The off/def comparison

[Ebag333]

For this list to be accurate, actual numbers would be needed. Some of those numbers (such as heals) are quite easy to come by, though they by no means consider the entire situation.

And of course then you do have the trouble of some categories like debuffs. How do you quantify how useful UBT is compared to GTH? Especially when either one of those will effect some profs far more than others. By number of available debuffs to a prof? By number of profs you can effect? By the amount of damage reduced? What about heals that don't effect damage directly (% heal debuffs, NSD, GTH, etc).

Even something as apparently simple as defense is not going to be easy. With or without procs? With a +bow/crit setup or evade focused (in the case of MP's)? Procs up or down? Fully buffed? With particular perks/nanos running, or not?

The list is only accurate in the most broad and general sense and ignores many different factors. For example it ignores the fact that many profs are heavily reliant on perks/nanos, and if they are down then they are easily munched. Engie/Soldier is last on the "def" list, yet both profs can be near impossible to kill (at least in a short period of time) and would be very near the top of the hardest profs to kill. They may have poor evades/AAD, but they have other ways of mitigating damage.


This is a far more complex topic than what is implied here.

[Chrys]

Procs are ignored throughout. MP with the suckiest AR and slow-ass weapon procs very little if at all, against anything but the bottom of the def list

The point is to demonstrate that MP without its full def is very sub-par as a profession (and keeps on slipping whenever new profs get better stuff while we get nothing). I can give you numbers on AR/def if you like. Those are the things that matter when checking whether an MP actually needs to SS or relies on luck of not being targeted (or hoping for team to save him while contributing er... removable/shortlived debuffs with huge recharge times - yes folks, if you're squishy, it's not because your profession sucks, it's because you don't team enough docs!).

But apparently, MPs were so OP'd in 2007 that having got next to nothing for over a year we're still just fine and we're the best profession ever with nothing to look forward to patch after patch thanks to profs who think we're just fine. Amazing. Not even a new trick.

P.S. Since FC have no interest in 1-on-1 balance, can we get an extremely overpowered melee alpha protection that'll help us in group pvp to not insta-die when we get called by 3 people?

[Ebag333]

MP with the suckiest AR and slow-ass weapon procs very little if at all, against anything but the bottom of the def list

That's my point exactly.

MP's have a variety of setups that can net them quite decent AR. CC with lots of +bow items is one of them. Both 1HB and 2HB can get very nice AR (while still maintaining good evades as there are many pieces that add +evades and +nanoskills such as CS).

I'm not trying to suggest that MP's will top the AR list (though I suspect that a 'trox MP with one of the 2HB sticks could get very high), or that all of those setups would be useful for PvP, but if one tried one could get higher offense than several profs listed.

Now that would limit your defense, so yes in that particular setup your defense would be below other profs. OTOH there are several setups that can add very nice evades/AAD, which puts us at a very nice defensive rating (even without SS or procs). That of course would limit your AR (at least to a certain extent).

My point still stands that you can greatly change the results of that list simply by changing the MP's setup. And it of course assume that no other profs change their setups.

Fortunately, AO isn't completely cookie cutter like other MMO's (say WoW). With WoW it's very easy to create this sort of list because the vast majority of top level people know exactly what they are using and how they will be using it. In AO setups vary drastically from person to person, depending on what their goals are. It is rather rare to find two people using the exact same setup.


Additionally, the list ignores that we can do many of the things on the list while most of the profs can only do a few. Not too many profs have decently high evades, decently high AAD, heals, debuffs, AS......

[Xtremtech]

/yawns

/raises eyebrow

Tsk.



X

[Malaxia]

I can see you put crats prior than MP, but with what setup ? I have 1400 AR with bow with a very slow proc rate (only hitting with AS), 2000 AR with remod (fastest proc rate but sucky damage) and 2400 AR with pistols (slow proc req because of being full def).

About def comparison, i'm sure you can compare Highsummoner def to most professions and find out that it's better.

[Chrys]

I can see you put crats prior than MP, but with what setup ? I have 1400 AR with bow with a very slow proc rate (only hitting with AS), 2000 AR with remod (fastest proc rate but sucky damage) and 2400 AR with pistols (slow proc req because of being full def).

In their supported setup, pistols. Remod AR doesn't count with a 750 debuff and the fact that it's built for pets to gangbang people; it is in fact effectively higher than even pistols (just the damage, including that from the pets, sucks).

About def comparison, i'm sure you can compare Highsummoner def to most professions and find out that it's better.

It's not. This here is 2.8k def. 2.9 with towers. I don't think it's physically possible for HS to have had more than that. His def was proc-reliant, if you care to read the various MP threads, and this proc reliance is only possible in the presence of squishy low-evade greens or gimps.

Ebag, that setup has 2k AR in nearly full CSS and certainly not skimping anywhere - maybe bow-faded eye, CSS pants and sureshots would take me to nearly 2.2k AR (note when comparing PVP setups, eg. doc/engy/etc, I assume they're wearing pvp gear too) at the cost of about 1.2k HP, crit resist and MC. The CS bow MP is at closer to 1.8k AR and doesn't have a capping AS. I challenge you to find any ways to siginificantly improve the AR of a bow MP to 'decent' that can catch the other profs (a decent AR would be 2.8k, though watch fixers and agents complain their AR can't hit anything) - the gulf is simply far too big these days. Though once again I expect you to make claims you haven't got a clue about and suggests why you see no urgency for improvements to the MP prof.

[Ebag333]

Ebag, that setup has 2k AR in nearly full CSS and certainly not skimping anywhere - maybe bow-faded eye, CSS pants and sureshots would take me to nearly 2.2k AR (note when comparing PVP setups, eg. doc/engy/etc, I assume they're wearing pvp gear too) at the cost of about 1.2k HP, crit resist and MC. The CS bow MP is at closer to 1.8k AR and doesn't have a capping AS. I challenge you to find any ways to siginificantly improve the AR of a bow MP to 'decent' that can catch the other profs (a decent AR would be 2.8k, though watch fixers and agents complain their AR can't hit anything) - the gulf is simply far too big these days. Though once again I expect you to make claims you haven't got a clue about and suggests why you see no urgency for improvements to the MP prof.

Profs who complain that their AR can't hit anything obviously aren't thinking of the larger picture. When they complain that that amount of AR can't hit anything, they don't meant that they can't hit anything, they mean they can't hit the AAD perked crat or the advy with evades up.

A handful of changes and you can increase your bow by almost 285 and offensive by almost another 50. You do lose 200 AAD, but gain 50 to evade/duck/dodge. So a 335 point gain for a 150 loss (over 2 to 1 ratio isn't half bad if you want to focus on AR), puts you almost 2.35k pretty easy, there's some other things you could swap to increase your AR rating though they'd be at a larger loss. So right there we're the equivalent of crats (or close enough).

Not to mention shortly we will be getting +100 bow from perks, which puts you around 2.4k-2.5k. So soon we'll be able to exceed crats instead of merely matching them.

And that doesn't even include the fact that we can also use SS to increase our AR by 200 points, which would put us into the 2.6k-2.7k AR range. That might not be to your standards of "decent", but I'd guess an increase of 700 AR would be rather "significant".

Up to where fixers/agents are? Not quite, but rather close.


/me edits

AR agents can get around 3.1k I think, while evade agents get 2.5k ar, so my setup's probably the mid range

That illustrates (yet again) my point that setups can change things drastically. With the setup above, you could easily exceed plenty of agent's AR quite easily (even without the +100 bow we're getting in 18.0).

Can we reach an AR agent? No, but an AR agent has a lot more difficult time surviving than HP/evade agent.

[Chrys]

Can you post this setup please? MP that is alphakillable is not a viable PVP setup. You really think Engies and Crats can't hit 3k if they also go into stupid lopsided AR builds?

[Ebag333]

Can you post this setup please? MP that is alphakillable is not a viable PVP setup. You really think Engies and Crats can't hit 3k if they also go into stupid lopsided AR builds?

I didn't save it. It wasn't anything special, in fact I'm sure I've missed stuff that could have added more.

It's a loss of 150 defense (200 AAD loss but 50 evades gained). And of course you would need to swap 10 perks from one line into CoLA to gain the +100 bow in 18.0.


Stupidly lopsided? I wouldn't exactly call a loss of 150 def for an addition of almost 350 AR "stupidly lopsided". Are you easier to kill? Of course, but that's a given if you focus on AR. (The opposite applies as well, you can go evade/AAD setup and have the opposite problem.) Agents have the same problem, if they want more than 2.5k AR then they are going to be giving up a lot of defense (and much much much more than 150 AAD if they want 3.1k AR).

Aside from what I've mentioned above (almost 350 AR from setup, 100 AR from 18.0 CoLA), the other 200 points comes from an existing tool that also adds defense when you're using it.

Heck, even if you didn't switch around your setup at all, you're still talking about a 300 AR increase from your setup (in 18.0) which puts you very close to crat's, and not to far behind evade/hp agents. And with zero loss you can easily switch your setup around to give you another 100-150 points of AR which puts you above crats and up around HP/evade agents. (Heck, faded bow cluster in eye alone adds 57 points.)

I challenge you to find any ways to siginificantly improve the AR of a bow MP to 'decent' that can catch the other profs (a decent AR would be 2.8k, though watch fixers and agents complain their AR can't hit anything)

Okay, so now I've shown you how to almost reach 2.8k AR with slightly hurting your defense, or how to get around 2.5k-2.6k with no significant loss in defense.

Either way you're still above crats, and you're exceeding evade/HP setup agents (which many agents choose to do to maximize their defense in PvP).

I'm pretty sure I met the requirements of your challange. No where did you specify "without stupid lopsided AR builds". (Not that I'd call a loss of 150 defense for a gain of almost 350 offense a "stupidly lopsided AR build". There's quite a bit more AAO/Bow you could eek out, but giving up much more than what I included above would quickly become stupidly lopsided.)

You can pick and choose what to include in your list, but the fact remains that it has some pretty serious flaws and gaps in it. I just showed you how a Tigress MP could easily exceed agents, which bumps MP's up a minimum of three places on your list.

Of course, if we're in the middle of the list, that doesn't make MP's look so bad, does it?

[Chrys]

Post the setup. All I see is words, not even mentioning what items are swapped around.

P.S. What's your AR? What's your evades/AAD?

But relying on casting SS on self all the time, that's a funny thought, coming from you Obviously the setup has to be viable in PVP, that's what this whole thread is about. And AR agents are built for gank and kite, so you know. It's one type of PVP, but agents for the most part are pretty nerfed and could use love (they whine way more than us, at least ).

[Ebag333]

Post the setup. All I see is words, not even mentioning what items are swapped around.

P.S. What's your AR? What's your evades/AAD?

Switch to full CSS (or CC). Except for sureshot glasses. Add in the eye implant you should be using now if you want AR. Swap some of the HUD/Util items from defensive to Alb items.

Like I said, not hard to do. I'm sure I missed items that I didn't think of off the top of my head that'd further improve it. Though I guess you didn't want to put in the effort to try and figure it out.....



My AR sucks right now. Of course I'm actually partially perk reset (and moving back into full perk reset for 18.0). I'm typically around 2k AR though when I'm not perk reset. Of course that depends on my exact setup-of-the-moment, and includes only one piece of CSS (at the most). I have no doubt I could be in the the 2.6+k range from setup alone though that would reduce my defenses some. If I was satisfied with 2.4k(ish, probably a bit more) then I could do so with very little loss (if any) to defense though I'd lose a significant amount of nano AR.

And of course neither of those include SS, so figure 2.6k to 2.8k with those setups if I use SS. I could probably get close to 3k, though that'd significantly hurt my defenses and wouldn't be worth it IMHO. (Same problem agents face trying to get to 3.1k AR.)


As for defense, mine is fairly close to what you posted above (around 2.8k, no towers). I have fair amount of room for improvement there however.

[Chrys]

Switch to full CSS (or CC). Except for sureshot glasses. Add in the eye implant you should be using now if you want AR. Swap some of the HUD/Util items from defensive to Alb items.

lol full CSS is +30bow/15 AAO off my setup - only pants. You noticed the 75 bow on ofab chest yet? This is exactly why I asked you for a setup, because you're making numbers up. Sureshots is 80 Bow, already factored that in. Improved Manual Aiming aid is 50 bow. That gives 175 bow AR - 2.2k. SS self is 2.4k. Sorry not only did you just open yourself to perkstun alpha from fixers and agents (they can already do that without SS up, btw) and you just let the MA alpha get way nastier, but you still can't hit anything. You want to put in Combat HUDs too? xD

Like I said, not hard to do. I'm sure I missed items that I didn't think of off the top of my head that'd further improve it. Though I guess you didn't want to put in the effort to try and figure it out.....

No you made the claim, I'm asking you to back it up.

My AR sucks right now. Of course I'm actually partially perk reset (and moving back into full perk reset for 18.0). I'm typically around 2k AR though when I'm not perk reset. Of course that depends on my exact setup-of-the-moment, and includes only one piece of CSS (at the most). I have no doubt I could be in the the 2.6+k range from setup alone though that would reduce my defenses some. If I was satisfied with 2.4k(ish, probably a bit more) then I could do so with very little loss (if any) to defense though I'd lose a significant amount of nano AR.

Setup please. I'd like a rough idea of how much off/def tradeoff we're talking about.

And of course neither of those include SS, so figure 2.6k to 2.8k with those setups if I use SS. I could probably get close to 3k, though that'd significantly hurt my defenses and wouldn't be worth it IMHO.

See above

(Same problem agents face trying to get to 3.1k AR.)

Can we get CH too please? You realise the difference is exponential because the more profs can perk us, the faster we die, at an exponential rate? We're not agents who can CH/kite off our shortcomings. The magic number is 2.9k def (3.1 with SS), you can see it for yourself if you bothered to test it with PVPers. 2.8k is still very squishy, 2.7k and you are pretty much reliant on not-being-targeted or kiting to "PVP". That's the fact. Where you are currently in terms of def is a big deal for MPs. Losing 100 AAD from a starting point of 3.1k def is completely different from losing the same amount from 2.8k, because you have to see where the bulk of your opponents' ARs are at.

Edit: And as of the next patch, you're expecting us to waste 16 perks into AR which isn't how MPs work, just to get a mediocre AR that will be pretty much useless? No profession has to make that much sacrifice for that little AR.

[Ebag333]

lol full CSS is +30bow/15 AAO off my setup - only pants. You noticed the 75 bow on ofab chest yet?

Your right, the setup would include the MP chest. But it would also include CSS head instead of MP head. Guess I missed mentioning one item, and you missed one.

This is exactly why I asked you for a setup, because you're making numbers up.

Funny you say that. Because I just showed, as per the agent professional (and from asking other agents) that an HP/evade agent (in other words a more PvP setup agent) is around 2400 AR, and your average agent (PvP and PvM balanced) is going to be around 2600-2700 AR.

Malaxia posted showing that crats are 2400 AR or less.

Your list is not accurate. Yet I'm the one making up numbers?

No you made the claim, I'm asking you to back it up.

Fine. Because you're obviously too lazy to do your own work, and just so that everyone can see that I'm handing you your next setup on a silver platter.

And because I did it quick and dirty, I did round the numbers for simplicity. But here's the actual numbers.

Your posted setup:

Offense modifier	260
Bow	702

Defense modifier	1100
Duck explosives	430
Dodge ranged	480
Evade close	470

Modified setup:

Offense modifier	285
Bow	979

Defense modifier	895
Duck explosives	450
Dodge ranged	580
Evade close	570

Difference:

Offense modifier	+25
Bow	+277

Defense modifier	-205
Duck explosives	+20
Dodge ranged	+100
Evade close	+100

So actually, I did make a mistake. It only adds 302 AR while reducing your defenses by 105. That's almost a 3 to 1 ratio (not a 2 to 1 ratio as I originally said). I had originally said a 335 point gain for a 150 loss.


Thanks Chrys for making me redo the setup! I never would have spotted my error without it!

Setup please. I'd like a rough idea of how much off/def tradeoff we're talking about.

Nope. Figure out your own setup if you want to do pistols.

If you want to claim that I'm making up numbers, fine. But don't accuse me of lying, then turn around and ask for my setup. Guess you'll just have to believe me, or go and figure it out yourself.





Finally, nowhere did I claim that changing the setup and reducing your defenses would be the smart choice or even a good choice. I've merely shown that it's possible to do, and even shown that it's not that large of a loss to your defense.

Lets remember your original statement:

I challenge you to find any ways to siginificantly improve the AR of a bow MP to 'decent' that can catch the other profs (a decent AR would be 2.8k, though watch fixers and agents complain their AR can't hit anything)

You asked me to improve it. I did. No where did you say "improve it without losing any defense" (though I did that too).



And of course, lets look back a few posts at one of your original claims:

Ebag, that setup has 2k AR in nearly full CSS and certainly not skimping anywhere - maybe bow-faded eye, CSS pants and sureshots would take me to nearly 2.2k AR (note when comparing PVP setups, eg. doc/engy/etc, I assume they're wearing pvp gear too) at the cost of about 1.2k HP, crit resist and MC.

Heck, I've even shown that your claimed AR numbers for MP are completely off base without reducing your defense significantly (or even at all). You can add 250 (257 to be exact) to that setup today, and 350 once 18.0 hits. So even without losing any defense that puts us the equivalent of crats and many PvP agents.

Funny how you say I know nothing about PvP, yet you don't even know where different profs AR actually is, or even how to increase your own AR past 2k without giving up anything.

I may not know everything there is to know about every prof, but when I don't know something I go out and ask the people who do know (such as when I asked Ebon what agents AR is).


So now that I've posted the setup I used to show how to increase AR, are you going to bump MP's on your list above crats/engies/docs and put us on the same level as Agent/fixer/NT? I'm guessing not.

[Ebag333]

Where MPs stand in terms of Offense and Defense against the other 13 profs (very roughly, assuming all are top-geared)

Highest to lowest AR:
Soldier/enf (some enfs are more def based, could be lower down)
Adv/MA/shade/trader (trader varies ofc, this would be fully drained)
Agent/fixer/NT (not like NTs need AR)
Crat/engy
Doc
MP
SoZ MP - no weapon = you are bottom xD

Highest to lowest Def:
Fixer
SoZ MP
Crat
Adv/MA
Enf/Keep
NT/Trader/SS'd MP
Non-SS'd MP/agent
Doc
Sold/Engy

Spoke with Axela, the Trader Professional about where they rank.

This was what he said:

Ebagmp: hey, question
Ebagmp: what's a typical PvP traders AR and defense, drained but without procs
Axela: hmm
Axela: 3.2
Ebagmp: 3.2 AR?
Axela: around there yea
Ebagmp: and what about without drains?
Axela: normally a trader will have 2.5 AR static
Axela: for pvp trader that incorporates AR in their setup though
Ebagmp: and what about defense?
Axela: defence well the best one can get is close to 3k maybe
Axela: it all depends on setup really
Ebagmp: ofc
Axela: 2.5-3k
Ebagmp: mind if I quote you on that?
Axela: sure if u like

For the list to be accurate, traders should really be moved into their own group (shades for example are only around 2.9k AR). Or maybe some in that group should be moved down.

And for defense they should be moved to be equal to a non-SS MP's defense, and below an MP with SS up.

[Chrys]

Um. That gives you 2.3k AR with a loss of 2k HP, 1.5k AC (that's 150 damage per hit more - this matters when you consider melee alpha consists of lots of small hits, and when you'll be hit by regulars) and 100 AAD (yes, I know there was 100 AAD loss, that's why I preempted it by talking about what it means when you're sitting at 2.8k AR). That's not a pvp setup, that's a PVM setup that makes you alpha-able to everyone except profs that don't have an alpha. It would be below hp agents in terms of def by this point (and look at them complain about how easy to perk/hit they are ).

I didn't ask crats and engies to sacrifice their def for AR in the comparison, and I'm certainly not asking MPs either. Anyone who talks about MP pvp setups knows that you put AAD/evade items (and some HP) wherever you can afford it, or you go squish and be the pre-LE version of useless. That's why you've been talking apples and oranges from the beginning, and why you still don't get it. If you're not talking about PVP setups, then you're just trolling and yapping about to listen to the sound of your own voice

P.S. Axela is my orgmate - doesn't have the top gear (I can't remember if she's wearing CSS) afaik, hasn't been active for nearly a year or more (correct me if I'm wrong), last time I know she was working on her toon - in short, not top-end like the numbers. Why do you ask inactive players instead of PVPers like Thymo and Badeggs? 3k def also has a much different complexion to a MP's 3k def when they are draining people for 250 AR.

[Ebag333]

I didn't ask crats and engies to sacrifice their def for AR in the comparison, and I'm certainly not asking MPs either.

Funny. Yet you ask agents to sacrifice their PvP setup to get 2.8k AR for your comparison. Not to mention you still ignore the fact that MP's can get equivalent AR to crats and PvP setup agents without losing any defense (and in fact gaining some), yet MP's are listed below them.

And I didn't ask Axela how Axela was setup. Maybe you should reread that part.


Your list is obviously skewed for the sole purpose of making MP's appear to be worse off than they are. You're having a hard time trying to make excuses for hard actual numbers here, and your responses show.

The sad part is that your list would be rather interesting if it was accurate. It only shows part of the picture, but still interesting. Of course to be accurate, it'd need some actual hard numbers, none of which you have provided and for the ones that have been provided you simply ignore or try and pretend that they're unusable for one reason or another.

[Chrys]

Funny. Yet you ask agents to sacrifice their PvP setup to get 2.8k AR for your comparison. Not to mention you still ignore the fact that MP's can get equivalent AR to crats and PvP setup agents without losing any defense (and in fact gaining some), yet MP's are listed below them.

Actually, show me the setup. I had 2.8k as a standard for fixers and agents because I know this to be approximately where they are from the several PVP agents and fixers that I know (ask Lupus, Biggy, Pheddex, etc.). I always ask PVPers I duel/meet on BS etc. what their AR/def is once I get to know them. Of course there's different builds for agents, but a full def agent is going the same route as a full def MP and agents have a variety of viable PVP setups, with the balance coming around 2.8k - only with slightly less evades but CH - so 2.5k vs 1.8k in full def build is a like-with-like comparison between Def MP and Def Agent (~700 pts difference). If you want to go HP/AR agent or pure gank agent (this presumably is the role closest to the full CSS tigress MP), the AR is way higher by over 1k difference.

You are asking to compare full AR MP with full def agent, which is nonsensical.

And I didn't ask Axela how Axela was setup. Maybe you should reread that part.

Maybe you should ask Thymo and Badgenes.

The sad part is that your list would be rather interesting if it was accurate. It only shows part of the picture, but still interesting. Of course to be accurate, it'd need some actual hard numbers, none of which you have provided and for the ones that have been provided you simply ignore or try and pretend that they're unusable for one reason or another.

I've asked around with plenty of PVPers so I know for sure they are relatively correct. You just have to find the various epeen threads to see them boast their stats to find it... being a forum troll that reads everything helps xD

[Ebag333]

Actually, show me the setup.

Nope. You lost your asking for setup right, exactly at the moment when you accused me of lying.

Of course there's different builds for agents, but a full def agent is going the same route as a full def MP and agents have a variety of viable PVP setups, with the balance coming around 2.8k - only with slightly less evades but CH - so 2.5k vs 1.8k in full def build is a like-with-like comparison between Def MP and Def Agent (~700 pts difference). If you want to go HP/AR agent or pure gank agent (this presumably is the role closest to the full CSS tigress MP), the AR is way higher by over 1k difference.

You are asking to compare full AR MP with full def agent, which is nonsensical.

And here we go again with you ignoring the numbers.

If a 2.4-2.5k AR MP is "full AR", then I guess an MP which can break 2.7k AR would be....what? Because I've already shown how you can do exactly that with minimal loss.

Except I guess you expect every other prof to be able to have full AR setups and full def setups counted in your list.

I've asked around with plenty of PVPers so I know for sure they are relatively correct. You just have to find the various epeen threads to see them boast their stats to find it... being a forum troll that reads everything helps xD

Great. Lets include Highsummoner's epeen thread in here then. I mean, since you're including other prof's epeen threads.



*sigh*

You claim you know everything there is to know about PvP, yet fail to realize that you can easily break 2k AR with your setup and no loss. You fail to realize that 2.7 AR is achievable with very minimal loss (certainly far less loss than a 3k+ AR setup agent would have).

You ignore actual hard numbers that are posted or pretend that they are somehow different than what they are. Sorry, didn't realize that you as an MP know better than anyone else playing their prof.

You claim Axela (and myself) is inactive....and yet we hold an ingame conversation about this topic while you...do whatever it is you do while your AO account is canceled.

You continue to launch personal attacks and digs at people.

You pretend your list is accurate when in fact it is anything but, and has some glaring problems with it (such as ignoring multiple setups, or available tools that professions have).

(Did I mention that for engies 2.7k Pistol AR is readily achievable without QL300 symbs, full set of combined armor, or many of the available HUD/Util items out there? [AR of a PvM setup engie in my org.] A fully setup engie would have more AR than say a Shade, and probably very close to what a fully drained trader would have, putting them quite high on the AR list while you have them near the bottom. Oops.)

It's become blatantly obvious that you are going to /ignore anything that doesn't fit exactly with the way you think things should work. Even when people post hard numbers showing exactly where you are wrong.




I'm done with this thread.

[Chrys]

It's because you don't PVP enough to see that losing 100 AAD and 2k HP from a standpoint of an MP is game breaking (12k HP + 2.6/7k def with defenses all spread around not amounting to alot - you may as well be 216 again unless you run around with SS up all the time... which well is something you accuse people of being noobs for doing), whereas gaining 300 AR is of marginal benefit.

You claim you know everything there is to know about PvP,

Where?

yet fail to realize that you can easily break 2k AR with your setup and no loss.

Nonsense, there is a significant loss.

You fail to realize that 2.7 AR is achievable with very minimal loss (certainly far less loss than a 3k+ AR setup agent would have).

lol.

You ignore actual hard numbers that are posted or pretend that they are somehow different than what they are. Sorry, didn't realize that you as an MP know better than anyone else playing their prof.

As I said, the mass of average player's ARs is the sweetspot. MP has to be above that or be alpha-able to even the sucky toons and gimps. Your setup places MP straight in that zone. But you don't know anything about what most people's ARs are at so you can't see this straight away.

You claim Axela (and myself) is inactive....and yet we hold an ingame conversation about this topic while you...do whatever it is you do while your AO account is canceled.

Was inactive for over 6 months - closer to a year with the occasional logging in to say hi, and must have come back in the last two weeks. Oh btw, Axela has a setup very very similar to mine in fact, just saw it >< ...and has 500 more AR than me pre-drained. lol, Ebag still clutching for straws?

You continue to launch personal attacks and digs at people.

So do you and shadowgod. Tho I think SG is just smoking stuff as of his last post

You pretend your list is accurate when in fact it is anything but, and has some glaring problems with it (such as ignoring multiple setups, or available tools that professions have).

It's a generalisation, as with all generalisations, you can find exceptions if you set out to do so. But the general idea is correct.

(Did I mention that for engies 2.7k Pistol AR is readily achievable without QL300 symbs, full set of combined armor, or many of the available HUD/Util items out there? [AR of a PvM setup engie in my org.] A fully setup engie would have more AR than say a Shade, and probably very close to what a fully drained trader would have, putting them quite high on the AR list while you have them near the bottom. Oops.)

See what I mean?

It's become blatantly obvious that you are going to /ignore anything that doesn't fit exactly with the way you think things should work. Even when people post hard numbers showing exactly where you are wrong.

No, your numbers only show you're a great paper PeeVeePeer because that 2k HP and 100 AAD loss opens you up to the entire world perking you, from the greenies and the gimps to everyone else. This is why you need to PVP more and talk less.

2.7k def/12k HP is, well... what lowbie MPs have. I don't need to remind you how squishy that is given your huge pvp experience right?

I'm done with this thread.

Ok.

[Alexiouss]

Actually pets are included. That's why MPs have some heals and why our alpha isn't worse than a crat's (who have 2 pets and 2xMB with better AR than our pet). And Rihwen's AR at 2.2k or so is pretty much where a doc's is, so given our sucky bow AR (1.9-2k), it's still correct.

You are right, SoZ reflects arent included. Nor is our pet's def, which is abysmal. Nor is Mongo Rage, which would jack up a fair few profs significantly. Nor is coon, which only NMs have. But the general position is about right.

Where do docs get almost 2.2k AR?