MP profession imbalance?

[Corily]

So, after running around with a tigress for years I tried to search for something that could replace my bow with something more interesting. It wasn't far I had to seek since SoZ was lying there in my nanomenu, asking me to test it out. Switching from an AS/defence setup towards a nanoskills/defence setup, I was so amazed by the new capacities that it made me angry.

To sum up a few things where the difference lies.

Tigress:

- AS, capping easily, garanteed hit.
- Low defence, perkable to any melee profession and quite a load of ranged professions.
- Low nanoskills, 2.2-2.3k on average, low chances of landing debuffs.
- high dependancy of SS, long recharche times.
- You can't stop people running away, CoC is close to worthless.
- Once 2 different professions appear, it is very hard to keep things under control without the necessity of running away/ kiting(wich is stupid, since we're a pet class).
- Ability to proc on occasions.

SoZ:

- Big nanoskills, 2.6k on average, most debuffs land on first try.
- Ability to use these debuffs without the necessity of castind dd debuffs/SS.
- COC/ regular NSD belong back to the frequent toolset.
- Pet gained an additional 300 AAO
- Pet gained an additional 12% healefficiency
- Permanent godmode, unperkable to anyone w/o MR.
- Useage of MiMQ, since it lands often it can be placed again where it should be.
- Ability to land perks more often due to higher AR/nanoskills.

Now the part where I got angry is that after I changed to SoZ, I felt like I did NOT trade in offense for defense. MiMQ does at least as much DD as my bow ever could, with the exception of NT's and enforcers. Yet, I have never been able to take down such enforcers that fast. In duels I'm doing really good, in BS even better. Unlike most always claimed, I kill at least 3 times as much wearing SoZ in one round, and I die only on occasions.

After comparing these two I just felt stupid for wearing my bow for so long. It just doesn't come near the abilities of a SoZ. Afaik Tigress does belong to the MP's nowadays, the reason why ask for some real balancing.

/ranting off

[Metafly7]

Heres something even funnier.. combine em :P

I use shield on the rainy hard days to cover my head and on a bright and sunny day i put my bow back on. SoZ wont let u do alot of damage. Thats why i still do use Bow. Plus having the ability to AS if u have to is nice. For instance when u have to tank for ur Inferno team. Delivers easy aggro altho yes ull need to invest some concealment.

And in pvp u have the option of being totaly safe from ur target behind ur shield untill hes at 40% or something like that at which point u can switch to ur bow and AS, Fling, Nuke and ur target should be dead

[Dancingrage]

Indeed, at this point most MPs scrape together enough IP to keep the SoZ handy even if they're not likely to use it, aka like Metafly. Early on in LE I realized it's possible to use, up to that point, pre-Esa/Titaniush every creation weapon while having the IP to keep Tigress going.

While yes, it's turtling, it's a powerful defensive tool that has uses just about everywhere. Small wonder lots of folks keep it near to hand. Most don't go to the extent you go to, that is focusing a setup around it, which is why they don't get as good results as you do.

[Racatti]

SoZ MP dies to good NT and trader annoyingly easy. I allways hunt SoZ-MPs on my trader just for the fun and giggles.

That, and having to constantly recast my pet or flee from fight just to save em is equally annoying.

[Ebag333]

Heres something even funnier.. combine em :P

The problem is that a true defensive setup is a completely different setup than what you'd wear with a Tigress.

While slapping SoZ on does give you a nice defensive boost, you're still perkable by many professions and burning through the extra defense isn't terribly difficult.

In comparison to a full def setup with SoZ you're easily talking about 250+ AAD, plus a slew of NR. Not to mention losing your nanoskills, which eliminates about half of the bonuses to using a nanoskill/AAD setup.

It's the difference between eliminating half the people you are perkable to (at least before the evade debuffs land) and not being perkable to anyone at all.

[Starrfyre]

I've always found that the defensive procs (+100 and +250) land much more often than people like to believe, whenever I'm in BS I always have at least one of them up. The duration is decent, and as a result I'm always hovering at at least 3k defense without towers.

Now I've always come to the conclusion that the average attack rating on most people (over all, excluding exceptions like enfos and soldiers where its ridiculously easy to get AR) is roughly around 2.9-3.2k. I'd probably put most melee profs and a couple others in this group, its also where the Rihwen ends up with his attack rating if you have Zset on and you're using the proper buffs/perks. So if you think about it, MPs are just barely able to stay ahead of decently setup profs, as well as some well setup ones. I've calculated that if I throw up SS, and both procs I have 3443 defense in evade, and dodge wont be too far behind. (without towers)

Now if I were to put on Zset I would lose 350 from procs and gain 660 from Zset, while yes that's great and I wouldn't be perkable to the very well set up professions, you become entirely pet and nano resist dependent. Now tbh I find nano resist hard as hell to predict and I dont know wtf you'd need to really be safe, and pets are simply not good enough in most cases to do the kind of damage you need, not to mention near useless against evade profs. And debuffs only go so far.

I guess what I'm saying is, at this moment MP's are quite over powered because:

1. We're a freaking support prof, and pets are almost like some kind of dot and hot you dont have to cast anymore instead of our main, or close to main weapons.
2. We actually have more than enough defense in most cases to piss off a lot of profs, use our toolset properly and we actually have a counter for every single instance. (working or not)
3. Not everyone has full combined armor and endgame setups, and it seems like a lot of people don't take this into account anymore.
4. 3 of our endgame weapons are simply nanos from quests. This makes a decent set up MP quick and easy to make and get started with.
5. We have a LOT of weapon support for bow for a support prof, I can actually self the 300 Tiger.
6. Sacrificial Shielding.
7. If we can perk and hit a prof, like a soldier, the amount of damage we can do is quite ridiculous. (I can pull off well over 200k DPM on rubi-ka with a bow)

So... our defense is fine with a bow right now, and we have a lot of offensive power. Of course we should be perkable by a few profs or else it wouldn't be balanced. It seems like almost all of the arguments these days are simply "We aren't invincible, we need to be!" I for one think my MP needs to be taken down a notch.

And Zset can Diaf.

Summary!!: MPs are unbalanced, but not in the direction everyone seems to think.

[Dancingrage]

And Zset can Diaf.

Apparently for some time, FC was busy trying to figure out what it would take for MPs to accept a 1-1(1) weapon. Mesmerizing Staff of Francois and Healing Staff of Alcofribas Nasier were both 1-1 weapons for some time until recently, and one could only assume that Zset was another attempt to see what one would be willing to trade for losing all personal damage (from weapons) only with much bigger bait behind it than slightly better healing or mezzing.

[Flynicist]

That, and having to constantly recast my pet or flee from fight just to save em is equally annoying.

*cough* SMG soldiers *cough*
looks like my pets give more pvp points than myself.

[Metafly7]

I agree with ya Starr, we are OP on defence already i think however our pet is getting behind on things. So i do still think a new pet would be in order but switching to SoZ only would make me feel useless as the master.

Note how pets say something like "You are not my master, you are not strong enough" thats the kind of feeling i get if i have shield on. Mental disorder i bet dont worry

[Xtremtech]

Apparently for some time, FC was busy trying to figure out what it would take for MPs to accept a 1-1(1) weapon.

Aye - but where I think they went wrong was in their efforts to refocus towards the pets. The basic issues of being able to disable pets too easily and kite away from pets too easily were never really addressed.... and without reliably viable pets, the equation was never going to add up.

They tried to help this with removers - but it's immunities and good NR that were needed much more. They also needed to increase the power of nuke damage more... all of these things are things that should really be available to all PvP MPs - but are likely to over-power weapon wielding MPs.... but tying it only to shield MPs also causes weirdness in the balance of MPs.

Now you get into situations where people come up with new ideas, which tend to work out as being overpowered with either the AS/SS MP end of the spectrum - or the Shield of Zset end. Finding a mid-line balance is very tough... but even more so, maintaining a mid-line balance over time is even harder.

Of course, any pet profession has always been difficult to balance in AO PvP for similar reasons. In particular though, the MP toolset has the potential to offer so much diversity and complexity in game-play - that the behaviour and choices of the players has a massive effect. It's a difficult profession to balance.

X

[Corily]

SoZ MP dies to good NT and trader annoyingly easy. I allways hunt SoZ-MPs on my trader just for the fun and giggles.

That, and having to constantly recast my pet or flee from fight just to save em is equally annoying.

Yes and no. SoZ MP's have a harder time killing nt's, but with a bow equipped the tactic was killing the nt before it killed you, you were having a tough deadline to beat and with some badluck he'd kill you before you ever got a chance. With SoZ and a good amount of nanoskills NSD will land fairly quickly, not to mention that quite a bit of nt's didn't train/fully train nano doctorate. The tactics are different, but the chances on killing/getting killed by NT's remain the same.

Traders, yes they indeed are able to annoy us (not kill), wich I found a perfectly 'un'balanced trade to what I came from (Enforcers, keepers, engineers, martial artists, decent soldiers,shades, ... ) knowing that I kill three times the amount of people than before. Perhaps it was because of how I played my MP, but I doubt it would have made alot of difference.

So... our defense is fine with a bow right now, and we have a lot of offensive power. Of course we should be perkable by a few profs or else it wouldn't be balanced. It seems like almost all of the arguments these days are simply "We aren't invincible, we need to be!" I for one think my MP needs to be taken down a notch.

I can argue on the defense part but that wasn't my initial point. The point was that a bow MP has too many flaws when comparing it to a SoZ MP. If bow MP's really is the offensive setup MP, why does my SoZ MP take down most professions as fast as when I was wearing my bow MP?

Imo, to be a true offensive MP, bow MP's just lack the nanoskills or the ability to debuff the targets NR.

[Flynicist]

Imbalance no? unreliable tools and pets? yes.

How many times you died during pvp because you executed the wrong nano and get stuck in recharge?

[K1nkstaah]

So, Soz should have that 30% reflect removed then, yeah?

[Starrfyre]

On a side note, I just got finished doing this.

I find it sad that I out lived 2 of my pets, and most likely the third, and simply because they were all pecked to death by hits not even exceeding 1k. I've even seen level 5 mobs in nasc hit Morti repeatedly and consistently while it was trailing a newbie character, that's just depressing.

(No I did not use Zset)

[Racatti]

I can argue on the defense part but that wasn't my initial point. The point was that a bow MP has too many flaws when comparing it to a SoZ MP. If bow MP's really is the offensive setup MP, why does my SoZ MP take down most professions as fast as when I was wearing my bow MP?

Prolly cause you didn't know how to play it.

[Flynicist]

Doubt he was talking about an AS bow.

[Starrfyre]

I can argue on the defense part but that wasn't my initial point. The point was that a bow MP has too many flaws when comparing it to a SoZ MP. If bow MP's really is the offensive setup MP, why does my SoZ MP take down most professions as fast as when I was wearing my bow MP?

Imo, to be a true offensive MP, bow MP's just lack the nanoskills or the ability to debuff the targets NR.

I quite often take down people in the 5 seconds it takes CoC to run it's course, I don't think Zset can quite match that.

However I agree that it's rather unnatural for a MP to have that ability and wouldn't mind if it was switched to exactly what you're suggesting; but for the time being, bow has much more offensive/alpha power than Zset will ever have in the current state of our toolset.

[Perskules]

hmm what alpha? fling and AS?

bow mp is totally useless for duels. all just alpha you. just stupid if you want do duels need equip zset

[Corily]

So, Soz should have that 30% reflect removed then, yeah?

I'm more suggesting on giving bow MP's a NR debuff, not as large as CB but enough to get away with it.

I find the bow to be lacking offense considered you're technically giving up alot of defence for it. Their inits is too low to launch procs on a reliable rate on full defense, combined with the fact you're casting around it drops the procchance to a minimum. (Do you often get procstunned by bow crats?)

Prolly cause you didn't know how to play it.

There are two ways to play it. The right way, and the kiting way. Considering I disliked kiting and kiting only slows the process of killing, I sure was on the right track with only a minor change in tactics.

I quite often take down people in the 5 seconds it takes CoC to run it's course, I don't think Zset can quite match that.

but for the time being, bow has much more offensive/alpha power than Zset will ever have in the current state of our toolset.

Very true, but I never wore my bow just so I could gank 210's who are farming their VP's. You can't say bow has 'alpha power' when you put a decently equipped 220 in front of you. I'd say the max dmg you can push in a 5 second time with enough luck is what, 10K? after that you're in a 5 second recharche looking at how your opponent starts using his own toolset.

[Ebag333]

I always find it interesting to read threads like these.

So Corily, how does it feel to be outside the box now?