choose to do so at their own cost and opinion or how they wish to role play the character. If NTs received an energy broom stick that fired off energy pulses and made cackling noises when they hit, I would not be the slightest upset for a soldier to wield that ever powerful broom stick.

Weapons and realism are lacking and the skill/IP system is extremely imbalanced right now. Adding level reqs and profession only marks to weapons gives a very lackluster feel to the game.

By the way - (note to whitesand) - Just because you feel unloved in your own profession doesn't make it realistic, game mechanically sound to keep a weapon with a "profession only req" added to it. IMHO it is just plain dumb.

(note to Devis) Nano programs are a completely different playfield my friend and have no merit in this discussion. If you think hard about how you access nano programs, what their fields are, you will probably come to the conclusion that they are the equivallent of obtaining a masters or greater degree in a particular field of study. Using a weapon is a lot more common and does not inherit the same vision.

[Thyrra]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
But the question I'd have is how do you make an item attractive for one profession, not attractive to use for other professions, and do this without penalizing the intended profession?

i say raise the available qls on items. if an nt can get into a q3000 novaflow, great for him. if the soldier next to him can get into a q5000 novaflow, the soldier won't mind the nt's gun. if the nt wants to use a q4500 novaflow, then he should be able to spend ip into doing so; the downside would be that other nts would be using q5000 nukes while the gun nt would be using much lower.

yes, this means no ip glut at the end so that everyone can max every useful skill and have ip left over to max thrown weapons in case fc puts some in the game some day.

[secondkenlon]

Yes! Someones been reading my posts! W00!


The levels on items/missions should go to 1.5 times the level avaliable to players in-game. (I'm assuming that Shadowlands will raise the level cap, personally.)

[Mercatura]

lol @ IP misers...nice try.

More IP, less damage, slower...makes you a miser for not using it?

Let ye who has no tradeskills cast the first stone.

BTW, if the gun's attack was 100% pistol and 20% adventuring, it wouldn't be a penalty. (well, then they put in OE so its not totally true) Slap some adventuring buffs in the game at the same time. The idea is to spend more IP to do more damage, or be more effective.

Shadowlands better not add more levels like they are now. The xp curve vs the mob xp curve (and power curve) is total bull****. Its a miracle they didn't totally nerf it in the last year so we would all be in their vision of 'maybe level 200 in 4 years'.

[Bionitrous]

I got not problem 'leveling' to get IP's. But, damnit, when I spend my IP's to gain a skill, I want to use any item that requires those skills.

The answer to how you make something attractive to the 'intended professions' is simple. There should be no 'intended professions' for any weapon. A new Pistol should be made attractive to Pistol users. End of story. If they want Adventurers to be better with Pistols then make the profession better with Pistols. They can do that now with IP reset if they see fit. They can also add Implants that require Adventuring, for example. Or put Perception requirements on certain Pistols. Nothing to stop someone from spending the IP's. But, if you are Adventurer, you can much more easily equip this weapon without gimping yourself.

Weapons above qlvl200 is a good start as well. The 'non-intended' profession might get into a qlvl200 version of the weapon, but those with the cheapest skills will be the only ones wielding the qlvl220 version.

One of the biggest attractions to this game for me (and I assume others) is that you could be a geek with a Bazooka or a Soldier with a whittling knife. Leave it up to the Skill system to determine how well you do. I'm sick of FunCom continually putting artificial restrictions on items and the resultant cookie-cutter populace.

[Oljalyn]

I so agree with Bionitrous and Drabin. Because of whiners and FC's inability to do some real work instead of short cuts, I don't think we'll ever see your suggestions

This cookie-cutter route that FC is taking, makes me really sad since I always liked AO for giving the freedom to make your chars the way you want. This is getting more and more difficult every day.

Once I wrote in a discussion here on the forums (long ago) that I would like to make a dual wield pistol fixer one day. Just because it looks cool. And I _can_ do this, but it will totally gimp the fixer completely. I understand the strength of a fixer is in a fat SMG, and should therefore be better than a pistol fixer, but I just wish it could be at least a viable choice both for pvp and pvm. I also want more weapons. A _lot_ more weapons, all of them being viable too. Not another QL 200 pistol with 1-113 (199) dmg.

So.. I hope FC will read this thread and take notice.