Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 64

Thread: The Case for Damage-To-Nano

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    @Hacre:

    @ Corily: I'd have to look at comparable HP/nano setups to get an idea how effective that would be. 50-50 would be nice but with how DtN works as listed above by Hacre, we'd have to have at least 2 nano per every hit point for it to be reasonably effective. Since my computer with the skill emulator is toast atm, I don't have good numbers at my disposal so I can't say one way or another but it seems like you may have a good idea there of a straight 50-50 split. Leaving it like that would make it more of an endgame option, whereas I was hoping to come up with ideas that would help TL5 MP play out to some degree, where we're suffering a bit in terms of effectiveness and defense lately.
    At the moment I'm at a 17k hp/16k nano setup.

    I believe with this dtn setup I'd change towards a ~10khp/20k nano setup (ofcourse depending on what the actual amount of dtn would be). I would be getting even slightly more evades. All in all really dependant on how things turn out and how you prefer to work with it.

    I only fear for SoZ mp's, they might turn out to be too strong (at surviving) than they're allowed to be.

  2. #42
    Shield MPs would be stronger no matter how you slice it but the rub to all of that is you're taking huge chunks out of their one personal capacity, that of casting nanos, and after that then the Shield MP's a sitting duck so to speak while you're chewing at their HP, but there is a likely balance problem there.

    The problem with trying to get a baseline DtN is that if it's too low, you may as well not bother unless you're doing a Shield Pile Up, and if it's too high you'll be perpetually outta nano (especially at the 1 to 3 conversion rate you're looking at: Top NT conversion is one to 2 for atrox NTs during NBG)

    If you're thinking that I'll say top out at 25% instead of 10, but that's me, with conversion of 1 to 2 (equal to top end of NT conversion rates).

    And Rk4 calls so I'll get more on this later.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    Shield MPs would be stronger no matter how you slice it but the rub to all of that is you're taking huge chunks out of their one personal capacity, that of casting nanos, and after that then the Shield MP's a sitting duck so to speak while you're chewing at their HP, but there is a likely balance problem there.

    The problem with trying to get a baseline DtN is that if it's too low, you may as well not bother unless you're doing a Shield Pile Up, and if it's too high you'll be perpetually outta nano (especially at the 1 to 3 conversion rate you're looking at: Top NT conversion is one to 2 for atrox NTs during NBG)

    If you're thinking that I'll say top out at 25% instead of 10, but that's me, with conversion of 1 to 2 (equal to top end of NT conversion rates).

    And Rk4 calls so I'll get more on this later.
    Well, there's a couple of things here.

    1) The higher you make it, the more difficult it is to implement. You make it 25%, and people are going to complain about how SoZ MP's have static reflects of 92%. Now that's not strictly true, but it'll still come up. Imagine a SoZ MP with 25% DTN, RRFE, reflect bracers, Notum Shield, and SS up. They could stand in the middle of an OS and come out pretty much unscathed.

    2) Conversion ratios are based on the amount that you're deflecting to nano. If you deflect 25%, then 1 to 3 is far too high. If it's only 10%, then 1:3 is an acceptable rate.

    3) In the case of SoZ MP's, our opponents need ways to stop them--if not actually kill them. With a high conversion ratio they can relatively quickly drain their nano, effectively making the SoZ MP completely useless. (Especially if they can disable pets.) If the opponents can't kill them or drain their nano (which would be true if it's say 25% with a 1:1 ratio), then the DTN is effectively a permanent defense that has no way of being removed. That puts SoZ MP's static defense insanely high.

    4) You need to be careful of the combination with various factors. DTN + SS, or DTN+ SoZ (or all three!) would be absolutely nuts and make any decently setup MP pretty much invulnerable. Heck, even DTN + evade procs + evade setup would be nuts. I can have defense of 3350 easily, you stack a 25% damage reduction on top of that and that would make me neigh impossible to kill provided I didn't get rooted/stunned. We're not supposed to be impossible to kill. We're support profs, we're supposed to be squishy. Just not quite as squishy as we are now....
    (For more math fun, look at the total regular hit damage reduction of damage debuffs + reflects + your suggested DTN nano. It's crazy high.)

    5) Don't forget about PvM applications. People have already theorized about MP tanking Beast thanks to the crazy high reflects they can (theoretically) get. Add 25% DTN on top of that...... As much as I'd like to be able to solo anything ingame.....

    I could go on, but I think I'll stop there.
    Last edited by Ebag333; Feb 3rd, 2009 at 22:35:09.

  4. #44
    Static always on DtN in the form of the 25% you mention, do not and should not stack with RRFE.

    So there wouldn't be any 92% reflecting going on.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    Static always on DtN in the form of the 25% you mention, do not and should not stack with RRFE.

    So there wouldn't be any 92% reflecting going on.
    DTN isn't in the reflect line.

    Code:
    School	Protection: 809
    Now technically there isn't a reason why it couldn't be in the reflect line, but what do you think people are going to choose, 25% DTN that drains their nano, or 30% RRFE that doesn't?


    In order to make that an effective choice you'd need more than 30%, which quickly gets into the "OP" range.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    DTN isn't in the reflect line.

    Code:
    School	Protection: 809
    Now technically there isn't a reason why it couldn't be in the reflect line, but what do you think people are going to choose, 25% DTN that drains their nano, or 30% RRFE that doesn't?


    In order to make that an effective choice you'd need more than 30%, which quickly gets into the "OP" range.
    Um, no.

    Shelter does -not- stack with RRFE. You can still take a 30% capped hit through RRFE, you cannot take a 30% capped hit through DtN. LE nukes pierce RRFE, they do not pierce DtN.

    There's many advantages that DtN gives, despite having 5% less "reflect".

    There's a reason I choose Shelter over RRFE/Soldier aura 100% of the time in PvP.
    Last edited by Hacre; Feb 3rd, 2009 at 23:11:42.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    Um, no.

    Shelter does -not- stack with RRFE. You can still take a 30% capped hit through RRFE, you cannot take a 30% capped hit through DtN. LE nukes pierce RRFE, they do not pierce DtN.

    There's many advantages that DtN gives, despite having 5% less "reflect".

    There's a reason I choose Shelter over RRFE/Soldier aura 100% of the time in PvP.

    That's very curious. I don't see anything in the DB that would prevent Shield from stacking with RRFE. They're different lines, and there's nothing that checks to see if another nano is running.

    If you say so tho....

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    That's very curious. I don't see anything in the DB that would prevent Shield from stacking with RRFE. They're different lines, and there's nothing that checks to see if another nano is running.

    If you say so tho....
    It's in both, for some reason it doesn't show on auno.

    But NTs able to use Shelter -and- RRFE would be stupidly OP. If an NT has Shelter going, no other reflect nanos will work.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    It's in both, for some reason it doesn't show on auno.

    But NTs able to use Shelter -and- RRFE would be stupidly OP. If an NT has Shelter going, no other reflect nanos will work.
    Thanks. That makes sense.

    A few of us Profs were discussing this, and the need for SG to immediately fix this so we can see nanos properly in his DB.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    It's in both, for some reason it doesn't show on auno.

    But NTs able to use Shelter -and- RRFE would be stupidly OP. If an NT has Shelter going, no other reflect nanos will work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Thanks. That makes sense.

    A few of us Profs were discussing this, and the need for SG to immediately fix this so we can see nanos properly in his DB.
    just did a debug output rip of the itemdb, and i'm not seeing anything thats under multiple strains. or stackings for that matter.

    short of strains can be under multiple schools, not seeing anything in here. will have to check with a dev to really find out i suppose.

    EDIT: ok... just noticed in-game our composite nanos have multiple "nanoline" statements. and looking at my db rip, it only shows sense imp line.

    it could be an oversight when jayde created his ripping program. will attempt to find other methods to see if i can pull multiple strains from nanos using his tool tho.


    EDIT 2: AHAHAHAHAH! found em!!
    Last edited by shadowgod; Feb 4th, 2009 at 01:49:36.

    Level 1 to 300 in 8 Years! Pwn!
    - Join us on Discord! -
    AO WIKI!
    Arcanum!


  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    EDIT 2: AHAHAHAHAH! found em!!
    It is with much regret that I announce that our good friend and cohort, ShadowGod, has finally gone insane.

    He is currently in good health, sitting in a corner rocking back and forth and chanting the nano lines over and over again.....

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    It is with much regret that I announce that our good friend and cohort, ShadowGod, has finally gone insane.

    He is currently in good health, sitting in a corner rocking back and forth and chanting the nano lines over and over again.....
    you so.... anti-funneh...

    [x122468x]Stacking Line: [546]StackingLine2: [167] 167
    [x122468x]Stacking Line: [547]StackingLine3: [159] 159
    [x122468x]Stacking Line: [548]StackingLine4: [161] 161
    [x122468x]Stacking Line: [549]StackingLine5: [157] 157
    [x122468x]Stacking Line: [550]StackingLine6: [163] 163


    thats for composite mochams 1 hour. =P

    i just have to figure out how the hell to best intergrate that into my existing item db. think this is a job for bit shifting and bitwise checking!

    Level 1 to 300 in 8 Years! Pwn!
    - Join us on Discord! -
    AO WIKI!
    Arcanum!


  13. #53
    SG, any chance you could name the appropriate lines that auno.org only calls "809" or the like while you're at it?

    I think at this point how it looks in terms of pvp usage is figuring out how it'll work in regards to capped hits, which naturally is the whole focus of this exercise since we see lots of those when we're not using SS, and even if, if a soldier decides it's karaoke night out in the old Battlestation from what I have heard.

    As to OP-ness of the whole thing: I think this needs to be thought of from a somewhat different perspective, that of thinking of this as 'how many more hits could this get me in pvp and what am I willing to pay for it'. I have stated that this shouldn't in any way stack with SS, and will continue to assert that.

    As for Shield MPs being able to tank Beast: No taunt tools ftl.

  14. #54
    Shield MP's were never much of a threat. Problem is people go insane when those MP's cap around and ignore everything on their path

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    SG, any chance you could name the appropriate lines that auno.org only calls "809" or the like while you're at it?
    809 is "Nano Shielding".

    some odd reason, i dont have any nanos listed under that strain. which may be a result of how implimenting patch versions broke some nano attributes.

    Level 1 to 300 in 8 Years! Pwn!
    - Join us on Discord! -
    AO WIKI!
    Arcanum!


  16. #56
    Now if they actually conflict with RRFE then this is an entirely different beast altogether....I'll look more in a few when I have more than 10 min to rub together.

  17. #57
    This still looks like a viable option for defense. However it still doesn't resolve the problem of perk damage, which is a hit or miss, all or nothing situation.

    I take it I can safely assume that there's not going to be any random roll involved in perk checks anytime before we're all safely resting in our graves, right?

  18. #58
    Should bump this since it's been mentioned like 3 times in the last few days so some people can re-examine it. I'll be putting the damn thing in my sig so you can just look for my unsmiling mug to find it afterwards.

  19. #59
    Time to get back to this point since you are making the world spin around this.

    DtN sucks.

    I have a 220 trader
    I have a 160 NT

    I've tested it on both plenty of times.

    DtN sucks

    Yes, the NT one is much better than the trader one, but it has 3 drawbacks:

    - It would leave us even worst than SS.
    - It would last 0.1 seconds, as would our nano. I have 15k nano in my nanomage trader, even with GTH on (+700 tick rate), it last nothing and many times you don't even feel the damage reducing effect.
    - Don't ever dream of getting something like an NT DtN from developers and even in the impossible case we get the same, it wouldn't perform as well as the one NTs have.


    Please, please, get a trader, level it to 220 like I did, equip it well, test DtN, and them come here with any arguments you still have for DtN. It looks cool (for you) on paper only.

  20. #60
    I think the difference in how you think of this vs. how I think of this is usually people have one or two things they rely on, such as TMS, etc. that they use as the sum of their defense, or close to it. Acrobat perkline actions, Bio-Cocoon, etc.

    I'm not thinking of DtN in this manner. By itself, it's not going to save a given character's bacon in a hot spot, it's not going to soak up an alpha by itself, give you the opportunity to /flip or /moon while fighting off a whole zerg, etc.

    Combined with other improvements this idea could find a place in the MP toolset of the future, where we don't have one defensive option that is hit-or-miss to rely on but an array of smaller defensive options that add up when combined.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •