Answer to Jim Salabim's explanation on range nerf

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by Chillaxer
[B"We could also allow players and monsters to see wider than their current 9 "fields", but this would also seriously decrease your performance."

I love this idea(people dont upgrade their computers for nothing) [/B]

It's not just the client computer that would have to handle the strain of widening or increasing the number of field data sent to the client. All that data has to get to your computer before anything can happen so you had better have a cable or DSL modem. The servers and their connection to the internet would have to be able to handle the increased amount of data as well. Remember any increase in data sent is multiplied by the number of people connected at one time. Any solution really can't involve sending a lot more data.

The more I think about it the more I like my previous the idea that if a mob can't find you, it simply runs in your general direction until it gets within range. If it still can't find you after a period of time it just gives up and would regen HPs at an increased rate.

Players could get in a long range shot but would also have to make sure that the mob could find them before it gives up.

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by Marssss


hehe, let FC try to implement the conceal/perception first...(i think we gonna rofl if they do it : first it will not work as intented as usual, then new tactics will appear)

Actually now that you mention it, this is a great way to implement Sneaking and Conceal in PvP. Every player would have a targeting radius. If you were outside that area you couldn't target them or see them on your map. Sneaking would be like a buff to your conceal and would lower that range even further. An opposing players' perception would have the opposite effect and would increase that targeting radius.

Now if you attack someone and they are not in your targeting range they won't auto target you and will only be given a direction to where the attack came from. You would also not appear on their map.

So an agent using conceal would have a very low targeting radius. Their goal would be to get an aimed shot and move before a player could find them. If they were wearing a cloaking device at night and had the cover of a forest or thich grass, a good agent could seem to be invisible during their entire fight.

[Johnfredone]

If i remember right plants have different rules to range vs mobs that can move. It was way back when the devs were talking about that and NTs could kill them with out getting attacked so they increased the range plants can attack.

[______________Mascot]

They may have increased plant range, but they didn't increase them to max visible distance. You could still outrange them easily with just a hardware range extender.

The plants weren't the major issue with FC though for this nerf. There were limited plants around and plenty of faster ways to get xp. It was beyond visual distance targetting with mobs not hitting back. And the fix would've been so simple (break target lock once the mob could no longer perceive you). Instead they capped range at 40m and took away just about the only advantage an NT had.

[NitewolfX]

Originally posted by NovemberSix
If i remember right plants have different rules to range vs mobs that can move. It was way back when the devs were talking about that and NTs could kill them with out getting attacked so they increased the range plants can attack.

The max distance any player or NPC can reach by using programs or ranged weapons is 40 meters.

Hmm, just realized the melee wasn't mentioned in his article. So that means that MA's can hit over 40 meters? Plants can.

Martial Artists unite and demand that you can hit at 45 meters!

This is just rediculous.

[______________Mascot]

bump

Still waiting for an official response to why NPCs aren't subject to range cap (this was reported weeks and weeks ago btw), even though Jim claim they are.

Would also like an explanation to why any alternate solution wasn't chosen. Breaking target lock when moving out of the area where mob was able to strike back, for instance.

[__________Mindswayer]

Originally posted by andertec

BRING BACK LONG RANGE VIEW

Ander

AND THE OLD FOV!!!

You can't even see from one end of Rome Red (the park) to the other, the far end wall dissapears. Wasn't like that in Beta. The game just looked better in beta.

[______________Mascot]

Dunno if FC still reads this thread, but it seems the logical place to reply to Jim's new post on range.

1) How about just breaking target lock once we move out of the mob's perception range? It doesn't seem to me this would take "tons of time".

2) The reason only plants can be documented easily, is that they don't start moving once they're hit. Thus it's easy to just move out of range and document them still hitting us. If you wanna check out the borgs (for instance at mort factory), that would be nice. They seem to have a freakin long range, but it's hard to make accurate measurements since they hit so hard and run like there's no tomorrow as well.

I fail to see why you need specific mob types. It should be a lot easier to implement the range cap at one central point in the code rather than on a weapon by weapon or mob by mob basis..?

[______________Mascot]

Ok I documented the borg range the only way I could think of. Flying over and hitting F9 to get altitude once I got attacked. As you can see I'm 60m+ above ground level. Even if taking into account that I might've flown over a slight ditch in the terrain that's way above 40m "player only range cap".

http://home.online.no/~meadow/scrn0069.jpg

[______________Othgar]

FC,

Why did you find it necessary to cap range at 40m? Sure, I've seen your official response about PF performance, lag etc. BUT I have noticed NO better performance since the nerf whatsoever. If as I suspect it was really because a few players who had learned the game mechanics you point out in your article and were exploiting it to their advantage to gain levels then I say, SO F#%@ing What!!! This IS a game, its suppose to be fun, if thats their type of fun and they want to get to 200 like greased lightning so what, let them have fun doing it... I dont care and I suspect not many others aside from the PvP whiners do either. I bought and subscribe to the game to have fun and forget my RL worries for a time. My way of enjoying the game isnt the quest for levels like some or the RP like some but by manipulating the game mechanics in such a way as to be wearing ELite at 30 or equiping weapons, making bots/pets far above my level just to do it. I dont PvP with these twinks but rather prove to myself I can do what others find they cant or find to tedious or complicated to try. Thats what I enjoy and I hurt no one by doing and now your going to nerf that ability as well but no matter it will be "fun" to try and get around the new rules. But for heavens sake BRING BACK RANGE as well as most of the other nerfs you implemented that have caused good players and good people to leave before its to late.

You say in your follow up article that their are much better ways to acheive the same thing but you lack time and resources to do it now so BAM! you nerf it all. WHY? Put it back the way it was so everyone can start having fun again and devote the resources to it during the next 3+ years of the damn game sometime. It's not like having 100 or even 200 or even 300 level 200 players will hurt anything anyway. And furthermore the reason you lack the resources to do it is you have crapped on this game so much and taken so many on the chin everyone including me is scared to death your not going to make the next 3 months let alone the next 3 years.

Take a lesson from your company name and bring FUN back to this game and the resources you need will follow.

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by Mascot
Ok I documented the borg range the only way I could think of. Flying over and hitting F9 to get altitude once I got attacked. As you can see I'm 60m+ above ground level. Even if taking into account that I might've flown over a slight ditch in the terrain that's way above 40m "player only range cap".

http://home.online.no/~meadow/scrn0069.jpg

Pretty slick way of testing range. Kudos to you.

The calculation might not include height though. If you can get someone to root a borg, you could try the test on land.

[______________Mascot]

I could root one myself, only problem is I can't take enough damage to move out of range while taking screenshots. Nanobreed NT with implants and IPs to NOT tank isn't very conductive to standing in range of any of these blokes for more than a second or two.

I'm virtually positive the calculation does include height though. If I get attacked and fly straight up, I get out of range. So it should be a valid test.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Othgar
Take a lesson from your company name and bring FUN back to this game and the resources you need will follow.

I have to agree with you Oth. There really isn't any fun in this game anymore.

The Static Dungeons are completely pointless and STUPID and horrible rewards. A level 35-45 team cannot ever do the Steps of Madness, it's nearly impossible for a team level 100+ (which I did it that way the other night). All static dungeons have no relation to the story what so ever. I've done them all except for the Cyborg one. Tell me what is fun about fighting your way through endless GREYS for no exp yet they hit harder then Toughs or Seasoneds do just to end up at a camped boss from 2 level 180 Soldiers? Shouldn't the static dungeon have hard mobs that give more exp them a normal mob of the same level would do?

The Story is lame. The story is weak. I won't even bother downloading the new story movies since it has no relationship to me what so ever. None. This story is so weak that there is no hook ever to keep people watching it. There is nothing IN GAME that ever reflects any part of the stories, not even the static dungeons.

Missions are horribly tedious. Anybody who has done 2 of them knows.

Hunting is even worse. Hunting is literally the only way to gain a level since at level 100 it's impossible for me to kill a yellow and why would I when they only give 6k experience when I can literally leech of the Engineers at the Ace camp and still get 30k exp LEECHED? It takes 1.8m for me to level once and you expect me to do this 6k exp at a time on a monster that will kill me 75% of the time?

There is no Risk vs. Reward, and now Funcom you are making it even worse. With an IP reset, there is no risk in trying an Assault Rifle Advent, or a Shotgun Soldier. THERE IS NO RISK IN THIS GAME. Hell, there is no reward. There is no fun.

What's the point of this game? PVP is literally a waste of time. No matter How you look at it, it's pointless. Teams don't get titles and the titles give nothing. After a certain point leveling becomes a chore because there is literally nowhere to hunt during levels 90-120. Everything gives too little exp for the effort to kill it and the mobs that are even worth killing will more then likely destroy your team in such a way that you always lose more exp then you gain by the end of the night.

That is not fun.

What do I get to look forward to? Most characters can wear the same armor/weapons from level 30-200 without any problems. Since when is the same damn thing for months at a time fun?

When is an item actually going to be unique? I mean literally one item on the entire server, that isn't nodrop.

What the hell is with this Nodrop crap? Why is a Yalmaha nodrop? Why is a martial artist special move nodrop? Are you telling me that if I find a Yalmaha or a MA Special move in a chest (oh lets say a q185 BWT) that I have to lead somebody to Perpetual Wastlands just to sell it to them directly from the box? What use do I have for a q185 BWT move when I can't use it ever? It would sell for a hell of a lot if I could sell it. This world is so big that it isn't even worth playing without a Yalmaha. 5m credits is so incredibly hard to get when your missions are in Milky Way or Southern Foul Plains and you are level 45 running past level 90 mobs.

What's the fun in that?

Tradeskills make worse items in terms of time effort and credits to make it reletive to buying it from another player or finding it in a mission.

Take a lesson from Daoc. The best items in the game are player made and trade skills are cheap beyond cheap. Every class should have a COMPLETE trade skill, none of this half nano programming, half mechanical engineering BULLSH... that you have going on right now. None of this "It costs 5x as much to assemble the parts to make an Assault Rifle then it would be to buy in a store." NONE of that.

Every class, literally, should have 1 trade skill that is both valuable, in demand and very low cost. At least that would give some use to the word "profession."


The answer is there isn't any fun. There is nothing to look forward to, and there is nothing to strive for other then for some self satisfaction of living through a game that sucks your will to live just to level once.

There is NOTHING worth doing in this game other then to Hunt for Exp.

[______________Mascot]

I've got little to say except I agree 100% with Lucid's comments. I've had two major goals in this game. 1) Get a yalamaha, 2) get past lvl100.

I've accomplished both those goals and I haven't leveled since. It's more fun helping out lower level chars while chatting and being social than it is to work on my own char. I don't even have a store to go to to see the new damage I can deal once my MC reaches a given number anymore. I can't see anything interesting in the future for my character.

Any of you high level NTs able to give me some light to look forward to?

To get back on topic. FC please don't stop responding on this issue. Also, feel free to respond in this thread so we can get some faster feedback than a login-screen reply once every few weeks.

[_____________Salazar]

Yes I agree with Lucid and Mascot. I have been playing since it went live and have yet to get my Yalmaha The first 1 or 2 months of this game were great even though there were many crashes and bugs. But since then is has become very routine. Do missions for money, Hunt for XP.
Camp by a mission booth for 30 minutes to find missions that I can do. I hate getting missions in areas I have no maps for or are to far from a whompa or grid. With no transport I dont want to wast time running someplace where I will probably get killed. I think the whole map thing is a real pain in the neck, and the reduced view distance in certain zones. Anyway I have lots of niggles wih this game, sorry to whinge.
I have played UO for just about 2 years now and I think I find it more enjoyable now than after 6 months of AO. I think the game has potential but just now there are more stupid little niggles that make the game very frustrating and annoying. I do not think that in 6 months I will still be playing this game as it stands now. I will try DAOC as soon as I can get hold of it, but I would much rather play a Sci-Fi game just now after UO, maybe Necoron if it ever gets released or SWG. And as for the story, well nice videos to watch but that is as far as it effects me. I expect I wont even bother downloading those soon.
As for the range, well I think enough has been said on that. It seems to me that even Funcom doesnt know how the game works and they havent even responded to this thread which has pointed out obvious flaws in their account of how it works. Still I am not surprised at that. What would have surprised me is to see some response.

[______________Mascot]

Salazar, FC haven't bothered answering this thread. They have "answered" in stories on the login screen though. I use the term losely as the answers are rather flimsy imo.

[Ravan]

Jim Salabim is utterly clueless, he got snared with the range cap bs with the plant mobs doing more then 40m. fosslegrims do melee damage halfway across the screen, and they move.

His whole story with the neat little graph to impress us failed.
And you got busted in this forum

so why can those flower type mobs do more then 40m damage,

infact if you guys are not aware, the first level flower mobs range was at 45m, then when it went up in mob name the range also increased so thier range is about 50m or so.

I know this because with a stigma, before the great range nerf.
i tested range on various flower type mobs trying to find the cherry spot to level.

What I would like to know is this, So they can have Range greater then 40m and its not a strain on the game,
Why can't I?

To Mr. Jim Salabim
Your game is sinking faster then the Titanic, your cowardess, of posting a little artical at the main site instead of interacting here
With THE PEOPLE that ACTUALLY play the game proves the point
That you are clueless..

6months is almost up, who will stay and who will go?

Jim, BS for answers is not going to help you save customers..

(BS for those in norway means Bull****)

[Seraphim]

I havent read above post, sorry but in to hurry for have time for this, i just wanna add some comment about ranges. I heard from second part ofthisarticle that its in future design the rifle shall give us better advantage and agent will have larger range but screw that Fc, u havent been have single clear thought about the consequences.

FC apply a mud engine with 3d graphics upon it thats fact, u cant have 1 damage pool and 1 hit pool to describe effect of weapon in more advanced scenarios as this Sci-Fi. Many wierd concepts arises then.

Enought of this to the point to what i react is what the hell do i care about range, i put on my ELLS and with +39 in range i can use pistol and rifle with same range cap, u see the point? Jesus, think ppl .....

[Nyadach]

Originally posted by Jim Salabim
"Still we would want rifles to have the longest range of all, but that intention was partly torpedoed with the introduction of the 40m cap. The situation will improve with time though, as all new weapons we make will mostly follow the standard of rifles having longest range, and others having fairly short range.

Thanks a bunch Jim! not only do NT's (you know? those guys with very little hp who have to stand around like lemons while we caste?) have the same range as Agents and Soldier at the moment, but you are planning to give the Agents greater range? This is utter rollerrat droppings and if you can actually remember this, one of the advantages for an NT according to the description on the manual was its range extention buffs to enable them to be a long range hitter! I take it we've had all them taken now have we?

Heck, I aint a gimped NT, I try and play my char to the best I can (1650hp (Nanomage) and 575Matcrea on a lvl 79 NT I didn't think was bad) but there's so many Chars out their which already own us in combat. And that not even mentioning the pet classes who just see you, send the pet and disappear, and I am not even into pvp and I get hit by these items lacking in us.

Bottom line on this is just a VERY un thought through idea which I can but hope you see some light on. We don't like having the range the same as the gun nuts, but heck if you're going to give them longer range thats just laughable - if you have to leave it as it is, but PLEASE do not give them another advantage.

[_________Anisotropic]

Increase range back, having rifle's capped at 40. and NF's capped at 40 is absurd, it doesn't improve game play, this game was a lot better when range was actually usefull. . i can't believe your thinking of introducing more guns with even LOWER range,. to make it seem like rifles have long range, put range back. like it was. before most of the people left this game. if you MUST cap it. cap it at 80, OR better yet FIX your game so the errors and bugs that were exploited when range was VERY far, don't exist anymore. IE being able to shoot things not in preception range

Please Put range back , For rifles AND NT, NF's. don't listen to pvp whiners. PVP is meant for TEAM's. people that do PVP solo without the proper character to do so should expect to get "owned"