Neutrals - are not what they're supposed to be!

[_______________Chill]

The reason neutrals should be allowed to buy in clan and omni shops is simple : neutrals are not their enemy, neutrals are more like peaceful foreigners and since when merchants don't sell to strangers. Imagine how stupid it would be if you took some vacation to a foreign country against which you're not at war and they wouldn't allow you to buy anything.
Also omnis and clanners can buy in neutral shops so I don't see any reason we couldn't do the same in theirs.

And the more customers merchants have the more money they make and the happier they are (don't tell me omni and clan merchants don't care about money, all merchants are the same when it comes to money, wherever they come from).

[___________Harlequin]

right, first off, i'd like to say i see no reason why neutrals should have any "advantages" apart from trading with anyone they please.
for those clanners that think they are self-sufficient and therefore can treat anyone that's non-clan as their enemies, i suggest you take a look at who funds your faction, and have been from the start. (for those that don't know, it's off-world competitors of omni-tek, do you really think you could fight and survive alone on rubi-ka without any form of logistical support?)
as for the omni employees, remember that you are at hart a buisness. as such, you have a revenue base to wich you sell your products that's much larger than the amount of people you employ, and these are ALL neutruals in the same sense as non-affiliated personell on rubi-ka (with the exeption of clanners you freely sell wares to, wich is ironic at best when you look at this debate).

Regarding trying to box up a definition of neutrality based on the actions of a single neutral like Ms Oak, let me explain the basis of neutrality to you.
a neutral is a non-affiliated person. as such, all actions taken by a neutral falls on that person's head, be it praise or scorn.
if you even attempt to label all neutrals as a cohesive unit, you really need to start expanding your point of view a bit.
understand that this does not apply to clanners or omni employees, as if a clanner does something, he does it under the protective umbrella of the council (sanctioned or not) and it therefore reflects for better or worse on the clan side itself than the person.
the same goes for an omni employee, as when he/she does something on his/her own, it will allways reflect on the corporation, and justly so, as that is the price of the benefits you reap from being affiliated with your faction.
the recent troubles with the ceasefire is a good example of employees and members behaving in a less-than-professional way, and how badly it can reflect on both sides (not to mention ambushing neutrals because we are easy targets to some), no names need to be mentioned.

on another note, i see a lot of people claiming to be "just a hard working employee or a soldier for a cause", and to you i'd like to point out what a soldier's duties are, as there seems to be some general confusion on the subject.
a soldier is someone who fights either for money or ideals, but in any case there are rules of engagement, and if you are a somewhat decent person (wich is the basis of the RoE for both the clans and omni i belive) there are ethical conciderations as well, and i think it's time someone mentioned them.

first of all, as a soldier, your duties in peacetime are to hone your skills, keep your equipment at ready, and in rubi-ka's case, to keep the peace.
if you are at war, you fight the enemy, and the enemy is allways clearly defined (this would be omni/the clans depending on wich side you belong to)
as for neutrals, we can have individual grudges, but no neutral can claim to that "we" are at war with any of the factions or declare any such state, as that would require the concensus of all neutrals, and i can't remember i've ever agreed to such a thing.
as for the faction soldiers, when you do enter combat, you have certain responsibilities, such as friend or foe identification.
if a neutral is doing combat support for any side in the middle of a fight such as healing or skill enhancement, i agree that he/she would be a valid target, as that person has chosen a side.
this does not however apply to the majority of neutrals killed in political zones, and those claiming neutrals to be valid targets for simply traveling through such a political zone (wich imo should really be called a limited combat zone) are quite simply murderers, thugs, or whatever you prefer to call people like that.
regarding ethics, i'll let you figure than one out for yourselves, and remind you if things get any worse, let's just say that you should never even pick up a weapon if you don't understand the implications of opening fire with it.

as for why i'm not clan or omni myself, i'll admit i like two things, stability and freedom. both sides cater to those ideals belive it or not, and allthough the clans have the upper hand morally, both sides are so infested with people holding their own personaly agendas and those of their guild far above any of the official faction goals that i simply can't trust any of them.
i trust people, not public anouncements, and there simply aren't enought trustworthy people on either side at the moment for me to put either my skills or dedication behind either faction, and as such i'd rather stand by the people i trust and call friends, be they omni, clan, or neutral.

i'll finish this little soapbox session with a little disclaimer for those that hope they can justify some less than savoury actions based on my words.

one, i speak only for myself, not other neutrals, not even for anyone in my guild.
If you have a problem with what i've said and you can't solve it with words, then take it out on me, don't even try to label anyone else that dares to stand on their own two feet in this place.

secondly, if you do come after me or any other neutrals, you better have a written order from Mr Ross or the council claiming myself or any other neutral you go after are enemies of your respective factions, as regardless of the outcome of the fight, it will be documented that you attacked.

Keep in mind that no war lasts forever, and when it does come to an end, the focus tends to shift internally and over to those that used war as an excuse to do as they damn well pleased to anyone.
(and that will not be a good thing for any of you, i'm quite sure about that)


Harlequin, neutral Nano Technician, currently residing in borealis.

[___________Catalyste]

I am amazed that neutrality (it's really an ideal, isn't it?) has garnered such controversy...

I will not challenge what others have said as such. The arguments will continue ad nauseum.

There is no single voice of neutrals; some are Clan sympathizers, some are Omni sympathizers, some feel that Neutrals will defeat both Clan and Omni in the great Conflict (well we DO have the only level 300's in the game on *our* team *giggle*). And then there are still others that are not a part of the conflict at all, (if that is truly possible). I disagree with ALL of them on *some* issue.

I know of a number of factions that indeed frown on shooting neutrals (one got demoted in rank for blasting me on the way to a mission, or so I was told my his commander and received a formal apology). if we are not in the conflict we don't NEED to fire first, I just wish everyone KNEW that we couldn't. I get yelled at by a group once for shooting (not killing) a member of their organisation in cold blood. Huh? Ummmkay, I had no weapons in my hands (pistol), and I can't fire first, so tell me, how did I do that? Not to mention the fact that I never even saw where the person was shooting me from, sigh.

Sure I could blitz missions without worrying about tokens, but I can't GET tokens (they ARE useful, I can't get the health and nano that they give) so don't complain about that.

Shopping? Gahh... I have friends that shop for me, big deal, it's just a major inconvenience, and in a way I can understand why (I WOULD like to use the channels though).

Folks, neutrality is not better or worse, just DIFFERENT. We have different advantages and different challenges. And don't think neutrals cannot be a part of the story, that has to do with individual PEOPLE, not an alignent issue. JUST JUMP IN! I am having a BALL, and am not even in an organisation! Life is what you make it, but sitting around waiting for something to happen ain't gonna do it. I hear of people that wish they could be neutral again, so there HAS to be something good about it *smiles*

[_______________Xente]

Originally posted by Danae
The reason neutrals should be allowed to buy in clan and omni shops is simple : neutrals are not their enemy, neutrals are more like peaceful foreigners and since when merchants don't sell to strangers. Imagine how stupid it would be if you took some vacation to a foreign country against which you're not at war and they wouldn't allow you to buy anything.
Also omnis and clanners can buy in neutral shops so I don't see any reason we couldn't do the same in theirs.

And the more customers merchants have the more money they make and the happier they are (don't tell me omni and clan merchants don't care about money, all merchants are the same when it comes to money, wherever they come from).

Ok, I'll say it one more time and I'm done -

Neutrals aren't "like" anything. The only thing that Omni knows about a neutral character is that they are not clan affiliated, what incentive is there to give them unfettered access to their cities? Omni is not some tourist spot, and its in their best interest to give people incentive to join. Similarly, a clan city has no incentive to help a neutral, as they may be collaborators. I have no idea why neutral shops let clan and omni shop there, perhaps they are simply run by oppurtunistic merchants who are willing to sell guns/armor to both sides.

Neutrals can throw their hands up and say, "Oh, I'm not hostile to *you*", but this doesn't cut it. Many clanners and omni alike are fighting passionatly and desperately for their home, but here we have neutrals who refuse to take an active role in solving the crisis. Frankly as a clanner, I have *far* more respect for a Omni who is willing to come to the table and discuss a solution than for a neutral who doesn't take a side.

But anyway, this is the Game Mechanics forum - as it stands, neutral characters have exactly what they should, and even be thankful that they even have that - neutral outposts 20K and and Mort make things much easier than they could be be.

--Xente

[_______________Johan]

Originally posted by MiKEBoND

If Neutrals were good... neutrals would be the MAJOR faction in the game.

And that would be bad. Wouldnt it.

You've got a point. IF neutrals had MANY advantages there wouldn't be that many omni and clan anymore.

Meaby make it that NEUTRAL TRADERS can save anywhere and bring omni dungeon items to clan and vice versa.

Could be good for the economy.

[fractaloon]

You know, there have been as many opinions about neutrals as there have been posts. Regardless of what anyone thinks one thing is true. If you don't have access to insurance terminals the game will quit being challenging and become downright uplayable once you reach the upper levels.

Right now it's not an issue; but, Funcom has stated that they hope to implement a system in which towns can be taken over in the future and change sides automatically. I don't doubt the first city to be attacked will be Newland City. After that every other neutral city will start to fall as each side hungers for power and territory and because us neutrals seem to be hated so much.

If that happens the only neutral places to left to save will be out of the way outposts that will be inaccessible to low level neutrals, if any. That means that neutrals need the ability to save at Omni and Clan insurance terminals, which to me seems fair and reasonable. Or at least, some neutral towns should be allowed to have 100% gas.

We'll defend our homes as best we can, but, honestly, how much can such a small part (5%?) of the population will be able to do about a city take over.

Fractaloon

[_______________Xente]

Originally posted by Dr Franken


If that happens the only neutral places to left to save will be out of the way outposts that will be inaccessible to low level neutrals, if any. That means that neutrals need the ability to save at Omni and Clan insurance terminals, which to me seems fair and reasonable. Or at least, some neutral towns should be allowed to have 100% gas.

We'll defend our homes as best we can, but, honestly, how much can such a small part (5%?) of the population will be able to do about a city take over.

Well, they'll probably just work something else out - I doubt they will let any of the startup areas get taken over, as they have apartments and newbie areas as well.

--Xente

[fractaloon]

Well, they'll probably just work something else out - I doubt they will let any of the startup areas get taken over, as they have apartments and newbie areas as well.

Yeah, they probably will figure something out. But it'll be fun to maybe toss some ideas around before it happens. Who knows one or to may actually be good and used by funcom!

Maybe it's unrealistic, but making the cities 100% gas would be nice. I wonder how much those gas machines cost. Maybe the citizens of Newland City can raise enough money to buy the equipment. I don't see why that would be objectionable to Funcom. It may not fit neatly into story plans; but, if Funcom said it cost 1 billion credits it may make for some interesting oppotunities to raise money. We can sell "Wold's Finest" chocolates. At a buck a peace we only gotta sell 1 billion!

Making the guards harder will make the cities safer, but it will still be very possible to take them over. Not the best idea in my opinion.

Hmm, allow neutrals to take out insurance at all insurance terminals. That would solve part of the problem, but we'll still need to shop!

Related to that idea would be to let players help assist guards during an attack so that it's harder to take a city. This has been suggested over and over by neutrals, Clans, and Omni. It's really frustrating to see a guard getting attacked and knowing you can't do a thing but watch. It's pretty unrealistic if you ask me.

Fractaloon

[_______________Chill]

Neutral guards should waste clan and omni players who attack neutral citizens in front of them. Right now they do exactly the opposite, lame.

[__________Chadow cat]

How a bout this idea

Open all shops for neutral

No dont jump the gun, let me finish

Open all shops but when a neutral buys somthing in a omni/clan shop add a fee (5-10%) add it to the insurance terminals as well, and the neutrals gett access to all areas (att a price) and all omni/clan traders are happe.

As fore attacking

Tell me, if your country happend to be between too countrys att ware (aka neutral) what would you do when they decided to take the battle to your town, killing your police (guards), friends and family because they are not on ther side

1, stand by and do nothing
or
2, pick up a gun and fight back

chadowcat
neutral and proud of it

[______________Windie]

that if the intended advantage of being neutral (intended that is) was that they were committed to neither side, a step in the right direction would be to make it harder for omni/clan people to change sides.

Also, why are all the neutral territories up by the clan cities? I've always wondered that.

[___________Catalyste]

Originally posted by Xente


....they have chosen not to get involved. Nor will they every get involved in the story, because they have no interest in being in the story. The problems you see about being neutral are in fact that things that make you neutral.

If you truly think the conflict is pointless and should end, then grab some friends, start a faction (clan or omni), and get to work! Then clan leaders will listen to you, and so will Omni leaders, and you can make a difference. Once you realize that your alignment isn't some great moral stance, you'll be fine.

----Xente

I am afraid I kinda have to agree with Xente on this one for those with problems being neutral, if you don't like it, you have choices...Neutral is an option, and is a part of Rubi-Ka for a reason. Note that I am neutral, and I am NOT complaining (well ok, I want to fly, see other posts). But if you want to be in the story, just jump in, Neutral, Clan, or Omni! It's YOUR decision, sit back, or go for it. I have leaders on both sides I have met,and they DO listen to me, but not because I am Neutral, but because of what I represent as a person, I am a pacifist to some extent, but I am FAR from passive. I AM involved! My nickname was given to me before I came to Rubi-Ka and so it has stuck. I am having a BALL, and so I have very little that is an irritation to me as a neutral, it was MY choice, and it is my choice to stay or change. I am motivate to make use of what is here, and I am not busy looking at what "Everyone else has" that I don't. I even have some friends that have gone back and forth between Omni and Clan, and they rue the day they decided not to be neutral any more (hmmm)...

It's attitude, and drive, people! Life anywhere is what you make it, let it pass you by if you wish, or not, its all up to you.

P.S. I Like not firing first, I just wish that guy who claims I shot him in cold blood would get a clue... :-P

[Cosmik]

In reply to the original post -

1. There are no plans to allow Neutrals the use of Omni-Tek or clan terminals. Omni-Tek and the Clans have chosen to not let Neutrals purchase merchandise through their channels, and prefer to keep their spoils for themselves. It's simply not to the neutral's advantage. It's one of the recruiting tools both Omni-Tek and the clans use to get neutrals to join up with them.

2. No plans to change it right now. We do undertand that it causes some weird situations (such as watching friends die), and will look into different ways to prevent those.

3. Yes, neutrals will be involved in the storyline more. How, you ask? Well, you'll have to keep watching to story. It wouldn't be a story if I told you now.

[______________Scorus]

I wish I had printed out all the pre and early launch literature of Funcom's, so I could directly quote their intent, which they themselves seem to easily forget.

There were several interviews with the designers and they made it very, very clear that they were designing this game to be a black hat vs. white hat game with two sides. They said, specifically, that players could be neutral but that the game was not being designed for them and they came out and said that they would not have as much fun. Neutrals were really just a category for new people to decide which side they wanted to join, therefore there would be no neutral guilds and you wouldn't be able to become neutral once you had picked a side.

Since then, Funcom has strayed from their original vision and added more neutral stuff. The result has been a hybrid where from certain angles it looks like being a neutral can be just as fun and success-laden as picking a side. But the deeper you dig the more you see that it is not the case now and probably will never be.

Scorus

[____________stafford]

Like in real life, the people in the middle of a conflict are the easiest targets from both sides. I agree with the ban on using OT/Clan machines, but still don't understand about them not being able to attack first - will this be lifted soon?

PS. Cosmik - any word on agent fixes?!

[_______________Rypht]

Cosmik, I wish you guys would really make up your minds and put out a firm stance somewhere on the main community site (i.e. not the forums, somewhere that you don't have to dig to find) and once and for all lay out exactly what neutrals can and can't expect. I know I've talked to you guys about needing official information before, this is just another case of this, unless you guys put something up in an official manner that is not up for discussion on the boards, these debates will never end.

For example, you say:

Omni-Tek and the Clans have chosen to not let Neutrals purchase merchandise through their channels, and prefer to keep their spoils for themselves.

now if you go back far enough in the official game (faction) news, to the time when neutrals were getting slaughtered left and right, this was taken from the Jul 22 Rubi-ka times

Omni-Tek requires all their employees to treat the neutral part of the population with the respect they deserve for wanting to stay out of the conflict. To entice even more people to oppose the company, would just be plain idiocy.

A lot of the planet's economy is driven by neutrals. Mistreating, and attacking them is only asking for trouble later on, hurting that very economy Omni-Tek has come to depend upon.

you can quite easily see how we can be confused by the messages that have been sent to us in the past and the present.

[___________Catalyste]

Originally posted by Scorus
I wish I had printed out all the pre and early launch literature of Funcom's, so I could directly quote their intent, which they themselves seem to easily forget.

There were several interviews with the designers and they made it very, very clear that they were designing this game to be a black hat vs. white hat game with two sides. They said, specifically, that players could be neutral but that the game was not being designed for them and they came out and said that they would not have as much fun. Neutrals were really just a category for new people to decide which side they wanted to join, therefore there would be no neutral guilds and you wouldn't be able to become neutral once you had picked a side.

Since then, Funcom has strayed from their original vision and added more neutral stuff. The result has been a hybrid where from certain angles it looks like being a neutral can be just as fun and success-laden as picking a side. But the deeper you dig the more you see that it is not the case now and probably will never be.

Scorus

You are right, Scorus. Perhaps in its inception, the designers did not expect the game to progress quite the way it has, and has made adjustments along the way, rather than trying to squelch or stonewall everything the players are coming up with. Its a happy medium, and prolly keeps more people playing

[___________Shadowolf]

Originally posted by Cosmik
In reply to the original post -

1. There are no plans to allow Neutrals the use of Omni-Tek or clan terminals. Omni-Tek and the Clans have chosen to not let Neutrals purchase merchandise through their channels, and prefer to keep their spoils for themselves. It's simply not to the neutral's advantage. It's one of the recruiting tools both Omni-Tek and the clans use to get neutrals to join up with them.

2. No plans to change it right now. We do undertand that it causes some weird situations (such as watching friends die), and will look into different ways to prevent those.

3. Yes, neutrals will be involved in the storyline more. How, you ask? Well, you'll have to keep watching to story. It wouldn't be a story if I told you now.

First of all, thanks for a reply, Cosmik, hope you look in this thread again so that you can see some responses made. So, I will address your response point-by-point .

1. Alright, fine, I can see where you're comming from. Still, post by Rypht quotes an article that I wanted to quote, where Omni-Tek does indeed sais that they want to trade with neutrals, as such we are getting a contredictory response here. but honestly, I can live without being able to shop at all shops, that's what friends are for. However, what about scan terminals? Are those going to be available for neutrals regardless of their location? You would have to come up with a real good reason if not . I can think of a many explanations why they should. For example, both Omni-Tek and Clans value life, right? So why would they restrict somebody from insuring their life, unless they are their enemy? Also, I can understand why Omnis and Clanners can shop in our shops, that's our ownly profit that is needed to survive the war (too bad we never see any of that money). That's fine. But, how can you explain that we allow them to scan at our terminals? If you come up with any reason why we should not be able to scan at Omni or Clan terminals, it automatically applies to ours. So, either make it so that they can't scan at ours, which does not do anyone much good, except for being fair, or allow us to scan at all insurance terminals. Just a slight advantage, but pleasent.

2. Well, all we can do here is give you some suggestions . I'll think of some and encourage all other neutrals here to help Cosmik and FunCom find a good olution for this. The only one I have at this moment, is that if anyone from your team is attacked, you can attack that person even if you're a neutral. Not sure if it already works that way.

3. Great. I was sure that you'd say that, I just wanted to get an official confirmation . And no, please don't tell us how, discovering will be more fun. Unless the only envolvement in the story will be that out cities will be taken over.

And now one more serious issue that I would like to address. Neutral guilds have been implemented, thank you. Thre is now a number of neutral guilds. Why don't we have a neutral guild channel? it would make sense to have it and wouldn't hurt anyone.

Thanks in advance and hope to hear your response.

[___________Catalyste]

Originally posted by Johan


You've got a point. IF neutrals had MANY advantages there wouldn't be that many omni and clan anymore.

Meaby make it that NEUTRAL TRADERS can save anywhere and bring omni dungeon items to clan and vice versa.

Could be good for the economy.

Wow, Neutral Traders can save anywhere?

[___________Stercoral]

I do not understand a few things. If neutrals were planned to be not so important in the game, and only a "start" for some players to let them choose between Omni and Clan, why are we able to rise till level 300 !???
Logic says to me, FC should have put a level limitation. You may stay neutral till level 15 or 30 or... but you never will be able to rise indefinitely. The same idea was applicated to the choice of your side. You may change from Omni to Clan, without any penalty (am I wrong ?) but you will never be able to be neutral again.
That's another question, why ??? this is not logic, not at all, unless you accept it as a way to keep the "neutral community" (look at the " ") low.

If the basis of neutrality is wrong, it's now time to change it, in the way many neutrals proposed, here Shadowolf of Blade Corp.

I posted somewhere else my opinion. What neutrals needs to is different advantages (or just differences, just relax, calm down !).

In roleplaying, in commerce, in chatting, in contact, in travelling (we already have this advantage), hiding, spying, story, events, objects (why not ? I think I already saw a few object neuters only, but I may be wrong)...


To end I paste here a reply of Cz, to a mail I sent to FC (similar to the one of Cosmik here above).

"As for the issues with neutrals, I will break it up into different subjects:
- The use of shops: Omni-Tek will only let their own employees
have access to the equipment they can supply, and the same counts for the clans. The fact
that you have to join to get access to it is one of the main recruiting 'weapons' of both
Omni-Tek and clans. There are also more shops for Omni-Tek and clans, than for neutrals,
simply because they have more resources. - Tokens: Tokens is an award/reward system
used by Omni-Tek and clans, and they are able to because they have a huge organisation
supporting it. Neutrals do not have this luxury, and thus have no common and efficient
award/reward system. - PvP: The fact that neutrals can't attack first in PvP is simply
because they are neutral. They are not meant to take direct part in the conflict. At the
time a neutral attack someone from one side of the conflict they have forsworn their
neutrality. Thank you for the feedback and questions, and please do not hesitate to
write us again if you have more. -- Regards, Cz Funcom Community Team