Tepamina's Soldier Guide (UPDATED 2/19/10)

[Stigman]

....expressed as cap + attack speed.....

I know, I know, you'll get tired of me soon I'm sure.

With Fling Shot the 'Skill To Cap' formula always generates a figure that when re-used to calculate the cap time (with the current formula) always produces an answer of 7 secs (see above worked examples as some examples).

This means that when expressing a min cap as 7 + Attack we'd end up with times over 8 secs, which we know to be wrong (for some weapons).

This means *waaahhhhh*, well hopefully you see why I think something somewhere is not right?

The other 'Skill To Cap' formulae calculate FA @ 10 secs and Burst @ 8 secs then the +Attack is added, whereas the Fling is 7 secs.

Adding the +Attack onto that would then mean a min cap of 8 secs. ..if its taken that the current formula is correct.

Hmmmm, it would be great if I was misinterpreting something rather than thinking I'm the only one seeing this anomily.

EDIT: Forgot to mention..maybe with fling its just '7 secs' and no +Attack?

[Spartanx9]

Actually, if you can and are willing to do a few tests Stig, I would much appreciate it.

While i do say that it is 6 seconds, the formula implies that it is 7 seconds.

If you have these weapons, could you test either of the two pistols, assuming you can lower your fling shot by enough to add an additional second to make sure what value you need for fling shot.

The cap might be right, but the formula might be wrong, adding another second by accident.

And no, I don't get tired of discussing mechanics. Keep in mind that this guide was written a while ago, based on the formulas that were given in AO's early life cycle. Assumptions could have been put it and getting the exact information concerning the actual cap and not the assumed cap is good.

Edit: to get to the 6 second cap, you're looking at adding another 100 Fling shot skill to your previous numbers.

[Stigman]

Ok, went and accosted the Barkeep as I already have the Pew'Her equipped and my Fling skill at 1225 (1220 begin the req skill to cap speed).

Now, I might not have the best timing equipment going but for the life of me every fling recharge appears to be spot on 6 secs.

Thought I'd post about this as it was something I could test instantly.

EDIT...

Ok, reduced my Fling skill down to 1119. Using this figure with the current Recharge calc formula it generates an expectation of 8.01 secs so lets say 8 secs.

And guess what, that is about what my recharge now is. So with the skill I have (1119) its calculating the right answer or seems to be. And we know that a skill of 1225 is capping at 6 secs even tho the formula has it at 7 secs.

confused.com

Few tests...

1225 = 6 secs :: Recharge calc = 6.95 secs
1220 = 6 secs :: Recharge calc = 7.00 secs
1170 = 7 secs :: Recharge calc = 7.50 secs
1119 = 8 secs :: Recharge calc = 8.01 secs

[Spartanx9]

I do believe there is a formula error, using 7 instead of 6. Your test also confirms it.

You would require 1320 Fling Shot for 6 second fling:

[(1.2x16] - 6] x 100 = 1320

Given your test, 1225 would give you a recharge calc of 6.95, making it another 100 skill to get to pure 6 seconds recharge. Remember that Anarchy Online rounds down, so you'll see a 6 second recharge when in actually it's probably a bit higher.

[Stigman]

I do believe there is a formula error, using 7 instead of 6. Your test also confirms it.

You would require 1320 Fling Shot for 6 second fling:

[(1.2x16] - 6] x 100 = 1320

Given your test, 1225 would give you a recharge calc of 6.95, making it another 100 skill to get to pure 6 seconds recharge. Remember that Anarchy Online rounds down, so you'll see a 6 second recharge when in actually it's probably a bit higher.

However.....I'm already getting the 6 sec recharge with 1220.

The right-hand times where measured ingame times and the left-hand times are the expected times using the formula. Even with rounding an anomily creeps in when you hit the required skill, hope I'm making sense on this bit.

1225 = 6 secs :: Recharge calc = 6.00 secs
1220 = 6 secs :: Recharge calc = 7.00 secs <---- borked result
1170 = 7 secs :: Recharge calc = 7.00 secs
1119 = 8 secs :: Recharge calc = 8.00 secs

I tested the QL188 Enchanted Waterfall Eye Wind Onehander, however I had well over the required Fling Shot skill (tested on agent that uses Angst of the Xan) but ofc the formulae give a time of 7 secs when it was infact capping at 6 secs ingame.

It seems that the 'Skill To Cap' formula is correct in that it calc'ed 1220 and the ingame test showed that works, but the 'Recharge Time' formula is somehow borked (maybe).

Does that sound feasible?

EDIT.....

When I first started out hunting these formulae I came across the following Wiki which indicated the following formula:

Recharge Time: (Attack x 15) - Fling skill / 100

Now this one uses 15 instead of 16 so I tested a few calcs.

1225 = 6 secs (ingame) :: Recharge calc = 5.75 secs - rounded up (maybe) - 6.00 secs / set hard cap @ 6 secs
1220 = 6 secs (ingame) :: Recharge calc = 5.80 secs - rounded up (maybe) - 6.00 secs / set hard cap @ 6 secs
1170 = 7 secs (ingame) :: Recharge calc = 6.30 secs - rounded up (maybe) - 7.00 secs
1119 = 8 secs (ingame) :: Recharge calc = 6.81 secs - rounded up (maybe) - 7.00 secs

However I feel that the 8 secs I measured ingame was pretty accurate (I used both a manual timer and F9 for time stamps). I feel this would become more inaccurate the lower my Fling Shot skill got but couldn't test any lower. This site also lists Minimum Recharge Time: 6 Seconds + Attack.

Off to faff for now.

Further EDIT...

Well I've been playing with formulae and as of yet am unable to create one that gives the desired results. I've tried a gazillion ways, lots of testing with rounding at each stage of the calculation, but to no avail.

[Stigman]

Ok, bear with me on this one.

In my hunt for a weapon I could test out Fling with I came across this one (not that I could test it). I did notice that the current formulae for calculating recharge times for FA and Burst appears to calulate a result that takes into account the 'soft cap' of the weapon, i.e. Cap + Attack Speed, whereas the anomalous Fling formula still calculates what I believe to be a rogue value ...the now ominous '7'.

Weapon:	QL81 Second-Hand IEC Flashpoint Laser Rifle				
					
Min Dmg:        5          Attack:     7.91	
Max Dmg:      290          Recharge:   5.00	
Crit Bonus:   211          MBS:        1023	
					
					
            Has   Min Rec   Skill To Cap   Your Skill   Your Rec
Full Auto:   Y     17.00        6150          6150        17.00
Burst:       Y     15.00        2775          2775        15.00
Fling:       Y     12.00       11956         11956         7.00

Min Rec = Minimum Recharge (Cap + RoundDown(Attack) = Weapon Soft Cap)

Caps: FA @ 10 secs / Burst @ 8 secs / Fling @ 5 secs (adding the minimum of 1 secs from Attack gives the much loved 'Caps').

Skill To Cap = Calculated using existing formulae.

Your Skill = Manually entered number (into my spreadsheet). Data is superfluous but left in for completeness.

Your Rec = Your Recharge Time - calculated using existing formulae.

Ok, now to me it seems that existing formulae when calculating 'Skill To Cap' are somehow taking into account the resulting 'Soft Caps' so when the figure is put back into the 'Recharge Time' calc its generating the correct time.

Previously I had thought that it was only the 'Recharge Time' formula for Fling was erroneous, however I now believe the 'Skill To Cap' to be in error.

The current Fling 'Skill To Cap' Formula does generate the correct skill required to cap weps that will naturally have a cap of 6 secs however I think this is coincidental.

Skill To Cap:
FA = ((Recharge x 40) + (FullAutoCycle / 100) - 10) x 25
Burst = ((Recharge x 20) + (BurstCycle / 100) - 8) x 25
Fling = ((Attack x 16) - 7) x 100

You will notice that the FA and Burst formulae have the 'Cap' somewhere in the calculation however Fling has the su****ious '7' whereas this should be '5' ...right?

Anyone tried to hammer out a new formula?

I have tried a good number now and am currently playing with the following (to keep formulaic consistency):

Fling = ((Recharge x ??) + (??) - 5) x 25

But no luck yet.

/wrists

[Spartanx9]

Looking more on this subject matter Stig (and I do appreciate this, as going over these formulas again to shed new light is a good thing), I do believe the 7 should be a 5 as that is the skill required to cap fling.

However, we can't put it into a formula the same as Burst or FA, given the fact that both have a cycle, where as Fling doesn't (same with AS).

Another thing that gets me is while Tepamina probably based their caps off of this thread: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=99162, I delved a bit further and found a post in 2002 with Jayde posting it as attack*15 - FSskill/100 for a recharge (no mention of the cap) here: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/showthread.php?t=68822

Now, i do believe two parts might be in error for the cap: the 7 shouldn't be a 7, perhaps a 5. and figuring out if it's attk *16 or attk *15.

[Stigman]

Now, i do believe two parts might be in error for the cap: the 7 shouldn't be a 7, perhaps a 5. and figuring out if it's attk *16 or attk *15.

I've tested with these numbers (was already aware of the x15) till I was blue in the face and had no 'hmmmm' moments / results, thats not to say they aren't the right ones tho.

As to the no 'Cycles', I went for subbing that with lil calcs using Attack/Recharge.

But on the whole I try what ever comes to mind regardless of its craziness.

EDIT....

Ever wondered where the 1600 (16) comes from in these formulae?

[ (Wep Attack time x 16) - 7 ] x 100 :: (1600 x Wep Attack Time) - 700

In the other calcs, the Cycle numbers are known (published ...whatever), however we have this number used in the Fling formulae which has been magically conjured up from somewhere. If we knew the relavence of this figure it might shine some light on the problem.

Anyone?

[Stigman]

Well, well, well...

I think I might of cracked it.

Ok, I've created a new formula for both 'Skill To Cap' and 'Recharge Time'. Please remember that this is all theoretical atm but it looks and feels more right that the previous formulae.

Skill To Cap = (((16 * AttackSpeed) - 5) - (2 * RoundDown(AttackSpeed))) * 100

Recharge Time = RoundUp((AttackSpeed * 16) - RoundDown(AttackSpeed) - (FlingShotSkill / 100))

One thing that needs absolute clarification is that the min recharge time for any weapon is infact: 5 + RoundDown(AttackSpeed). By this I mean for example that a weapon with an attack speed of 8.7 secs results in a cap of 13 secs (5 + 8) and that this is infact the absolute min recharge you will ever achieve. I mention this as these formulae take this into account. One thing to note is that places such as Xyphos and elsewhere may be mis-representing the min recharge on weapons with an attack speed of 2 secs or more (e.g. will say XXXX required to cap 6 secs - when in fact you can't actually achive this).

Anyhows, enough of the waffle..some figure work.

QL300 Augmented Master Engineer Pistol

AttackSpeed:     1.00
Skill To Cap:     900
Min Cap:         6.00

FS Skill     Rec Time
   900         6.00
   880         7.00
   860         7.00
   840         7.00
   820         7.00
   800         7.00
   799         8.00


QL300 Peh'Wer Pistol

AttackSpeed:     1.20
Skill To Cap:    1220
Min Cap:         6.00

FS Skill     Rec Time
  1220         6.00
  1200         7.00
  1180         7.00
  1160         7.00
  1140         7.00
  1120         7.00
  1119         8.00


QL200 BigBurger Inc. Chapman Max

AttackSpeed:     1.30
Skill To Cap:    1380
Min Cap:         6.00

FS Skill     Rec Time
  1380         6.00
  1360         7.00
  1340         7.00
  1320         7.00
  1300         7.00
  1280         7.00
  1279         8.00

Ok, those initial 3 are ones that naturally capped at 6 secs, the previous formula calculated the right skill required but I felt this was always coincidental. The next few examples are weps with attack speeds over 2 secs. Using the existing formula would always generate a recharge time of 7 secs...which is wholly incorrect for some weps based on the 5+RoundDown(AttackSpeed) principle. Read on...

QL81 Second-Hand IEC Flashpoint Laser Rifle

AttackSpeed:     7.91
Skill To Cap:   10756
Min Cap:        12.00

FS Skill     Rec Time
 10756        12.00
 10736        13.00
 10716        13.00
 10696        13.00
 10676        13.00
 10656        13.00
 10655        14.00


QL300 Inamorata Ocra-Bhotaar Assault Rifle

AttackSpeed:     6.00
Skill To Cap:    7900
Min Cap:        11.00

FS Skill     Rec Time
  7900        11.00
  7880        12.00
  7860        12.00
  7840        12.00
  7820        12.00
  7800        12.00
  7799        13.00


QL300 Fleshy Cavalier Pistol

AttackSpeed:     2.40
Skill To Cap:    2940
Min Cap:         7.00

FS Skill     Rec Time
  2940         7.00
  2920         8.00
  2900         8.00
  2880         8.00
  2860         8.00
  2840         8.00
  2839         9.00

Ok, for now that concludes my investigations, so some feedback, critique, and testing would be nice. ...I can take it.

Pheeeewwwwwwww....

[Stigman]

Ok, just had a fantastic blonde moment.

Now I know that the existing 'Recharge Time' ALWAYS produces a result of 7 secs, so I said to myself what if I just include a -1 somewhere in the formula, soooooo......

Recharge Time = RoundUp((16 x AttackSpeed) - (FlingShotSkill / 100) - 1)

I pondered how I was going to test this then I remembered someone mentioning the cap time you currently have is displayed when you keep hammering the special, e.g.:

You hit OT Bartender for 625 points of Fling Shot damage.
Unable to perform action, Fling Shot skill is locked, able in 00:00:43
Unable to perform action, Fling Shot skill is locked, able in 00:00:43
Unable to perform action, Fling Shot skill is locked, able in 00:00:43

I tried the following weps and used the existing 'Skill To Cap' and the slightly altered 'Recharge Time' formulae:

QL122 Balanced Oneida Razor Half-Bow

AttackSpeed:          2.55
Skill To Cap:         3380
MyFlingShotSkill:     1226
Recharge Time:       28.00

You hit OT Bartender for 1557 points of Fling Shot damage.
Attacked by OT Bartender!
Wait for your previous special attack to complete.
Wait for your previous special attack to complete.
Unable to perform action, Fling Shot skill is locked, able in 00:00:28
OT Bartender: Get lost while you still can, Levinstein! You're next!
Unable to perform action, Fling Shot skill is locked, able in 00:00:28

QL23 Cast-Off Blackhole Mk IX

AttackSpeed:          3.50
Skill To Cap:         4900
MyFlingShotSkill:     1226
Recharge Time:       43.00

You hit OT Bartender for 622 points of Fling Shot damage.
You hit OT Bartender with nanobots for 1272 points of projectile damage.
Wait for your previous special attack to complete.
OT Bartender: You will pay with your life for that, Levinstein!
Unable to perform action, Fling Shot skill is locked, able in 00:00:43
Attacked by OT Bartender!
Wait for your previous special attack to complete.
Unable to perform action, Fling Shot skill is locked, able in 00:00:43

Sooo, what can we summize from all my faffing?

• The existing 'Skill To Cap' formula is correct.
• That there was an anomily in the 'Recharge Time' formula.
• Fling Shot has a FIXED cap of 6 secs and anyone/anything that mentions 'cap + attack' is infact incorrect.

Well, there we have it, a -1 fixed the problem.

Althought this was a slight anti-climax and I wish the formulae I'd made in the previous post where correct at least we now have a more correct formula and tested it.

Guess my work here is done...I'll slink off elsewhere now.

[Ocene]

can you guys summarize? ...

[Dogtrauma]

If anyone is still updating this maybe the Sleekblaster - C05
should be mentioned as the tastiest off hand for pistol users at TL 5 or so, easily capped burst and fling with energy damage for teh win!

[Notcrattey]

If anyone is still updating this maybe the Sleekblaster - C05
should be mentioned as the tastiest off hand for pistol users at TL 5 or so, easily capped burst and fling with energy damage for teh win!

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=271966&ql=200 I have a feeling this might perform a little better.

[Dogtrauma]

Kinda have to disagree with you on that, self baffs for RE, fling shot and a 1/1 attack speed all taken together and the Sleekblaster pulls ahead.

I realize my link is for a ql 300 gun, disregard that, i lost my Xyphos login to a HD-crash.

[wmtyrance]

Another weapon choice to use if you can't afford a PB. The Eradicator XCI-52. Its easier to equip than a E-Beamer as it only needs ASR. It has fling shot like the Beamer but its faster and holds more ammo. Great gun for lvl 20-100.

[Spartanx9]

Perhaps it's time for a rewrite of this soonish. It's been about 5 years since it's been updated.

[Tyfowler]

Agreed. I've been thinking about doing it for awhile, updates and such. If you'd like to make updates to it PM me and we'll see if we can make something work. Major updates need to be added to the weapons, procs, and buffs department. Was thinking about waiting until after the rebalance was finished. At this rate at least, it seems like rebalance could go on forever.

[Spartanx9]

Yeah. I also wanted to do tests regarding damage potentials of a few setups to determine how much of a damage gap is between ar and smg as well as determining if crit is better than add dmg for ar given how add damage affects perks. Don't think any theorycrafting really has been done. (In before pvm is a joke, being able to theorycraft setups would go good into a guide)