I still don't quite get this. If clicking a button is a chore to you then why are you even playing a MMO in the first place?Originally Posted by eroz_c
By the way, if you ever planted any real mines, it's rather boringso RP-wise them being a chore is just about right.
Maybe you could watch a movie. It's kinda like playing a MMO except there are no buttons to push. perfect!
Veteran of Equilibrium
I think the point is, that while other professions get "yay fun!" tools, Engineers are getting click and forget mines. Not exactly much "fun" to be had there, now is there?I still don't quite get this. If clicking a button is a chore to you then why are you even playing a MMO in the first place?
Maybe you could watch a movie. It's kinda like playing a MMO except there are no buttons to push. perfect!
Engineers have been long wanting some kind of fun addition that hasn't involved swapping a backpack or two of gear, or an addition that has zero benefit to them and lots of benefit to others (retarded team blockers, for example) for a long time.
Incidentally Alcoydel, just to pick you up on an earlier post, not EVERYONE wanted the team blockers, I was against them being introduced when they were still on test live. With no boost to Engineer survivability yet something bumping them up on the most wanted list, with ZERO benefit to the Engineer, while overpowering heavy defense professions ALL AT THE SAME TIME, was just an epic EPIC BAD IDEA(TM).
Instead of "mines" I think Engineers should be given different kinds of throwing grenades, with an AoE splash effect, something active for the engineer to do.
Now, forgive me Engineers, I do not have an Engineer myself, so if I'm off on anything here, please correct me. Bear in mind when you're about to savage me though, I would like to see you guys have some more fun.
Just my 2c.
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
team blockers is somethign i will be asking for the removal of in the "ballancing discussions" means has mentioned in his post, we dont want them, pvp toons who rely in specials dont want them and the game realy doesnt need them.
As for the mines and the concept of a static "trap", i for one am realy looking forward to havign a slightly more tactical use in pvp, Im looking forward to actualy being able to "support" my faction in pvp with "support" tools on my "support" profession.
I get the feeling that one or two engies (who do NOT speak for the majority of us) realy do want to infact be soldiers or agents or any other alpha killing genocide machine other than a support engineer.
If your main goal in your ao life is to kill as many people as you can in as short a space of time as possible, I'd suggest that being an engineer is not for you, go roll an agent or soldier.
I was "party A"
This.
I play in PvP, a high aad profession (crat) and a big damage evade setup profession (NT).
I have zero interest in being immune to things that can actually make me worry in PvP. Immortality has no place in PvP, it makes the game less fun for others. When up to 5 people can have such immortality presented to them where they wouldn't normally have it, something is incredibly rotten in China.
Engineers, I feel, should have more content given to THEM as opposed to being given more content that is for OTHERS.
To my surprise, I've found I enjoy pet professions. I currently have a 220 Crat and a level 90 MP. I want to try out Engineer, but until they are given something other than tradeskilling or DD at end game (my NT DDs just fine, I don't need another DD toon) that actually looks like fun, I won't be rolling one.
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
Engineer's currently do better in pvp with unsupported weaponry than with supported weaponry. We can actually do better in pvp with an AS setup without casting all of our top nanos than with a non AS setup and casting all our top nanos. If pets are indeed our primary "weapons" than how about they are as easy to get along with as combat professions putting their top weapons on. We struggle with weapons (at least in pvp), and we struggle with nano reqs.
To be immune to the majority of a non AS engineer's damage, you simply have to run in a circle. How about changing the pet snare aura, to a pet snare proc. That way it isn't subject to 150% NR check, 20s pulse, innate resistance, and lastly doesn't get us flagged or snare friendlies who are flagged. Or incorporate supported engineer weapons to lessen the pet kiteing, but without turning us into a CC profession.
Last edited by Mountaingoat; Jan 24th, 2009 at 20:08:11.
What, this again? You dont get anything, even if we went through that already. You dont get to tell me or anyone not to use new content. Its a fundamentally wrong point. If it wasnt , with simple "then dont " i could easily dismiss any kind of complain or wish anyone in the world at any time.
Dont like new Trader nano? Dont use it.
Dont like new Trader gun? Dont use it.
Sync problems? Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to play melee.
Lag? You dont have to play during prime time.
Dont like the booster? You dont have to buy it.
They gave you burned sandwich in BurgerKing? You dont have to eat it.
Your partner is being a pain in the butt? You dont have to be together.
Your life sucks? You dont have to keep going, you can just stop breathing.
You like the idea of mines and think it will be fun to use them? Good for you, but i dont care. I dont like the idea of Engineer content being designed only to please the others. I dont like to, once again, to be condemned to boring, dull, uninteresting activities just so other people can think game suddenly became cooler.
Engineers have been sacrificed on the altar of being useful to others for years, and frankly i'm quite tired of it.
Getting a team? Shut up and make my armor. Tower War? Shut up and warp people. Orbital Strikes? Shut up and plant jamming towers. Battlestation? Shut up and give blockers. And soon to come, shut up and plant mines.
What, you're not having any fun? Who cares, you are here to serve and be useful. Like, that towel boy who gets to prepare fresh towels to heroic captain of football team , while he gets to do all the cheerleaders.
FYI ,unlike you, i propably do speak for entire PvP Engineers community , that is THE MAJORITY of people who will be actually using this addition ingame on daily basis. If you want to self-proclaim yourself a voice of majority, be warned that only it will mean the one-person majority selected from people who spend all their time on ICC platform @ Test Server.
The only reason I wouldn't like a new nano or a new gun is because they are worse than the options I already got. If that was the case, I wouldn't use them.
You don't have mines now and mines are not replacing a toolset you already have, so the mines are useful at best, an option at worst. Never a negative.
If you choose to think of mines as something that is actually negative to you as an engie because you think of them as "one more thing you are supposed to do, but really don't want to", or if you are just irritated that FC give support-tools to the engineer profession, then that's something you have to take up with FC, not me. All I am saying is that the mines do not make engies worse and they do give engies another tool in their arsenal and many will find that tool fun to use in PvP. This can not be argued against in any logical way that I can see.
If you personally don't like them then tell FC, not me. I haven't said anything dramatic in here
Veteran of Equilibrium
So if we don't like the direction the Developement Team is taking we shut up and just Stop playing? AO Strength Lies in it's players NOT Some theory that says this will be interesting. It's a REAL players ability to be heard and considered. This is it's only strength we know we don't play for the customer service.What, this again? You dont get anything, even if we went through that already. You dont get to tell me or anyone not to use new content. Its a fundamentally wrong point. If it wasnt , with simple "then dont " i could easily dismiss any kind of complain or wish anyone in the world at any time.
Dont like new Trader nano? Dont use it.
Dont like new Trader gun? Dont use it.
Sync problems? Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to play melee.
Lag? You dont have to play during prime time.
Dont like the booster? You dont have to buy it.
They gave you burned sandwich in BurgerKing? You dont have to eat it.
Your partner is being a pain in the butt? You dont have to be together.
Your life sucks? You dont have to keep going, you can just stop breathing.
You like the idea of mines and think it will be fun to use them? Good for you, but i dont care. I dont like the idea of Engineer content being designed only to please the others. I dont like to, once again, to be condemned to boring, dull, uninteresting activities just so other people can think game suddenly became cooler.
Engineers have been sacrificed on the altar of being useful to others for years, and frankly i'm quite tired of it.
Getting a team? Shut up and make my armor. Tower War? Shut up and warp people. Orbital Strikes? Shut up and plant jamming towers. Battlestation? Shut up and give blockers. And soon to come, shut up and plant mines.
What, you're not having any fun? Who cares, you are here to serve and be useful. Like, that towel boy who gets to prepare fresh towels to heroic captain of football team , while he gets to do all the cheerleaders.
FYI ,unlike you, i propably do speak for entire PvP Engineers community , that is THE MAJORITY of people who will be actually using this addition ingame on daily basis. If you want to self-proclaim yourself a voice of majority, be warned that only it will mean the one-person majority selected from people who spend all their time on ICC platform @ Test Server.
Why are you so bored that troll forum to try and start arguments? Are we compensating for no life at home ? BTW you DONT Speak for the engineer community atleast on Rimor I know 80% of them most of them are cool unlike present company. Perhaps you should Stay on test where you "think" you matter.
ok first up, no i dont proclaim myself the voice of the engineer community, where as you do, Delusions of self importance much?
Secondly, you just spent the last few weeks saying no one will use the mines, now your saying "THE MAJORITY of people who will be actually using this addition ingame on daily basis" so people will be using them now?
Thirdly, you can only spout endless streams of bile and complaint for so long before people stop paying attention and begin to ignore your opinions completely.
Lastly, if you dislike your engineer as much as you seem to, do me a personal favour, go roll something else.
I was "party A"
the problem is that we don't want another passive role/addition. we want something to do. placing a mine is active yes, sitting in the corner, patiently waiting for someone to step on it is not. Another sad factor in this mess is that both the debuffs are broken parts of our toolsets so any future requests for them will probably be overlooked.
I have some nice carb plates and other stuff if you have nothing to do
doh sorry, I burned my carb tools long ago in an age old of engi rite of passage.I have some nice carb plates and other stuff if you have nothing to do
I have tools too....
*ducks*
First off, let me say that I don't consider the idea of mines to be an utter failure and that they could be useful and fun even for the engineer herself in various situations. More on this later.
I still don't quite get this. If clicking a button is a chore to you then why are you even playing a MMO in the first place?Well, Hacre sort of replied for me, and Nick too to an extent. It's going to be a chore, so to speak (probably a bad choice of term probably, but please don't drain me) to be planting mines, which necessitate that you (or someone else) stick around and seize the opportunity that a hapless enemy running headlong into a mine presents. Defense can be fun, just as much as offense, however mines by their very nature is a very defensive addition forcing a defensive play style to reap the rewards from them. In addition, mines by their very nature are such that the probability of catching an enemy with one mine often is considerably less than 1.0, very much less.
I'd like to argue that being a support profession doesn't mean 'not killing people', it's just in a way that typically presents other people a chance to take advantage of the support profession's attack, whether that is by positive things to teammates such as crat AAO/AAD auras, heals, engi self/team blockers no matter how much you hate em or by negative things to opponents, such as shut down nanoskills or ripped reflects on opponents. This is a different sort of attack, not just 'omg i do lots of dmg so you dai', but that's not to say the support profession themselves shouldn't be able to take advantage of the same boons when dealing with opponents. The alphaing bit I agree you're correct about.
However, with any of the things described above, you can run wherever you want to and try take advantage of your toolset. With mines, a scenario could very well be 'I'll set a few mines around B and stick around, but after a minute nobody has arrived and now I'm frustrated and gonna leave for core, hope someone benefits from those mines.' That's the dull side of defensively orientated strategy and I'm not wondering why some engineers are complaining.
On a more positive note, if mines are not viewed as a fix for some current engineer issues (e.g. concerning pets and kiting) but instead as an add-on bonus, then indeed nobody is forcing you to sit back and babysit your mines.
About the mines themselves, there certainly are places where the mines would have a great effect in PvP, picture Camelot stairs / box door planted with a tight minefield, you'd have to send people to sweep those mines first (poor fellas) or risk having everyone snared and nano drained when entering the box. At least, if the mines get an AOE effect as I'm hoping for.
Hope the above describes my views in such a way that this time it'll be more understandable. You're still free to argue, though.
That might be. However, setting up a bunch of AT mines (after lugging them around for ages), digging them into hard soil is considerably less so, unless you find nice puddles of water. No digging required and won't be noticed.Setting up a claymore is fun
Last edited by eroz_c; Jan 25th, 2009 at 01:35:00.
Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
Ranged roxxorz!
Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
Funny, i believe you did just that when you tried to say i'm wrong because i'm a minority. Secondly, no i dont have a delusions of self importance, i just talk to people a lot, you know, in the game, on the live server? You should try it sometime.
Will be using , are supposed to be using, what you want to argue about who is a minority and about semanthics now? .
Battestation content, shockingly enough, is mostly directed at people who , you know, do Battlestation, not to people who do crab in backyards or who do Test Server. Your entire attempt to paint us as minority is totally uncalled for. There could be just a few of us, hell, i could be the last standing Engineer on all 3 servers who ever comes to BS , and i would still be a majority.
But of course. Let me just answer with a quote from a certain ancient chinesse wiseman.
Am i doing well, master?
=========
Last but not least, i dont hate the idea of mines as a principle. On the contrary , i agree, to some extent, depending on the implementation, perhaps its can be fun idea. But i dont see any way how it can be fun for its users. We are screaming for something to ****e things up , for a very very long time now. And we will get to plant a mine?
And, i cant stand, with visicious and burning hate, too see Engineers being once again ,used as a tool to make a game more interesting, when no one seems to care about how much fun do WE have. And dont make me start about how many test 18.0.xx patch versions have passed, and we still werent able to give any feedback. I know, small resources and all that, i can understand that very well, but perhaps you should have listen to some of us and just make it simple thrown Grenades.
I wish other professions were so willing and kindly supportive, when we try ask even for tiny improvements, but somehow it usually turns out into 150 pages flame war.
Last edited by IHaveHugeNick; Jan 25th, 2009 at 02:25:33.
big big thanks!!!!
btw while you are at it, you may consider letting froobs into the player shops. allow them to buy, but not to sell. there were many times i had to check and buy something from gms for a froob friend.
this would make the economy a bit more active but on the other hand prevents the huge item spam from them. would be beneficial to all i guess.
i'd say, be very very very careful. i smell a huge Wave of Whine incoming.
dont want to make big changes. dont touch remedy inhibitor. maybe tune down gth a little but dont change it too drastically.
imo fixers, mps and non-trox shades need a little more pvp love. meh i am already starting it... nvm
I think the point is, that while other professions get "yay fun!" tools, Engineers are getting click and forget mines. Not exactly much "fun" to be had there, now is there?
Engineers have been long wanting some kind of fun addition that hasn't involved swapping a backpack or two of gear, or an addition that has zero benefit to them and lots of benefit to others (retarded team blockers, for example) for a long time.
Incidentally Alcoydel, just to pick you up on an earlier post, not EVERYONE wanted the team blockers, I was against them being introduced when they were still on test live. With no boost to Engineer survivability yet something bumping them up on the most wanted list, with ZERO benefit to the Engineer, while overpowering heavy defense professions ALL AT THE SAME TIME, was just an epic EPIC BAD IDEA(TM).
Instead of "mines" I think Engineers should be given different kinds of throwing grenades, with an AoE splash effect, something active for the engineer to do.
Now, forgive me Engineers, I do not have an Engineer myself, so if I'm off on anything here, please correct me. Bear in mind when you're about to savage me though, I would like to see you guys have some more fun.
Just my 2c.
well it's really great to see others, other than the engi community realize how much work an engi really goes threw just to buff, also your spot on, these grenades wont cause fun, not like im going to set the mines and just sit near them would be pretty obvious? ;p anyways i've given up caring what i get on my engi, as im almost 110% sure no one on the FC team has any clue what so ever what an engi can/should do.
But i do love the grenade concept, but could be planned out better.
Devil Inside
You like the idea of mines and think it will be fun to use them? Good for you, but i dont care. I dont like the idea of Engineer content being designed only to please the others. I dont like to, once again, to be condemned to boring, dull, uninteresting activities just so other people can think game suddenly became cooler.
Engineers have been sacrificed on the altar of being useful to others for years, and frankly i'm quite tired of it.
Getting a team? Shut up and make my armor. Tower War? Shut up and warp people. Orbital Strikes? Shut up and plant jamming towers. Battlestation? Shut up and give blockers. And soon to come, shut up and plant mines.
What, you're not having any fun? Who cares, you are here to serve and be useful. Like, that towel boy who gets to prepare fresh towels to heroic captain of football team , while he gets to do all the cheerleaders.
FYI ,unlike you, i propably do speak for entire PvP Engineers community , that is THE MAJORITY of people who will be actually using this addition ingame on daily basis. If you want to self-proclaim yourself a voice of majority, be warned that only it will mean the one-person majority selected from people who spend all their time on ICC platform @ Test Server.
couldnt of said it better myself nick, tired of the bull**** here aswell.
Devil Inside
Posting Permissions
