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Thread: The off/def comparison

  1. #1

    The off/def comparison

    Where MPs stand in terms of Offense and Defense against the other 13 profs (very roughly, assuming all are top-geared)

    Highest to lowest AR:
    Soldier/enf (some enfs are more def based, could be lower down)
    Adv/MA/shade/trader (trader varies ofc, this would be fully drained)
    Agent/fixer/NT (not like NTs need AR)
    Crat/engy
    Doc
    MP
    SoZ MP - no weapon = you are bottom xD

    Highest to lowest Def:
    Fixer
    SoZ MP
    Crat
    Adv/MA
    Enf/Keep
    NT/Trader/SS'd MP
    Non-SS'd MP/agent
    Doc
    Sold/Engy

    Heals:
    Doc
    Adv
    Keeper/Agent (PVP wise)
    MA/enf/trader
    Fixer/MP/shade
    Engy
    Sold
    Crat/NT (none)

    Alpha:
    MA/shade
    Melee adv/enf/keeper/NT/sold/agent
    Fixer/engy (some engies lower with the trader/crats)/ranged advy
    Trader/Bow MP/crat
    Doc/Pistol MP
    1hb MP (lol)
    SoZ MP (lol)

    Debuffs:
    GTH - traders
    CB - NTs
    Drains - traders/shades
    Roots/snares - NT/trader/agent/crat/fixer
    UBT - docs/agents
    (E)NSD - MPs
    RI - solds
    ...

    Going by any metric you want to choose, MPs are below average in just about everything. Several are better than MP in nearly every category.

    No this isn't a MP is the nerfest prof thread. It's saying this is why we are SS/proc reliant if we want to PVP on an even level with others.
    Last edited by Chrys; Dec 20th, 2008 at 00:58:07.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  2. #2
    Not whining but it depends on who you are fighting with when listing debuffs, if you ask me. Like eNSD, GTH is /terminate for nano-using proffs. While Roots and Snares can easly be removed.
    since 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    FYI: Cola burns when it comes out your nose...I now know this because of you.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskarin View Post
    Not whining but it depends on who you are fighting with when listing debuffs, if you ask me. Like eNSD, GTH is /terminate for nano-using proffs. While Roots and Snares can easly be removed.
    True. It's very much dependent on who you're fighting, but overall, it's generally a matter of "can it be removed or kited out?" as a general principle.

    ENSD can be removed instantly, or with a BS scanner and at 15 seconds can also be kited out if all else fails. So it's effectiveness is minimal to any half-decent PVPer (yes, I still get funny tells from PVPer friends about Electronite's ENSD if lands gameover claims a year ago - especially when I try to land it on them ).
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  4. #4
    Seems to me you choose what data to present to create a certain impression. You exclude a lot of stuff that affects an MPs offence & defense, not talking straight AR/Def rating here, but stuff that certainly affect your offensive/defensive capabilities. Like you dont even include pets as part of your offence or reflects as part of SoZ MPs defense.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Fifty50 View Post
    Seems to me you choose what data to present to create a certain impression. You exclude a lot of stuff that affects an MPs offence & defense, not talking straight AR/Def rating here, but stuff that certainly affect your offensive/defensive capabilities. Like you dont even include pets as part of your offence or reflects as part of SoZ MPs defense.
    Actually pets are included. That's why MPs have some heals and why our alpha isn't worse than a crat's (who have 2 pets and 2xMB with better AR than our pet). And Rihwen's AR at 2.2k or so is pretty much where a doc's is, so given our sucky bow AR (1.9-2k), it's still correct.

    You are right, SoZ reflects arent included. Nor is our pet's def, which is abysmal. Nor is Mongo Rage, which would jack up a fair few profs significantly. Nor is coon, which only NMs have. But the general position is about right.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  6. #6
    ...and you're wanting MPs to be the top of each of those lists?

    Level 1 to 300 in 8 Years! Pwn!
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskarin View Post
    Like eNSD, GTH is /terminate for nano-using proffs. While Roots and Snares can easly be removed.
    You can't put eNSD and GTH in the same sentence like that and you know it.

    P.S.
    Chrys, about heals, engies have BioR so they deserve to be in front of soldiers.
    Proud member of Shadow Ops
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP setup
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    You won.
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  8. #8
    ENSD is removable by the profs that really suffers from it.
    ᖧ-Flynicist-ᖨ
    Grenade

    Rushing where angels fear to tread.

  9. #9
    Your list is off on quite a few points, which generally tends to be the case with such broad comparisons

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    ...and you're wanting MPs to be the top of each of those lists?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    Your list is off on quite a few points, which generally tends to be the case with such broad comparisons
    Such as?
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    No.
    allright, so you want MPs to be the bottom of each list then.

    Level 1 to 300 in 8 Years! Pwn!
    - Join us on Discord! -
    AO WIKI!
    Arcanum!


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    allright, so you want MPs to be the bottom of each list then.
    No.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    No.
    so.. you just threw together some random stats that you dont even know what to do with.

    Level 1 to 300 in 8 Years! Pwn!
    - Join us on Discord! -
    AO WIKI!
    Arcanum!


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    allright, so you want MPs to be the bottom of each list then.
    Yes, clearly there are only two options: 1. Top of all lists or 2. Bottom of all lists.

    *shaking head*
    Last edited by Gurudeva; Dec 20th, 2008 at 08:49:35.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    so.. you just threw together some random stats that you dont even know what to do with.
    It only looks random to someone who doesn't have a tl7.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurudeva View Post
    Yes, clearly there are only two options: 1. Top of all lists or 2. Bottom of all lists.

    *shaking head*
    Rnt our profs GR8?? xD

    SG, please google false dichotomy k?? xD
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    It only looks random to someone who doesn't have a tl7.
    so you still agree, you dont know what you want the data to represent.

    Level 1 to 300 in 8 Years! Pwn!
    - Join us on Discord! -
    AO WIKI!
    Arcanum!


  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    so you still agree, you dont know what you want the data to represent.
    Read op plx.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    Read op plx.
    i did. you just gave random data. which far as any person could assume and Xtrem might (just might...) agree with... it shows we're about where we should be.

    Level 1 to 300 in 8 Years! Pwn!
    - Join us on Discord! -
    AO WIKI!
    Arcanum!


  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    i did. you just gave random data. which far as any person could assume and Xtrem might (just might...) agree with... it shows we're about where we should be.
    lol ok. All the tl7 MPs thank you for your feedback.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  20. #20
    Where is Klod when you need him?



    Edit:
    Oh there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Klod View Post
    You can't put eNSD and GTH in the same sentence like that and you know it.

    P.S.
    Chrys, about heals, engies have BioR so they deserve to be in front of soldiers.
    since 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    FYI: Cola burns when it comes out your nose...I now know this because of you.

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