Thought experiment: MMO Pets

[Chrys]

Here's a simple thought experiment. Ignore AO, forget about every other game out there. If you were to create a pet for an RPG, what features would it have?

For example, what would you like to see in the following categories:

1) Abilities
2) Shortcomings
3) Master synergies
4) Group dynamics

In short, how would an ideal pet class work for you, and give it a role in your game that fits well in a variety of situations, PVP, PVM, solo, teaming, raiding, etc.

[Chrys]

Heh well no one's forcing you to post ><

It's just that Hyde's post was good but it was begging for a wider question of "what would you want to have if game mechanics didn't get in the way?" So to answer the question you need to think about the role of pet profs, what gives them their characteristic as a 'pet prof', how would they need to be played to be fun (and useful), etc.

[Xtremtech]

Hehe... the completely blank slate is kinda scary... not even comparing to other games.... I reckon I'll just spit out some headlines of paradigmatic stuff I've liked in pet professions I've played in the past first.

I've particularly liked:

Being able to influence the choice and development of my pets' stats, skills and abilities.

Being able to upgrade pets with equipment and items too.

Having a variety of different pets to choose from based on the type and style of combat I want to engage in. That may change from battle to battle.

Directly controlling the timing and usage of pet abilities.

Developing a long-term relationship with particular named pets, usually in connection with taming classes e.g. UO Tamer/WoW Hunter.

Controlling multiple pets at once.

Having a mixture during combat of:

Dumb Pets (Short-Term, no control, simple single function) including swarm pets
Temporary (Summoned/Charmed) Pets (Short-Term, owner controlled, no pet development),
Long Term Pets (Long-Term, owner controlled pets that develop).

Having pets which act on other players in support functions for teams/raids.

Supporting my own pets with my own abilities - e.g. healing, short-term in-combat buffs, debuff/CC removal etc.

Getting support from my own pets - e.g. true tanking, healing, CC, damage redirects, buffs etc.

I think those elements that I've enjoyed about pet classes also give an idea of the sort of things I'd like to see in a pet class if I were to develop one myself.

X

[Chrys]

Ok, to answer my own post...

Role-playwise, pets are separate entities from the master, summoned/created/tamed to do stuff the master needs done.

Functionally, pets are basically player-replacements, but not as good, both for RP and programming reasons (no AI can ever be as good as a player's, when reacting to non-routine/unpredictable tasks such as PVP).

I like the division in terms of more beast-like and more magical from fantasy games, which in sci-fi terms translates into mechanical vs electronic/jamming/'futurestuff' (nano-based - to use AOspeak).

So what roles do players have in MMOs? In WoW-speak, it's basically tank, dps, heals. Maybe buffing/debuffing support (ever since Paladin auras of Diablo II). The reason that this simplification of function works is because creating a debuff for a specific class to defeat a specific boss ends up creating linear gameplay. It's bad game mechanics that worked in single player games but hasn't translated to MMOs well (aka keepers in Mitaar, MPs with NSD at HI/Inf key/IS) and typically game designers avoid it, which is why if you've been slotted into this 'role' you're at the devs' mercy later when the new team gets wiser.

So what's left is the sustainable roles of tank, dps, heals. Another role might be attrition (pet master throwing masses of cheap pets at the opponent) - but because in MMOs healer power is very strong (as opposed to, for example, healers in RTS), attrition doesn't really work in MMOs.

In most games, players can at least spec into tank (i.e. make themselves tough for soloing, not so much agg-attracting) or DPS, heals not so much (though 'healer' classes can go pure healing or mix healing/dps usually). For a pet class to do it, it means having a game built from the bottom up with the pet performing these roles from the beginning. Pets with personality, charm, cure-factor are all well and good, but it's effectiveness that makes or breaks the pet class.

Now what would the pets look like? I think there should be two broad types: One type that works pretty much like the master, the other the opposite of the master.

The first pet archetype is so the petmaster can perform its 'specialist' role. Imagine a CC pet that has high magic damage owned by a casting profession. Or a beast pet that's basically a mauler, working alongside an equally tough beast handler. This would be particularly useful in teaming situations where the best team synergies are created when everyone is a specialist. The primary role is DPS, secondary is support (off-tanking, debuffs, etc.).

The second is the opposite-pet. The master is whimpy and weak while the pet is tough and deadly. Or the master is a tough frontline fighter, while its whimpy pet stands at the back and buffs/heals. This gives the pet class the balance of a 'generalist' role in soloing and small groups where each player has to fill a variety of roles. The primary role is tanking, secondary is support.

I can't imagine the pet class being a primary healer - because good healing (assuming heals aren't overpowered) is about timing and translating the healing to the pet then back to the owner to control the timing seems a bit pointless. At best the auto-heals of things like Morti are good, but because of the lack of skill required, they shouldn't be too powerful.

Now pets should have a variety of abilities that complement their roles. I think a DPS pet should have ranged for single-target damage, and melee (or very short range) for AoE damage. The pet owner's task should be able to 'open' holes in the opponent/mob defenses so that the DPS pet can do its work. Indeed this role is one that only a pet class could conceivably hold in a MMO because a non-pet class whose primary role was opening holes would be quite sucky in solo-mode. AC drains are as close to this as you get in AO... but they gave it to traders that sucked so bad they had to give them an insane crit boost instead.

Tanking pets should have low damage, small area buffs for fellow frontline fighters, and taunts and CC tools while being tough (high damage mitigation, particularly). Support pets should have similar CC tools, but more of the kind of debuffs auras and single target heals. Pet class shouldn't be allowed more than 2 pets out at a time, but no restrictions on the combination he chooses - in effect giving control of the specialisation needed - but pets would not be as powerful as the standard AO pets in terms of DPS).

So basically, the pet class 'specialises' according to the pets it pulls out.

[Ahndracorvid]

AO was my first real MMO experience and I was happy enough with it to not look elsewhere for a gaming hobby. I have no experience with other pet classes from other games to compare to. I guess in one way that makes things easier because I'm not unconsciously comparing MPs to some other pet class from some other game. But on the other hand I guess I also don't know what I'm missing, having never seen anything different.

So. In short, my 2 cents: I've always thought of an MPs' pets as a kinda personal mini-team. My job is to micromanage what they do and support them (ie. lead the team), so they can do their job of keeping me alive (yey teamwork!). That's basically what my idea of the caster-pet dynamic is. You support pets, pets support you. I've tried all 3 of AO's pet classes and I still feel MP is the most dynamic, because all our pets do different things. They all have a distinctive purpose which I feel the other two pet classes' pets lack; most of the time their pets are just extra DD.

With that in mind, some things that I feel could be improved (I'm not very good at this kinda thing, so bear with me if I come out with more vague comments than specific ideas):

- Attack pet needs to be able to cause more of a problem for opponents in PvP. Right now the impression I'm getting is Rihwen doesn't bother people as much as it should. People who've been attacked by it say stuff like "it doesn't do that much damage to me," "it's easily kitable, even without factoring in stuff like jumping over walls so it can't follow you", "it's very easy to just snare/root everything and zerg the MP while he's busy trying to remobilize them all". In short, our primary weapons (and indeed they're also arguably our primary form of defence) are too easily disabled. I don't know how pet pathing could be improved, but I do feel giving them more NR at least would really help. Maybe give Rihwen's weapon a slightly larger range so it can still hit targets trying to outrun it. It would be nice to see more of an "ohshi-!" reaction when people see it coming at them, rather than the current "meh lol, big deal" reaction.

- The mezzpet. I've been disappointed that so many MPs have gotten so frustrated with its ineffectiveness that they more or less pretend it doesn't exist any more and don't bother using it, because I think it has potential. It just needs something to make it equally as useful to us as the attack and heal pets. I feel the 100% break chance on its stun/root nano could be reduced, even if only a little. I really liked the idea someone else came up with a while ago for giving the mezzpet other abilities or nanos besides just Mesmeric Gaze, like a blind or snare or even a real calm (both single and AoE in all three cases), with the MP being able to control which attack/nano the mezzpet uses at any one time. It's supposed to be a confusion-bringer, not just make other people go "lol" when they see it coming at them. Hey there's a thought, what about giving Yidira the ability to fear opponents?

- The healpet. Not really sure what to put besides that a bigger heal, or a faster ticking heal that's not necessarily bigger than the one we have now, would be nice. It kinda feels like the damage we take has gotten heavier, but our means of mitigating that damage haven't really grown enough to counteract the change.

Most of the above is in reference to PvP. I'm reasonably happy with Rihwen's performance in PvM, though of course I won't complain if it gets improved in PvM either. Yidira's nano seems to land fairly well in PvM also, though due to this pet's tendency to get used less I'd give it a slightly lower rating than Rihwen. I'd really like it to be something equally useful to me, not just a dead weight that floats around most of the time until I happen to get an add. Healpet improvements, unlike improvements to the other two pets, would make a welcomed difference to both PvM and PvP equally I think, rather than simply being a mostly PvP issue.

I also like ideas people're throwing around about being able to merge with pets for better results through a combined effort between pet and caster, or something similar. Certainly for MPs whose pets basically are a part of the caster or derived from the caster, it would fit perfectly with the image of our prof and what it's capable of doing.

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Edited to add a subsequent thought:

Because I view MPs and their pets as a team, I think anything that makes us seem more like that would be awesome. And by that I mean, it would be nice if our pets' abilities made people look on the MP as a desirable teammate because it's like getting 4 times the extra help for the price of one, and not "oh here comes the one-person lag maker with its useless meatballs."

[Chrys]

Great post Ahndra

I can't wait for Diablo 3 to come out, Blizzard with fresh ideas will be quite fun, I'm hoping

[alesicis]

night elf hunter is pretty much the perfect pet class, i'd make it like that

[Xtremtech]

Aye WoW's Hunter class is very impressive since they brought in spec trees for the pets.

X

[topa_boss]

I'd want to go all sasori and control one hundred pets at the same time of different types. I would also want to disguise myself as a pet somewhere along the 100 pets i have. All pets will insta kill anything they land a hit on, but they may have low AR. I would also be able to capture enemy players and monsters, hollow them out, and use them as pets, with some of the abilities kept - like if i catch a soldier as pet I cau use burst


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA

[Obtena]

I'm pretty happy with the way most MMO's handle pets. I envision an evolution of pets though because the key problem with MMO pets atm is that they are just some extension of the player. Personally I think pets should be a character unto itself. They should have stats, their own equipment and special abilities. It's up to you to customize your pet with whatever you feel appropriate. I haven't ever played any MMO that allows players to control a mob they customized. The closest thing was using Clones on Exobiologist in Tabula Rasa. That was awesome, but unfortunately, the control wasn't all there yet.

As for specific AO content, it's completely dumb that FC doesn't have a variety of pets for each class doing differnent stuff with different abilities. MP kinda gets there, but even just three types of pets is alot short. There should be 10's of pets, all wtih different drawbacks and strengths. That would be a hell of alot more interesting for the pet classes. Ah well.

[Dancingrage]

At this time I only really want pets to do one thing and one thing only, the rest is just for cool/cosmetic factor: I want the pet combat ability to scale directly with the master's skill in casting the pet.

Pet min damage needs to go up by quite a bit, I'm thinking maybe 2.3k would be a good point to shoot for for pet damage. We usually see only min damage unless we're on RK, but also bear in mind that I want this to scale too with master nanoskills. Pet AR scaling with master skill would put emphasis back on what we're supposed to be: a pet prof, not a mixed-up prof with mobile useless dots and hots.

I would also like to see some sort of taunting/detaunting capacity given to the pet. We have a pet with highest HP in game next to enforcers in Mongo's Behemoth, it'd be nice if we could actually use it as a tanking pet. (fixing healpets to actually heal {the percentage heal idea seems top notch for this} would make this become useful) As it is, aggro management is all about OD'ing the pet and pulling taunt with nukes, improving pet damage will pull more aggro onto the pet from the caster, so some sort of pet taunt tools will be needed.

Turn the Mezz pet into a 'utility player' that could do a number of different things as needed would be prime.

An idea I'd had for a long time was that there could be a long quest you could do to get a 5 minute pet zerg, creating lots of pets and just siccing 'em on everything in the immediate area. Would break graphics engine as it sits now for sure, but would be a nice touch.

But almost 100% behind the idea of pet skills and damage/etc being based on master's nanoskills at the moment.

[alesicis]

How about pets getting a +1 or +2 to evades, nr, aao, aad, min dmg, and hp for every level you gain? Seems like that would be helpful in this regard at all levels.

[Xtremtech]

Just out of interest, did anybody ever confirm whether or not there's a post-1K AR damage multiplier coefficient applied to pets?

X

[Chrys]

Just out of interest, did anybody ever confirm whether or not there's a post-1K AR damage multiplier coefficient applied to pets?

Not that I know of. I believe Kuz has demonstrated pets have MBS though.

[Susi]

So, seeing as we don't need to care about limitations in this conversation.

A lot has been said already, but I would like to put my engineer 2 cents in.

It would be really cool to be able to develop and tweak your pet, especially a mechanical pet just craves to be upgraded with all sorts of crazy ideas.

In AO for example it would be really awesome if the robotic pets had their own world of robotic implants, weapons and special armor sheets etc. You would tradeskill them up, plan difficult setups and you would have to twink them to get them to work too. Basically just like twinking a character but the items would be different. Being able to modify weapons for pets to use would be pretty nifty too.
In a world where you don't need to worry about graphical limitations, would be great if these modifications changed the bot's appearance too. It would be nice to be able to choose from a couple of graphics options when you add armor plates for example, so bots would all look a bit different.

Also choosing between a large variety of paint kits with all sorts of cool paintjobs would be cool. Camo painted pet adds to your own concealment as the towering beast isn't seen so easily from a distance, whereas a red bot with the imperial japanese warpaint would add to pet taunt value. =P

It would be quite interesting, when you face an engineer you would never be quite sure what's coming against you hehe...suddenly you realise your opponent has tweaked their dog to the max and slapped a remodulator on it's back, the bot is twice it's normal size and is vibrating and twisting ominously =P

Perhaps later I'll write a more practical viewpoint. :-)