General questions about new nanos...

[Autohead]

Well you can say whatever you want...because there's no way for those of us on this side of the fence to know for sure.

P.S. I love how you ignored the first half of my post...you know you did us wrong with the misinformation on the full IPR situation. Next time don't say there's a limited window if you're just going to decide to get rid of the limit.

[howlin]

So the requirements for the 'in combat' nanos were very much considered and are intended to make people make choices and not have everything all of the time. The math behind them is sound and the requirements are consistent across the professions in relation to the nano budgets in and off themselves. Given that those budgets aren't 'equal' for all professions then it inherently means that some professions will not have it as 'hard' as others. Given that the different professions nano abilities and items aren't even to begin with means that the relative difficulty of equipping will not always be 'even'.

So you are actually saying that giving the highest new NT nano reqs:

SensoryImprovement 1640
SpaceTime 1640

And new shade nano with reqs:

BiologicalMetamorphosis 1654
SpaceTime 1654

is planned and even somehow logical?

And if so why? Is it because shades have spirits that go up to amazing QL 270?
Or because they do not have an eye spirit that buffs nanoskills?

[charmant]

No one is going to force you to use them, if you don't feel any given nano is 'worth it' then you don't have to get it, let alone use it. These nanos like all other equipment in the game are options available to you if you want to pursue them and use them.

Look in the engi forum.

NOT A SINGLE engi said ..."woot we got something"

You keep letting old engi bugs unfixed while adding crap engi nanos , while you improve with no reason other proffesions!!!

you ruined this game for me

[IHaveHugeNick]

So you are actually saying that giving the highest new NT nano reqs:

SensoryImprovement 1640
SpaceTime 1640

And new shade nano with reqs:

BiologicalMetamorphosis 1654
SpaceTime 1654

is planned and even somehow logical?

And if so why? Is it because shades have spirits that go up to amazing QL 270?
Or because they do not have an eye spirit that buffs nanoskills?

Clear proof of how some developers didnt do their homework and now claim otherwise.

[kuznechik]

The designers took a great deal of care to ensure that the math was correct and all the nanos can be cast by the relevant profession.

About designers' credibility:
These same devs (I assume) made LE with procs that don't work, with like 20 procs having duration that isn't 1 minute (with declared "all procs are 1 min duration")
Same devs made procs with nanoinit attached to it so UBTed keepers were able to enjoy nanobar in fight.
Same devs made dreadloch weapons aka crat pistol with burst recharge but w/o burst and dshark/rapier with fa/burst but w/o fa/burst recharge.
Same devs made ofab backs with "on use" stun resist.

So I kinda questioning their credibility a bit.

That is part of the point of the nanos, these aren't just designed to be hard when buffing. They are designed to be a hard to use in combat as well. It would be rather pointless to lower the requirements for the 'in combat' nanos to the point where you didn't need to make any sacrifices or consider your set-up to utilize them.

About in-combat vs long-term buffs.
Even w/o ATE3 trained you still can swap some items and get wrangle for long-term buffs. If devs require combat professions to perk CoNC - that's one thing. But if they require them to run in arith+conc+mochams - only question we can ask is: why don't you raise it by 152 more, so we will need highest umbral too?
Example:
Fixer' SWS10 requires 1755/1430/1420 mm/bm/ts
Fixer' top SL hot requires 1510/1255/1248 mm/bm/ts
That's about 200 points difference between it. Let's say 150 is covered by umbral and 50 by swaps.

New hot is short (SL one was long) and require same stats as SWS11. This is beyond ridiculous, especially for fighting prof. It was NTs/MPs who have their AR derived from nanoskills who got +nanoskills mostly...

About different professions and fine-tuning of requirements per prof.
Sorry, you just made some not really acceptable spit on your community.

So NTs are better nano prof than enfos, so NT will get 7 more nanoskills in new nano requirements, while shades are obviously mega-nanoskill prof, so they get even more. And finally - fixers are even better nano-users than shades, while engies top fixers in nano department like every day.
Where are 2400 reqs on new NT nanos if you want to stop NTs from going NR1?
(and btw, I've checked it just for fun of it - if nanomage NT max all abilities, bodydev/nanopool, nanoinit, runspeed, all evades, complit, all nanoskills, treatment, first aid, conceal, perception - basicly all skills they can look for for pvp - they still have like 300k IPs left to spend on some odd things. So "NTs need to IP more nanoskills and can't afford it" is moot.

When you answer to your playerbase - you can skip something, but openly saying that black is white and white is black making you looking like idiot, sorry.

[dododo2]

It should be perfectly obvious at this stage that in the case of priorities for FC: NT>Shade.

No need to be surprised Outraged yet again though? Yes, I understand that.

[Lumifly]

Most of the people that will be using these nanos will be 220. They dont have any levels to go grind, they dont (mostly) have loads of uber phats to go camp, they are by and large at or close to endgame.

What game do you play? Ever since inf missions reward change, the game has been flooded with 220s that are under equipped, especially in this context.

[Ober]

What game do you play? Ever since inf missions reward change, the game has been flooded with 220s that are under equipped, especially in this context.

Not to mention, 220'ies that aren't even ai 20

[Kain97]

Sil, you haven't yet explained the logic behind forcing fixers(or shades, etc.) to swap just about everything to cast their combat nanos, but letting nt's cast their nanos unbuffed and naked.

You're literally forcing fixers to run around in arith/DB armor (yes, I have conc 10 perked, fixer NCU, CR, no I don't have NR perked) to cast their hot, an absolutely HUGE sacrifice. Versus an nt who can wear whatever they want, except making a swap to the new nanodeck.

Where is the logic? I don't care what the nanos do, or how much of an improvement they are over old stuff, really. The issue is that the requirements are requiring a huge sacrifice from some, and minimal sacrifices from others. Where's the fairness? Where's the balance?

[Racatti]

220 isn't endgame anymore ai 30 and le 70 is a must for endgame

name me one of these new nanos that isn't castable with ql 300 symbs and nano skill huds(why didn't you scream when these nano skill huds came out, you doesn't need to be a seer to knew when they came out that they would be needed in the futur), there is no nano skill armor needed for all of these new nanos that are casted infight.

In that case I'll kindly direct you to check reqs on fixer short hot.

[Dollcet]

By looking at all 17.7 Nanos of every Proffession and checking which are :

easy or are a big improvemnt over older Buffs / doable without sacrifice or at least somehow usefull / un-castable without full buffing gear and heavy outsidebuffs , uncastable in combat due to need of full buffing gear , insane ip-sink needing over 50% more of a nanoskill over the highest existing buff , offer nothing usefull for either pvm/pvp

you will be able to tell which Professions have a dedicated programmer that plays & knows what is needed , and which have got their 17,7 Nanos made by Mister "John Doe" in Cubilce 0815 who hasnt even played such a Toon & gets a Sheet of Paper telling him " 4 Nanos for Proffession XYZ till this Date , see Link1 Link2 Link3 if you need Ideas "

This is my point of view , i am happy with the new Doc Nanos , they are well done

BUT as soon as i see the new Ma-Nanos i fell pretty much screwed over and cant believe that person has played a MA at all / for a loooong Time / only with GM-Buffs .

I dare YOU Sirlirrion to :
Give us a Time and Date for single every Proffession where either you or the Guy who is in charge of developing for said Proffession will be present in ICC and explain why which recent change was made with which intent .
NO simple " we want to even the field close the gaps yadee yadee yadee " but straight to the point " Proffession XYZ could do this& this& this which wasnt ever meant to be thats why we did nerf this & that and hope it will force them to do ABCDEF "

I guess that with the recent and upcoming changes you got more confused Customers than ever before that want to know where this Boat is steering so give us Customerservice .

[howlin]

So you are actually saying that giving the highest new NT nano reqs:

SensoryImprovement 1640
SpaceTime 1640

And new shade nano with reqs:

BiologicalMetamorphosis 1654
SpaceTime 1654

is planned and even somehow logical?

And if so why? Is it because shades have spirits that go up to amazing QL 270?
Or because they do not have an eye spirit that buffs nanoskills?

I would realy love to hear an expanation from a dev about these reqs please.

[Silirrion]

I dare YOU Sirlirrion to :
Give us a Time and Date for single every Proffession where either you or the Guy who is in charge of developing for said Proffession will be present in ICC and explain why which recent change was made with which intent .
NO simple " we want to even the field close the gaps yadee yadee yadee " but straight to the point " Proffession XYZ could do this& this& this which wasnt ever meant to be thats why we did nerf this & that and hope it will force them to do ABCDEF

You know as well as I do that isn't going to happen, it's simply not a practical way to spend our resource when we have many already existing means of feedback. Thats why you see me here posting and answering questions.

The fact that you personally might not get to 'talk' to us (virtually or otherwise) doesn't mean we don't listen, are neglectful, or will otherwise. We also have many players and testers that do get to speak to us and represent your opinions after shoiwng the patience, will and right approach to do so constructively. (and trust me, they don't always agree with us all the time either such is the way with designing content for tens of thousands of different opinions )

On the design of the nanos...

In a game as complex as AO there was imbalance from the start and that means when we add new content there will quite often be relative differences between the professions because they were relatively different to begin with.

Yes, certain professions have an easier time using nanos with higher requirements because they have a strength at nano casting that other professions might not have. That is part and parcel of having a deep, flexible and quite open ended skill system like we do in AO.

What I will tell you about the nanos is the same for each profession, as the same approach to each is applied. The new nanos are intended to be difficult to cast, think I have covered that now, and yes, that also means that as above, its not 'as hard' for some professions as it is for others due to the inherent bias towards nano abilities in some professions.

Next we were aiming to extend some of the existing and older nano lines within these additions, so we looked through the old lines to see where we might offer some improvements and upgrades.

Then we looked through the profession wishlists and took a look at what we felt from the lists was a viable option for this specific content. This a key thing here, a good deal of things on wishlists are exactly that - a wish - and quite a lot of them are never likely to be considered as wishes tend to be, well, wishes, and not always the most objectively considered request. Some certainly have a lot of merit (and a couple of the new nanos came directly from those suggestions) but also some don't.

None of the new nanos 'nerf' anyone. They provide options. Options mean you have a choice. If you would rather stick to your current set up for damage, healing or whatever rather then use a new support nano then fine, do so. We won't force you to change from the role you like, we are just providing you an option if you wish to do so.

I don't see choice as a bad thing. People regularly complain about 'cookie cutter' set-ups so I don't think you should be surprised to see us add true options to the high end gameplay that can mean people can make different, and viable, builds in very different ways for different roles.

We are certainly working towards trying to make teaming more appealing for PVP, and these nanos are just the latest in a line of changes since Lost Eden that includes some things to have encouraged more team centric PVP behavior. The coming PVP ranking changes in 17.8 will be a defining step there hopefully (more details on that to come, not quite ready for public consumption yet )

The fundamental thing when it comes to anything professional related is that people are inherently biased, in particular when it comes to PVP, and I don't mean that as a bad thing. It's natural to want the 'best' for your profession and we understand that, but you also have to understand that in a situation where things weren't 'even' in the first place when we give something to everyone like this what any given profession gets will not neccessarily be equal to the others as we will try and improve some professions more then others depending on the relative strengths of that profession.

So yes Fixers and Shades probably do indeed have to sacrifice more then an NT or an MP to use the new nanos as nano skills are not the focus of their abilities in the way they are for NTs or MPs.

Also none of the details in this is 'locked down'. While the top level goal is set for sure (i.e. we will not be making these nanos easy to cast) and isn't going to change we can, and do, consider feedback for changes while the items are in testing cycles, and even after they go live. We won't agree with all your points, but we do read the feedback, and I am here answering so constructive, rational and well presented feedback does get through (whining, flaming and calling the devs imbeciles on the other hand...well...you have already lost us then, we are on to the next post )

[Ecelon]

In that case I'll kindly direct you to check reqs on fixer short hot.

it is posible to cast them without any ari armor

[howlin]

On the design of the nanos...

I started to write a long answer to your post, full of your quotes and my replies to them but at some point i saw it's no use and that im only making myself nervous and that nothing you say makes sense and nothing i say will make it better.

Instead i just decided to call the devs idiots.
Yes i know it's bad but imo its fair and it will make me feel better.

At this point i would like to appologise and say that i understand what i said is wrong and that i will never do it again if i can have my forum posting rights back.

P.S. just watching this on preview makes me a calmer, happier person.

[Koizumi]

The designers took a great deal of care to ensure that the math was correct and all the nanos can be cast by the relevant profession. There is nothing ‘impossible’ about the requirements, but there is a choice for you to make, and yes, you might even have to sacrifice something else to be able to use them.

About designers' credibility:
These same devs (I assume) made LE with procs that don't work, with like 20 procs having duration that isn't 1 minute (with declared "all procs are 1 min duration")
Same devs made procs with nanoinit attached to it so UBTed keepers were able to enjoy nanobar in fight.
Same devs made dreadloch weapons aka crat pistol with burst recharge but w/o burst and dshark/rapier with fa/burst but w/o fa/burst recharge.
Same devs made ofab backs with "on use" stun resist.
So I kinda questioning their credibility a bit.

I lol'd...owned...
What you fail to see Sil is that 90+% of players do not see ANY reasoning behind sucha high requirements...and the same 90% thinks that the reasoning You provided is not a valid one....maybe its time to think about what ur doing?
Ur basicly putting up a fight aginst the whole paying community...

[bungerman]

None of the new nanos 'nerf' anyone. They provide options. Options mean you have a choice. If you would rather stick to your current set up for damage, healing or whatever rather then use a new support nano then fine, do so. We won't force you to change from the role you like, we are just providing you an option if you wish to do so.

I don't see choice as a bad thing. People regularly complain about 'cookie cutter' set-ups so I don't think you should be surprised to see us add true options to the high end gameplay that can mean people can make different, and viable, builds in very different ways for different roles.

You the designer might not be nerfing anyone, and it certainly might be a choice amongst players to use the nanos or not. but there are some nanos in regards to pvp ( the new 7x team blocker of engis come to mind) that if we do not 'chose' to use them, we will not be teamed and or laughed at like an enfo without mongo in PVM content. The engi that choses to use these buffs will get to participate in pvp, (just as the enforcer that uses mongo over the one that does not when it's needed in PvM) those that don't will be running around solo in a team pvp environment waiting for certain death. Doesn't seem like much of a choice after all, does it?

[Silirrion]

I lol'd...owned...
What you fail to see Sil is that 90+% of players do not see ANY reasoning behind sucha high requirements...and the same 90% thinks that the reasoning You provided is not a valid one....maybe its time to think about what ur doing?
Ur basicly putting up a fight aginst the whole paying community...

Not at all. Some of you just disagree that we should have higher requirements. We understand that, we know that some of you would prefer not to have to sacrifice something or change your set up. We just feel its not a problem to have some items with high requirements that are a challenge to attain.

Simple as that.

I think can and will use these nanos even if there are no further changes to them (and there might be) because when I think people stand back and look at them they will realise that not only can it be done, it will be worth it for some people to make the effort to use these nanos.

That is exactly how they are intended.

There will always be someone with an opinion contrary to our own. It does not mean we are fighting anyone. These nanos will be attained and used by players, but by every single last player? Maybe not, but we can't please everyone all of the time. It is never going to be universally popular when some items are hard to attain. There will always be some people who want everything to be easier for them and think they should be able to use everything easily.

I think I have now laid out our reasoning very carefully and soundly here, you are free to disagree with it, pretty sure its safe to say some of you do. And you know what? I know I have no real chance of convincing you that you are wrong anymore then you do of convincing me that the nanos are unuseable, uncastable or any of the other accusations being thrown around here

[bungerman]

thanks sil for answering the flame above and not the constructive criticism that you guys say you listen to. /sarcasm off

seems you are listening and posting about the flames

[Gnizt]

We get the idea about high reqs, and that they should be top nanos, for top players.

Yet excuses like "you have to make a scarifice" can really justify anything, the question is how much is reasonable to sacrifice.. same goes for the team pvp thing, in team pvp EVERYTHING is balanced, even if we all know its not, since ,you know, an imagined team could possible overcome almost evrything.

I've paid the most attention to the ma nanos, since i play a tlvl 7 ma the most. MAs are machines in pve, usually, but have requested surviability in pvp.

As it is now the "sacrifice" you have to do to cast the new team heal is all the NR from nr1-nr2. NR is important for survivability for many profession.
NR or not you will need 10 points in conc, hence it really requires ai 30 unless you have to sacrifice xyuen or coli, which is a utterly stupid things to do. You will need to sacrifice Ar, ma, brwal, dimach, sa, piercing ect from armor slots and possible aao and aad.

All this for a heal that isn't even mediocre when compared to other tlvl7 heals.

The point with it was to increase surviveability just a little bit, wasn't it?


When setting high reqs they should be in line with intelligent setups, everyone can play around with skill emulator and get the reqs with a random eccentric setup. I guess they're on test for a reason though. Good luck.

PS. Im glad and thankfull that FC contiune to develop the game, I really like the game, which is why I get pissed of when you folks **** up