Bow Spec Attack discussion

[Xtremtech]

I have a question too: Does its attack Vs Defence check work like perk special attacks? Or is it less black and white like older specials or normal hits?

X

[Ebag333]

I have a question too: Does its attack Vs Defence check work like perk special attacks? Or is it less black and white like older specials or normal hits?

X

No! Questions are not allowed!

Xtrem, it works like gumboils. Even with vs 20% dodge it can miss.

Yup, Chrys has the right of it. It works just like any other weapon.

[Chrys]

lol just remembered... Whoever said Bow Spec in PVM is a bloody liar. Ice Arrows are PVP only, the rest of the arrows are rubbish pre-SL crap.

[Racatti]

I have a question too: Does its attack Vs Defence check work like perk special attacks? Or is it less black and white like older specials or normal hits?

X

It works like a perk, bow spec+AAO vs 20% dodge+AAD.

Is good **** to finish off that pesky adv trying to run away from you.

[Flynicist]

Imo, those arrows should be poison dmg ;p

[Chrys]

Imo, those arrows should be poison dmg ;p

No we obviously need Spit of Lost Frog - Poison Arrows that locks swimming and has a 2k, 5 tick poison dot and -500 rs snare ><

this would be our engy killer oO

[Flynicist]

No we obviously need Spit of Lost Frog - Poison Arrows that locks swimming and has a 2k, 5 tick poison dot and -500 rs snare ><

this would be our engy killer oO

Why frog?

[Ebag333]

Off topic posts have been split into their own thread.

It works like a perk, bow spec+AAO vs 20% dodge+AAD.

Actually it doesn't work like a perk. It's considered a weapon, like Sharp objects, grenades, or thrown weapons.

Even if your opponent has very low AAD/Dodge, and you have very high bow spec and AAO, you are not guaranteed to hit. Perks work on a hit/miss type method, in other words you will always hit or always miss all else being equal. With weapons you can miss even if you *SHOULD* hit (by a large margin).

I seem to recall something like you have a 5% guaranteed miss rate and a 5% guaranteed hit rate with weapons. In other words, regardless of your skill you will always occasionally miss or always occasionally hit.

[Xtremtech]

3% base miss rate I think.

Yup, weapons are more of a grey area. You might hit a few times even if the odds are against you.

The black and white nature of the perk calc is one of the root issues in PvP. Given a set defence and attack level, you'll either always hit or always miss - which means that anything but a level of defence above a certain point is pointless... and anything below a certain attack skill level is pointless.

With the older weapons style, then you still gain some benefit. The more the odds are stacked against you, the less likely you are to hit, but you'll still hit some.

X

[Chrys]

lol base rate %miss has been removed since 17.10. That's why soldier FA is so $%#ing OP now and all the keepers and enfs are crying.

I don't see why you're wasting time on Bow Spec Attack, it's nice to have but with only one supported item in the game and a 20% check already, this is a nice example of throwing your energies into inconsequential areas, demonstrating how out of touch you are in PVP or game mechanics.

Why frog?

Because Rihwen is obviously french. He's green, smells like garlic and runs the wrong way all the time

j/k j/k <3 Flyni

[Ebag333]

I don't see why you're wasting time on Bow Spec Attack, it's nice to have but with only one supported item in the game and a 20% check already, this is a nice example of throwing your energies into inconsequential areas, demonstrating how out of touch you are in PVP or game mechanics.

First off, you never know what's coming down the pike, as they say.

Secondly, I'm hardly throwing my "energies" into inconsequential areas. I've spent all of 5 minutes posting about this, and maybe another 5 talking to Metaing about it. I'd hardly call 10 minutes throwing my energies into it.

If it's an area where we can get more support, then we can have the choice of having a fair chance at landing on profs we had trouble (or perhaps even couldn't) before, or spending less IP on it.

You yourself say that you are considering maxing it (and imply you have IP spent in it). I suppose that's a nice example of throwing your IP into inconsequential areas, right?

I don't have it maxed (I might max, but not until I get some clear vision of where we're going, very careful about IP since I used up my full IPR).

Sorry for trying to actually get some improvements into an area which some people do use, can be rather nice in specific instances for PvP, and is currently lacking in much (any?) support.

[Xtremtech]

Hadn't spotted the miss rate removal. Interesting that they should finally have done that.

Doesn't change the point though... which is that with weapons/nukes your rate of hit will increase gradually with your skill Vs a given defender - whereas with perks your rate of hit is virtually 100% or 0% based around a given attack skill point Vs a given defender.

X

[Chrys]

First off, you never know what's coming down the pike, as they say.

Hope is the easiest thing to sell

Secondly, I'm hardly throwing my "energies" into inconsequential areas. I've spent all of 5 minutes posting about this, and maybe another 5 talking to Metaing about it. I'd hardly call 10 minutes throwing my energies into it.

Funny, you claimed this was one of the things you were "working on" earlier. Good to know exactly how much effort you consider work.

If it's an area where we can get more support, then we can have the choice of having a fair chance at landing on profs we had trouble (or perhaps even couldn't) before, or spending less IP on it.

It won't make a diff. Those we can land it on, we'll continue to land it on. Those that we can't, we won't be able to. IP savings are hardly a concern if you're saving IP to try to avoid IPRing but then you need to IPR to get that IP saving

You yourself say that you are considering maxing it (and imply you have IP spent in it). I suppose that's a nice example of throwing your IP into inconsequential areas, right?

See above.

Sorry for trying to actually get some improvements into an area which some people do use, can be rather nice in specific instances for PvP, and is currently lacking in much (any?) support.

Better to focus on general support to the MP profession, than worry about an obscure aspect that's working just fine as it is, wouldn't you say?

P.S. Please don't get it added to support brain. Please. MA alpha is bad enough as is.

[Xtremtech]

Oh my dear lord, can you not just take a break from harping on Chrys? You're seriously just looking for ways to attack him in every sentence he writes wether it makes sense or not. You seem small minded and not at all to be taken serious when you behave this way.

Posting ideas to a professional forum, managing a discussion in the MP forum and talking directly to one of the Devs would certainly count as working on something. It doesn't take a huge amount of time to do it - and certainly doesn't stop him from working on other issues too. What else would you suggest that he do to 'work on' an issue as a professional by the way?

You've reached the point now, where your determination to make a negative point out of virtually everything he says, means that you end up virtually contradicting yourself half the time. On the one hand, he's not really applying his energies - but on the other he's spending too much time on a trivial issue. On the one hand, you'd want to max IP in it - on the other hand it's pointless.

There are plenty of other examples recently of you doing this kind of thing. Perhaps your own time would be better spent lobbying for your own issues rather than bitchily going after one of the profs and making yourself look unpleasant and petty in the process.

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[Chrys]

Oh my dear lord, can you not just take a break from harping on Chrys? You're seriously just looking for ways to attack him in every sentence he writes wether it makes sense or not. You seem small minded and not at all to be taken serious when you behave this way.

Does this count as a personal attack? I'm as frustrated with Ebag as you are with me. Well.

Posting ideas to a professional forum, managing a discussion in the MP forum and talking directly to one of the Devs would certainly count as working on something. It doesn't take a huge amount of time to do it - and certainly doesn't stop him from working on other issues too. What else would you suggest that he do to 'work on' an issue as a professional by the way?

It's his own words. He contradicted himself, I just pointed it out.

You've reached the point now, where your determination to make a negative point out of virtually everything he says, means that you end up virtually contradicting yourself half the time. On the one hand, he's not really applying his energies - but on the other he's spending too much time on a trivial issue. On the one hand, you'd want to max IP in it - on the other hand it's pointless.

Because Bow Spec Attack is working just fine as it is, and IP savings won't make a bit of difference given the need for an IPR?

There are plenty of other examples recently of you doing this kind of thing. Perhaps your own time would be better spent lobbying for your own issues rather than bitchily going after one of the profs and making yourself look unpleasant and petty in the process.

You'll see I already post far more in Game Suggestions than in MP forums.

[Klodovik]

This is so pointless, since FC likes to do stuff their way anyways...

Me: Hey, FC! Can you pass me that hammer please? I have to nail this painting to the wall.

FC: *hands over the crowbar"

Me: No, no! Not that. That wooden stick thingie with heavy piece of metal on one side.

FC: *hands over large, two handed, double bladed axe*

Me: *facepalm*

[Racatti]

Off topic posts have been split into their own thread.





Actually it doesn't work like a perk. It's considered a weapon, like Sharp objects, grenades, or thrown weapons.

Even if your opponent has very low AAD/Dodge, and you have very high bow spec and AAO, you are not guaranteed to hit. Perks work on a hit/miss type method, in other words you will always hit or always miss all else being equal. With weapons you can miss even if you *SHOULD* hit (by a large margin).

I seem to recall something like you have a 5% guaranteed miss rate and a 5% guaranteed hit rate with weapons. In other words, regardless of your skill you will always occasionally miss or always occasionally hit.

3% chance on hit/miss/fumble/counter/open/disarm/base crit/etc. has been removed from the game.

[Ebag333]

3% chance on hit/miss/fumble/counter/open/disarm/base crit/etc. has been removed from the game.

Doesn't change the point though... which is that with weapons/nukes your rate of hit will increase gradually with your skill Vs a given defender - whereas with perks your rate of hit is virtually 100% or 0% based around a given attack skill point Vs a given defender.

X

Guess you missed that post.

[Racatti]

Guess you never used alb arrows, they are indeed 100% hit or miss like perks, only without a cooldown if you can't land it.

[Chrys]

Yeah, perks are modelled off old Sharp-Obj style items. However, there seems to be a small variant that is usually too little to notice - sometimes, for example, my tl3 agent can occasionally land CA on 75 conductors (I've never had it land on 100s yet). But usually I can't land CA (it always lands on turrets though - I've never had it miss a CA on turrets, even ql100s). I don't know whether this is because conductors have some kind of randomized stats (given the existence of "crit" towers, this is possible - however, I haven't noticed any correlation between landing CA and crit towers - it's just random it appears), or because there is a small roll involved (but probably inconsequential these days, given the amounts of aad and aao are so varied).

But yes, it works like perks. And assuming that towers don't have variations in stats, there is probably a very small roll involved, usually too tiny to be noticed, especially at TL7. I'm pretty certain I've had Ice arrows miss against toons they really shouldn't - I think because I haven't had it maxed, I might be in the "zone" where the roll can make a difference. But I don't really think you can call it working like a weapon.

I haven't done any kind of extensive testing on it, though my agent has killed a lot of tl3 towers ><