Friday with Means - January 30th, 2009

[Means]

Booster:

Metaing tells me the Engi mines (version 1!) will be in for testing in the next build...which I am hoping is this weekend.

The first team instance "Mitaar Hero" will be testable this week too. I'm looking forward to seeing some of you on test to try out the new areas.

Last Week:

We addressed the issue of "instanced cities". I have been asked a great number of questions on this subject and I was thinking I would answer some of the ones I can this week. This will involve some changes to the current way cities now work...so read up if you have one. We'll be announcing the hell out of any changes to current cities before we push this live.

Explanation from Macrosun first:

Each org has a private playfield with one city plot. Reachable by teleport from <to be decided>.
No markets allowed.
People not in org will be allowed in by <to be decided>.

City upkeep payments will be taken from the org bank at the announced time.
Warnings will be given in org chat at 6, 4, 2, and 1 hour before the upkeep is due.
If the upkeep amount is not available in the org bank at the time it is due, the city will be demolished. (Also applies to old cities.)
Any cities that are in debt before the patch, will be immediately demolished on startup. (Old cities)
Any credits in the upkeep pool will be transferred to the org bank. (Old cities)
Advantages will no longer disable due to controller charge being low.(Old cities and new cities.)

Questions:

Q - Is there one city per instance or is it shared?
A - The instances will only contain one org city.

Q - Plot Size?
A - The instanced cities will be the same size as an "old" small city plot. Old cities will still have the advantage of having a market, so they will retain an advantage over the new instanced version.

Q - Price?
A - There is a lot of heated argument over this issue. My personal feeling is that instanced cities are not the target goal of hardcore orgs. To mean this should mean they lack a hardcore pricetag. Instanced cities should have a similar price to buying a small/medium old city plot. The upkeep will likely be similar to an small old city plot.

Q - Will buildings come with the city?
A - No. You will get to choose and build your own.

Q - How do you get/request a city?
A - If your org currently does not own a city you can simply enter the instance door...and purchase your city. Entering the door from then on will take you to your city.

Q - Plot size options?
A - Not for now. The intention is to grant access to alien content to more players...not to completely devalue the current city market.


Whew..another busy week!

Cheers,

Colin "Means" Cragg

[Technogen]

Mitaar Hero A++ Would play again! (hopes there's no music, I have sound off.)


6 hours is plenty of warning for the rent, it can now be paid by ANYONE IN ORG, currently rent is around 100m for a large city, 50m for a medium city, and 25m for a small city. EVERY Org that owns a city should beable to do pay this. Cities themselves cost 400m, 250m, and 100m to buy (currently) These numbers can go up and down slightly due to the full size of the city but they are near spot on for price.

Any org that can afford a city should beable to maintain the appoprate amount of credits in the ORG BANK (type /org bank to see your orgs bank) this is not a system like the current cities were there needs to be a Gen+ on to pay rent.

I still don't understand why GMS can't deliver via the grid from the GMS terminal.

Its because the GMS would have to gain the whole Loot table of the game to be able to spawn an item, then they would have to create a way to delete an item from a players "bag" via remote.

To much of a hassle for giving players just a little bit of "don't run around time." People dont explore this game enough as it is, making it so they dont have to go anywhere but the big cities would bring death to it.




Sounds like the city's are shaping up nicely, good job Macro.

[Harios]

I think that overall this will be a healthy addition to the game.
As some hardcore people seem to have taken over lots of city plots.
We will see the creation of more orgs because you do not need to buy a city anymore.
Also I predict that the cost of AI armor will drop a LOT now everyone can farm.

One question about the cities:
I like the option to use city whompas in the middle of nowhere... will this be possible with these isntanced cities?

Some off topic questions:
1. I would love some more info regarding your "balance" ideas.
What professions will be balanced and what kind of balance are you thinking of?
Will you consider research/perklines/etc?...

2. More specific regarding enforcers, when can we expect a revamp of the blunt lines?
And will you consider a composite weaponline buff for the masters of melee?

3. How are you going to make perkresets more automated?
Can you reset whole perklines at once?
Can you preset the perks you would like to have reseted without having to log on?
Will the perkreset timer be decreased?
What are your specific plans regarding perkresets?

4. Will we see the 18.0 patchnotes anytime soon?
Is it correct that the launch of 18.0 will hopefully happen middle february?
Because the zones will be tested now... I doubt they will be ready in 2 weeks.

That's it from me

Edit:
When will the professional program get some new professionals?

[speardancer2]

I got a simpler solution, fix the mothership missions so they're not so stupid hard at TL 3-4 levels....

There's alien content now, and more coming with the expansion, why are you wasting time messing with cities?

[Autohead]

Advantages will no longer disable due to controller charge being low.(Old cities and new cities.)

So...does this also mean an end to the random loss of city advantages due to crashing/zoning/whatever the heck causes it?

[Wagabunda]

Do fr00bs can enter instanced city ?

[Technogen]

So...does this also mean an end to the random loss of city advantages due to crashing/zoning/whatever the heck causes it?

Yes

[Hacre]

I got a simpler solution, fix the mothership missions so they're not so stupid hard at TL 3-4 levels....

There's alien content now, and more coming with the expansion, why are you wasting time messing with cities?

Because not all orgs have nine hundred and eleventy billion credits to purchase any kind of city plot right now to be able to have either city benefits, or be able to run AI raids.

LE missions do not replace all the AI raid content. So AI raids are still a desirable thing to run.

I do feel, Means, that the shopping system should be looked at though instead of just flat out saying "no markets".

If this change isn't going to drop the eleventeen trillion credit cost of city plots then smaller orgs are still going to have the same issues with trading as they do now.

We're what, supposedly almost 30 thousand years into the future at this point? We can digitally encrypt our bodies into the grid, instantaneously travel from point A to point B via Whompas, but there's no kind of courier service AT ALL?

For a small fee, people should have the option of having the item they want to purchase either spawn in their inventory, or be able to retrieve it from some kind of courier terminal. This would offer convenience for everyone and open up the possibility of -everyone- being able to trade via the Global Market terminal.

It would also be better for the economy to no longer prevent Clan from purchasing things from Omnis and vice versa.

[Eponyx]

So...does this also mean an end to the random loss of city advantages due to crashing/zoning/whatever the heck causes it?

I doubt it, but I don't have any info that says different. And loss of city advantages is usualy caused by crashing, forcing the client to close early (alt+f4 x 2) or other way to kill the client whit out loging out propperly (siting down + logout countdown bar).

NO official FC statments here, Thanks for reading.

[egadsrk2]

Does this mean an org with an old city can also have a new city, and control them both?

As it stands, a farm raid generally takes 26 to 30 minutes to complete. And an hour to do the cloak. Which means if an org can control two cities from the same name, its a hop skip and a jump away to do two farms in an hour.

This is no revelation. People have been doing this for years. They just happened to have two orgs for it.

On demolision, current warning is around a month of protection. With spams every few hours. I believe advantages go down after umm, 2 weeks, it's been far too long since I've not paid two months in advance. This new system appears to have a grand total of 6 hours. 6 hours may be sufficient for an instanced plot - total potential loss of 100m + buildings. But for the olds, you're looking at people with low population orgs who for one reason or another miss their payment because of a real life issue, such as good old fashioned sleep will lose their cities, possibly.

Six hours is not sufficient. 14 days is far too much. 28 days is enormously too much. Perhaps a week would be suitable?

Also in regards to org bank. You (developers) may think an org bank is a pool of the orgs money, but in many many many cases this is not true. An org bank is often a sum of money that belongs to the city owner. Like a city it is considered personal property. The exception to the rule may be orgs that have tax. And most of the taxed orgs are those little froob/sloob collections that are shortlived with some name that appeals to a 14 year old newcomer, with the lofty goal of owning a city. Which some how never manages to actually happen. You know the type. '*~ Revenge of the Dark Hell Knights From Hell 666 ~*'

It's all well and good that a city owner / org president should be the one that foots the bill, but this automatic debit system doesn't work in the real world particuarly well, for people who seperate their money into multiple accounts (not wanting a system to have access to that nest egg or even weekly paycheque for example), I don't see how it could work particuarly well in this game.

To give an example, using my own org bank. I treat it as western union. My org contains only me, I use org add on my real toons to pool it, and withdraw it all instantly on my president toon to hold it. Two reasons for this: A) All my funds are in the same place, not spread from arsehole to breakfast. B) When an orgbank is zero'd, at 1% Tax, I can easily see exactly what item I sold in the <period since last /org bank check>, without actually visiting my shops. Example: (1M Is in the org bank, I know that I sold a 100m item. At any given moment of time, I'm probably not selling many 100m items, so I know exactly what item sold and whos terminal sold it. I log in, collect my cash, org bank 99m, and my president withdraws 100 smackeroos) I don't think many people operate this way, but I'm surely not alone. Really not too pleased with the idea of having to permanently keep a sum of money in my org bank, even though its only 60 mill. A trifle sum for any city owner.

And a real world example. I have a VISA Debit card to pay for my internet connection, and AO Subscriber fees. 2-3 days before they are due, I go to the bank and deposit the money +5$ to allow for currency fluctuation. I refuse to allow AO's automatic payment system, or my ISP either to have direct access to my main funds, or my actual credit card which is never used for anything I don't do in person. Now, this is somewhat paranoid behaviour - but it is a response to being zapped in the past, and I won't let it happen again.

Back to game talk, this six hour thing is going to really really stuff a lot of Rubi-Ka up. And since plots WILL still retain value in the billions - though they will be lessened to a point - the problem will be compounded by empty plot farmers. Who just cruise from zone to zone looking for anyone whos late on their bill. Buy the empty, put a HQ on it, and sell the bastard. After last weeks city announcement, many plots went for sale. Some on the forums, some merely yelled about in game, a lot done privately from people who have so many cities they get cold canvassed for plot sales. Billions upon billions of money is still changing hands for cities, even though many of us are perfectly aware of the instancing to come.

Speaking of cities. I forgot I was in the middle of a farm raid while writing this post. D'oh! Bye bye CC charge.

Good news on the disabling code. Long over due. Hydey can cross another great and hopeless cause off his signature.

On another note, more of a game suggestion really. If its flat out impossible for an <outside of org> person to enter an instanced city owned by Org X, why is no shopping complex such a must. Many orgs have their own clumsy version of an org items bank, froob toons that hold stuff. You ask nicely, the bank owner logs in, hunts about for that gleaming shiny thing someone wants in amongst the mountains of poo. Donator guy gets a buzz for helping, handout guy gets free stuff, everyones happy. Theres already a mechanic in place to allow org-member-only shopping, how about this be a forced mechanic in instanced shops. People could use it as a means of donating to their orgmates. Some orgs have that tight knit family thing going, and this could only help it. Without any specific downsides - other than leaders having to inform new recruits how the shopping building operates. Alternatively, if outside of org people are permitted inside the instanced space, changing newstyle shops to operate like a HQ, preventing entry to out of org members (Yes, I'm aware it can be subverted with team) could also be the solution.

If it is possible for automatic actions to take place with the control tower (Read: Automatic payment), would it be unreasonable that as a benefit to these towers moving to direct debit, a system I hate with every fibre of my body on an atomic level, that cloaks automatically restore themselves?

[Rewo]

For a small fee, people should have the option of having the item they want to purchase either spawn in their inventory, or be able to retrieve it from some kind of courier terminal. This would offer convenience for everyone and open up the possibility of -everyone- being able to trade via the Global Market terminal.

It would also be better for the economy to no longer prevent Clan from purchasing things from Omnis and vice versa.

I actually like that we have to make the trip to purchase items from player shops, as sadistic as that may seem. That is one that bothers me to no end with new MMO's, instant item delivery. It just makes the whole process seem stale. I realize that it doesn't make sense given the level of technology we have on RK but I think it would be a shame to turn GMS terminals into instant item pez dispensers.

Having said that, I think the current system could be kept intact and have some kind of courier system put in place. It would have to be a significant fee, something like 10% for an item to be delivered - but to a central location rather than directly to the GMS terminal. Put a "storefront" in each of the factions main cities that players would have to go to for item pickup or something like that. Maybe that location could also serve as a marketplace for people without orgs or for those with instanced cities, a harsh fee (10% or so again) would allow "old" cities to retain their advantage yet still give everyone access to a shop system.

I would also keep the sided markets separate like they are now. It is a nice twist to things and adds to the feeling of belonging to one side or the other, not to mention a significant advantage that is appropriate for neutrals.

[Lheann]

I hope that longer warnings are available for city rent being due than 6 hours. Since old cities have such value and not all orgs have all timezone coverage a 6 hour warning window could very easily be missed and poof goes a city. I suggest 24 18 12 6 4 2 1 hour warnings. Also suggest if possible auto warning on loggin for all org members during the 24 hours prior to city rent being auto deducted.

What happens to all the items in the org shops when a city is demolished due to upkeep not being there? I have a feeling first org to loose a city and that looses several billion in items is going to be a mess to deal with.

Considering no-one has asked for the demolished on "bounced check" feature I hope you are ready for the storm you are about to unleash. I am sure it will knock down some farm cities but as an overall solution it begs customer service nightmare.

As for city rent being auto deducted I like that. So at what point will city advantages turn off? CC Charge = 0? If they never deactivate would that not drive the proce of CRU down as keeping the CC charged has no real meaning at point other than to start the raid. Also city advantages not deactivating would also means leaving the city charged over 50% has no meaning now. Sure a random attack can occur but why care as you will never loose advantages if the CC is brought to < 10%. I suspect these are some of the issues you have to work out.

I still don't understand why GMS can't deliver via the grid from the GMS terminal. Adding that would allow player shops in all cities. Without player shops I suspect orgs will not hold onto instanced cities much past the first few months. Just long enough to farm the credits to by a old style city with shops. I suspect the old style farming cities will get sold and replaced with smaller cheaper instanced cities within 2 or 3 months.

[Rewo]

fqwefwe

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[Technogen]

I hope that longer warnings are available for city rent being due than 6 hours. Since old cities have such value and not all orgs have all timezone coverage a 6 hour warning window could very easily be missed and poof goes a city. I suggest 24 18 12 6 4 2 1 hour warnings. Also suggest if possible auto warning on loggin for all org members during the 24 hours prior to city rent being auto deducted.

I would hope your org bank has enough for rent stuck up in it, It shouldn't be that hard to keep your org bank full of enough cred.

I still don't understand why GMS can't deliver via the grid from the GMS terminal.

Its because the GMS would have to gain the whole Loot table of the game to be able to spawn an item, then they would have to create a way to delete an item from a players "bag" via remote.

To much of a hassle for giving players just a little bit of "don't run around time." People dont explore this game enough as it is, making it so they dont have to go anywhere but the big cities would bring death to it.

[Harios]

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who would do such a thing?!?!

[Rewo]

I hope that longer warnings are available for city rent being due than 6 hours. Since old cities have such value and not all orgs have all timezone coverage a 6 hour warning window could very easily be missed and poof goes a city. I suggest 24 18 12 6 4 2 1 hour warnings. Also suggest if possible auto warning on loggin for all org members during the 24 hours prior to city rent being auto deducted.

What happens to all the items in the org shops when a city is demolished due to upkeep not being there? I have a feeling first org to loose a city and that looses several billion in items is going to be a mess to deal with.

Considering no-one has asked for the demolished on "bounced check" feature I hope you are ready for the storm you are about to unleash. I am sure it will knock down some farm cities but as an overall solution it begs customer service nightmare.

As for city rent being auto deducted I like that. So at what point will city advantages turn off? CC Charge = 0? If they never deactivate would that not drive the proce of CRU down as keeping the CC charged has no real meaning at point other than to start the raid. Also city advantages not deactivating would also means leaving the city charged over 50% has no meaning now. Sure a random attack can occur but why care as you will never loose advantages if the CC is brought to < 10%. I suspect these are some of the issues you have to work out.

If there is no longer an upkeep balance, the need for warnings is lessened. Org bank doesn't have the limits the old system did and can be kept at a level that will cover rent for many months or even years in advance. More warning couldn't hurt though.

I think the advantages simply will not go down at all now. CRU market can hardly even be called a market these days with CRU being so readily available, it is very cheap now already so I don't see that as a factor in this decision.

The demolition on "bounced check" system is already in place with the current upkeep balance. Player items never get lost as they are tied to individual characters, not the org building or terminal. They are essentially bags that are only accessible via a terminal.

[IHaveHugeNick]

More warning is an absolute must. People make mistakes.

You managed to "achieve" prices on cities that are reaching so high levels, it takes entire orgs months of farming cash. Introducing a mechanic that can make it all go to hell after only a short warning because of simple human error would be very bad idea.

Of course , instanced cities will hopefully, in time, normalise open market prices for "old" cities, but for now , alien city is a most valuable possession in entire game and it should be treated like one. I think we can all see the reasons behind this, but 6 hour warning is definitely not enough.

[egadsrk2]

What happens to all the items in the org shops when a city is demolished due to upkeep not being there? I have a feeling first org to loose a city and that looses several billion in items is going to be a mess to deal with.

A GMS terminal is a special kind of bag, belonging to the player. If you demolish a shop, theres merely no longer public access to that bag. It still exists on the player. If they setup a new shop, the items, money left to be collected, etc are still in it. Like a new bag, it has to be renamed.

I've destroyed my org several times for teh lulz. No problems. Also in a few cases lost my shop and had an ARK delete it for me. All items stay safe.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah. If you blow up your entire market and place a new one , all your items will reappear in first shop you open. I should know, i've build a few.

[Honorbound]

I hope that longer warnings are available for city rent being due than 6 hours. Since old cities have such value and not all orgs have all timezone coverage a 6 hour warning window could very easily be missed and poof goes a city. I suggest 24 18 12 6 4 2 1 hour warnings. Also suggest if possible auto warning on loggin for all org members during the 24 hours prior to city rent being auto deducted.

What happens to all the items in the org shops when a city is demolished due to upkeep not being there? I have a feeling first org to loose a city and that looses several billion in items is going to be a mess to deal with.

I also feel that the planned warning periods are way too short; periods suggested above sound a lot more friendly. The "message on logon" feature during the warning period would also be nice.
And it was not quite clear if the changes regarding upkeep will apply to both the instanced and the "old" cities?

When you lose your shop for any reason, you don't lose the items/credits in it, since they are not in fact stored in the shop, it's just a "button" that lets you open your character's shop table.