Wishlist Discussion: Creation Items

[Ebag333]

Over the next few days/weeks/months/years ShadowGod and I will be updating and trimming the wishlist to reflect current MP concerns, thoughts, comments, and suggestions.

In order to facilitate this, we will be posting a series of topics to elicit some discussion on specific issues.

We want your comments and thoughts, but request that a few basic rules be followed.

1. No flaming. Lets keep it clean, folks.
2. Stay on topic. Don't delve off into some obscure reference that has nothing to do with the topic on hand.
3. Feel free to suggest anything you can think of, but please try and keep the suggestions realistic. For example, getting a new 1HB weapon may be reasonable. A 1HB with double Aimed Shot, Full Auto, and Sneak Attack is not.

Please remember that not all of your suggestions will make it into the wishlist. But SG and I will personally read each and every one of them, and the ones that we see that fit what MP's in general are looking for (and remember, not all feedback comes through the forums), we'll be sure to include.



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Meta-Physicists are one of two professions who use spawned items (the other obviously being Fixers). With 16.3 and 16.4.4 we got two new 2HB staves with pet buffs attached to them (for the heal and mezz pets).

Do these fit with the wishlist item about extending the creation weapons?

Are MP's still interested (or use) creation weapons, or is this a dead line?

If any MP's out there use the different weapons, what feeback/suggestions do you have?

Creation Nanos:
All of Creation Weapons/shields really needs a revamp/update to them. And possibly a new Creation Line of Nanos for buffing. And to make it more wanted/needed at higher levels, when the MP becomes more reliant on weapon damage.

Creations to improve pet performance:
- Improve Attack pet. Eg. higher AR, more dmg.
- Improve Heal pet. Eg. better heals, area heals.
- Improved Mezz pet. Eg. higher AR, area mezz.
- Improved root/snare/mezz/charm resistance for PvP.
- Pet Init.
- Pet heal delta.
- Combo of above.
The main purpose of these are to move the focus back on the pets and away from the MP. Should be like the NT cyberdeck, kind of, no fighting, only nano casting possble.
If there are both right and left hand versions, it will be possible to make combos or double the effect on one pet.
The most important part is the the gain on pet(s) is big enough to be better/equal to current setup with pets+normal weapons.
General buffs from these for the MP could be:
- Add.All.Def.
- Nano dmg multiplier.
- Nano init.

[Dancingrage]

The line is alive and well for the 1hb red shields...still in use even among the 220 set, though I'm sure many will agree that shield needs a bit of an improvement.

The rest of the shield lines are not often used if ever because the buffs they provide (blue shield = nanocost, which we usually have in spades anyways, gold = HP and PARRY/RIPOSTE, currently disabled skills) aren't of any real use to a 220 MP, and have limited usefulness even during the levels you would be looking at casting them.

The pre-SL creation weapon lines are not at all effective in any other playstyle than purely RK, i.e. froobs, and only the red shield line sees any real use outside of RK. The weapons created have low minimum damage, the procs that both 1hb/2hb weapons have are fairly weak, and especially in light of the 2hb support staves, woefully behind the mark for what an MP should be using at the level they can cast and equip the weapon in question.

I will say that the creation weapons have the potential to be some of our most powerful weapons, since none have a max beneficial skill, even the recent 2hb staves, and rely 80% on Time and Space, usually one of our strongest skills, for an attack rating. The idea of having different weapons or shields to handle different situations is an excellent one, but needs to be brought up to the needs of the MP in the modern day.

I don't think there will be any 1hb/2hb weapons implemented that totally remove the MP from the fight. The initial reaction to the first iteration of the support staves proves this, and also the fact that any attempt to try to remove the MP from the fight and buffing the attack pet to counteract that will probably be even more scrutinized than the initial look at the support staves.

At the very least, I will suggest that the 1hb weapon line be brought up to par with the 2hb support line, and examination of the shield lines and what could be done with them to present them as viable options, as opposed to every 1hb MP using the red shield simply because it's the option that isn't broken.

Suggestions for shield lines:

Blue: Nanodamage/Nano Resist/Nano Init
Gold: More HP than current or adding a Heal over Time effect upon equipping similar to that found on Jeruru's Oscillating Ligature.

AC's for all 3 lines should be improved to match similar gear that would be encountered at the level, as well as extensions to the three lines.

Damages on the weapon lines should be re-evaluated to be brought up to par with weapons used currently, bringing minimum damage up and updating the DoT proc that both weapons have.

A suggestion for new creation lines: Back armor items would be a good spot, since we have been asking for back armor lines for a while now, both for the visual aspect (MP creation weapons, regardless of functionality, look really cool!) as well as providing another option for the 2hb creation weapon using MP. Buffs and ACs should be reasonably comparable with items likely to be used at around the title level of the caster.

Possibilities for back armor:

Red/Gold/Blue: Extensions of the various shield lines, comparable buffs to the shield lines, with AC's comparable to similar ql backarmor of the chosen/faithful/Ofab type (or an extrapolation if that is not the case) Could use nanoskills as a requirement to equip as opposed to other stats that MPs normally use for equipping gear (Int/Psy, etc), just remember that MPs only get 4 green nanoskills while PM/SI are light blue and do not max out as high.

I had remarked in another thread but I'll reiterate here that the 1hb weapons could be used to buff nanodamage as they're lacking in the nanocost department. Need not be much, but enough to make it an option.

Creation item times should be brought more into line with other summoned weapon/armor gear or buffs we use (composite teachings/mastery/infuses) that last at least 4 hours and in the case of Composite Mochams lasts up to 8. A number of pvm raids can last longer than the current 2 hours that said creation items last, and recasting these items in the middle of a raid can basically be called suicide, and is often a major hindrance in pvm play.

Think that sums my thoughts up at the moment.

[shadowgod]

think this is in original wishlist...

a Creation Bow.

idealy, it would use our own nanopool for "arrows".

maybe we should have a creation pistol as well?

[Dancingrage]

I'm totally for that, but dunno how well FC would see it in their grand scheme of "what the MP should be like."

Ideally, I'd like to see the creation weapons and the like tuned to where MPs can look at swapping out loadouts per the situation more than they do currently, for more flexibility in how an MP plays to counteract the static nature of endgame pets.

It's ideally possible to have it set up so that a creation weapon has "self-supplied" ammo and simply takes a small bite out of your nanopool when fired, thus opening up the option to have the pistol or bow creations, meshes and color schemes already in the game can be used or modified slightly to make it work and perhaps putting a DD proc to replace the specials lost.

Example Creation Pistol would be something a few hairs under the top ql AI pistol for normal damage, perhaps equivalent to ql275, packing 2 procs to replace fling/burst with proc rates that would be comparable to having 6 second fling recharge and whatever burst recharge would be deemed effective. (Being procs, would require tuning to where the damage dealt over a larger period of time would tend to average out.)

The Creation bow would have one large damage proc with a low proc %, similar to the AS special currently found on the Tigress, damage similar to the Starfall perk action Supernova. Damage on the bow itself, however, is gonna be something to be discussed at length: Tigress is an unusual case as bows go, using that as a template for damage on a weapon that ideally will have a much higher AR may be a very bad idea, and will lead to everyone else screaming "nerf" very quickly.

Both of these having procs with similar effect would counteract the lack of specials creation weapons have, as well as the fact that weapon specific perk actions to date cannot be used with creation weapons (note the Blunt Mastery perkline actions)

THe damage type dealt by these creations should either be Disease AC (poison damage) or another type of damage, better if it's a rarely-seen or used damage type like radiation or chemical, to give the MP options in terms of damage.

[Ebag333]

While I'm a pistol user and would *LOVE* to see more MP oriented pistols, I highly doubt that FC will be adding any more pistol loving for MP's.

Previously pistols were a "one size fits all" for all support professions (docs, crats, engies, advies, etc) and for a few attack oriented profs (IE: soldies).

FC's been working hard lately it seems (and this is purely my opinion and in no way reflects FC's) to move the different professions into different weapon roles.

For example, the new soldie rifle replacing dual pistols that were so common. Engies being moved back to grenade. Traders getting more focus on shotguns. MP's and the new bow.

Personally, I think this is probably a good thing. While it does tend to make things a bit more cookie cutterish, it simplifies a lot of aspects (such as balancing).

Excellent post, by the way Dancingrage.

[windcaster]

well i've been eye balling 1hb for quite some time.. the shields are nice esp SoA, i also like the skylight shield..

i think an addition to these shields would be a good idea..

a lot of people see mp's as dark, evil beings.. personally i would like to see armor and weapons that give to paths.. a darker more demonic style giving offense boosts.. while a more angelic set can be used for defensive boosts.

i mentioned that once before at the idea of new MP wings.

as for weapons the 1hb/2hb weapon line is kinda lame.. theres really no reason to use them unless you want AR for perk.. cause speed, specials, and dmg is lacking.
so a new 1hb/2hb creation weapon that could actually compete against a real weapon would be nice. it should have brawl and fast attack, sneak attack would be nice but not a requirement, a proc on both shields and club/staffs would be nice.. defensive proc on the shield that could maybe cast a small absorb? 500-1k? and a offensive proc as has been on many of the 1hb/2hb weapons before it.

bow/pistol creation weapons.. well my personal opinion is it should stay 1hb/2hb
however i know a lot of people would like to see it so i do have one suggestion..

instead of making the ammo nano pool or self supplying.. make it so you have to spawn the ammo.

basicly it would have say 1min cast time.. it would spawn 5000 shots, the ammo could maybe be in the form of a charged source crystal or something.

[viandante]

I've tested a lot the 1hb/2hb weapon lines in my MPs. The 2hb weapon line does not par in damage or anything with the needs of an MP, even at low levels (I am talking about creations remember).

The 1hb weapon line is perfect for both leveling and twinking untill tl4 because of the AAD added in the red shields and the low IPs used. You can use a bit more IP to have a huge AR and equip a 1hb staff and you get a bit of damage too.

I've also played in BS, teamed and soloed for hours with a 220 MP using Shield of Asmodian+Gold Acantophis+Metaing's Improved Glacial Lance/Sacrificial Shielding+Procs. The attack rating is huge (from an MP view), you can get easily to 2200 or more, and 200 AAD is nice but it really does not pay. The damage you deal is MUCH less than using pistols or bow, the AR boost is not enough to get much more hits (and the lowered attack speed does not help either) and our perks don't hit much more so.

PVP: Lack of specials makes us just a headless chicken, we can't do damage, we might survive a bit more (not that 200 AAD makes use inmortal...) I've doubt this can be solved, since as we (at least I) asked for better pets and more pet damage and so, they gave us the bow.
PVM: We need damage, so pistols, 1hb normal weapons and bow are the way to go. (They are 3 different play styles that have to be played different to get the DD). The creation weapons need: higher speed to land procs, higher minimum damage, better procs)
Soloing: The same with pvm and a better shield (I know some level 100 MP than can self SoA)

The idea of more creations (like armor) might be good in the colorful way (look, he can fly with those wings) but I don't see it as a real option unless they are really, really nice. Today we can get easy to equip good armors without much effort (just look at ofab)

The actual creations will not be changed, it is easier to get them at lower levels than before and that is making them work, but some weapons can be made for tl5-7 MPs to be used.

Edit: forgot to say, more duration, 2 hours is not much for a 220

[Dancingrage]

Just de-buried (don't think it was actually necroed..yet) my old brain-storming thread and once I get a chance to read it over in depth tomorrow I'll look at seeing if some of the specific suggestions I had regarding creations in that list should be tossed in for consideration.

[DaviasI]

Extend the AAD 1hb shield line.

Make a 3rd and 4th 2hb staff. The third one buffs the attack pet and the fourth one is a combo of all three (with higher damage of course) that is level locked. Possibly requiring a tradeskill process.

[Ebag333]

Make a 3rd and 4th 2hb staff. The third one buffs the attack pet and the fourth one is a combo of all three (with higher damage of course) that is level locked. Possibly requiring a tradeskill process.

I believe the healing staff already lets you use the healing and mezz pet buffs together, so it'd make sense that the 3rd one (buffing attack pet) would combine all three, rather than a 4th doing so.

[Spart]

what about creation ranged weapons?

just only started thinking about it after rule number 3 with the no 1hb weap with AS/FA.

Could probably see pistols with fling/burst that would be usable by pistol MPs.

(go ahead and moderate if you werent intending on ranged weapons)

[Dancingrage]

It's not that we wouldn't LIKE to have creation ranged weapons, and that's come up a few different times, but more along the lines like, 'Would FC think that fits what they think of the MP profession?'

Creation bows may be possible in the future, and would be a very nice touch, though I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing any creation pistols anytime soon...but it would be nice. TS tends to net us a much higher attack rating than any singular weapon skill we have, even at 80%.

I'm not sure if specials are intrinsically not compatible with creation weapons or not (doubt it, fixers summon up all sorts of weapons all the time...correction, they're CAPABLE of summoning 'em, just never bother.), but even if they're not, they can have procs on them to make up for that to some extent.

This being the wishlist, we can dream up all the ranged creation weapons we could ever want, but the chances of them being implemented are truthfully close to zero...doesn't stop us from dreaming, tho, does it?

[shadowgod]

It's not that we wouldn't LIKE to have creation ranged weapons, and that's come up a few different times, but more along the lines like, 'Would FC think that fits what they think of the MP profession?'

well.. everything but our existing creations are ranged. so its kind odd that they're not ranged to begin with.

but really.. i think the current creations were really meant to be buffing items, and not to seriously be used in combat.

keeping with such theme, i think any melee creations should have some sorta buffing... the ranged dont need to be.. but who knows what Fc will allow.

[viandante]

Where is the buffing in those creations? Not meaning to be rude but that buffing idea is just yours shadowgod. Their where combat weapons long ago. They give mods that might have been nice back them but not any more because nanocasting is not the direction where MPs have gone.

Just look at the "buffs", nanocost, nano and damage procs. They are great for the nuking and support mp and they give a nice AR without having to waste much IPs on weapons. Yes, these items are not designed to be the best for direct weapons combat but their modifiers where pvp and pvm wise and they could keep a nice damage over time back them. Of course, that's looking back 5 years ago when many of them where created and not now. Most of the MP equipment and nanos have not been updated until the last two patches of LE and is now that we are getting some of it done, not the creations yet (or ever).

The shields are uber for those MPs that want to get into the fight. Just the ranged MP (that was probably not the original idea of FunCom of what an MP should be) is not helped by this buffs.

@Klod

It's ok you got your own idea of an mp and you might not like the pistol priest or mystic but I do think it fits great with the futuristic game we play and there are many fiction novels, movies and toons that support it. You can summon anything but you have to take the right pill for that. Red or Blue?

[shadowgod]

Where is the buffing in those creations? Not meaning to be rude but that buffing idea is just yours shadowgod. Their where combat weapons long ago. They give mods that might have been nice back them but not any more because nanocasting is not the direction where MPs have gone.

Just look at the "buffs", nanocost, nano and damage procs. They are great for the nuking and support mp and they give a nice AR without having to waste much IPs on weapons. Yes, these items are not designed to be the best for direct weapons combat but their modifiers where pvp and pvm wise and they could keep a nice damage over time back them. Of course, that's looking back 5 years ago when many of them where created and not now. Most of the MP equipment and nanos have not been updated until the last two patches of LE and is now that we are getting some of it done, not the creations yet (or ever).

The shields are uber for those MPs that want to get into the fight. Just the ranged MP (that was probably not the original idea of FunCom of what an MP should be) is not helped by this buffs.

dont go flaming in a suggestions thread. you complain they're not there... and then proceed to talk about them. just cause they're not "good enough" today doesnt mean they dont exist.

EDIT: since i know you're not actually going to find this information yourself..

i dug out the old creations stats table http://hacksess.com/~shadowgod/ao/mp/creations.html

[viandante]

I might be bitter, but I was not flaming or I had not that intention and that is what i stated at the start of the thread. Those are not buffs.

A damage proc is not a buff.
Damage numbers where high minimum and high top damages five years ago.
They do give a nanocost and some nano but that wasn't great even back them.
They give us a Huge attack rating.

If you don't understand this them look at this "buffing" items:

Buffing bow

Buffing 2he

Buffing pistol

Creations are outdated, not buffing items. Thats my point. Not all here is black or white, that is why I explained it more in detail and you took it as a flame. Some creations where uber when created and some where garbage from the start like many other AO items.

Flaming you would be something like this:

I did flamed you before before LE when I told you that you was only holding one idea of what the MP should be and not defending the interests of all the MPs as a whole. I still believe it. <--- You see? this is a flame.

[Ebag333]

From Wikipedia:

Buff is a term generically used in many MMORPGs to describe an effect (usually cast as a spell) which beneficially enhances the target Player. There are many types of buffs, for example:

• Increase the physical attributes of the target (stats). These would allow the target to wear heavier armor by increasing strength, or make the target more dextrous or intelligent.
• Increase the movement rate of the target. Often this is extremely useful in very large game worlds, allowing the target to spend less time traveling. Examples of this buff are EverQuest's Spirit of Wolf (SoW) or to a lesser extent Aspect of the Pack in World of Warcraft.
• Change how the target interacts with the world. This may include levitation to make the target float above the terrain and avoid pits, vision enhancements like ultravision, or water breathing for traveling or fighting underwater.
• Give the target additional hit points (HP), magic points (MP), or increase the regeneration of either HPs or MPs. An examples of this kind of buff are EverQuest's Avatar (increases hit points and armor class), Koadic's Endless Intellect (increases base mana and mana regeneration), and Regrowth (increases hit point regeneration), and World of Warcraft's Power Word: Fortitude and Arcane Intellect.
• Increase or decrease the target's physical size in the game. This kind of buff may allow more PCs to fit in a small area, or make a main tank easier to see and target because of an increased size.
• Augment the elemental resistance of the target. These would be used when traveling in hazardous regions like lava fields (fire resist), or when combatting MOBs who primarily attack with cold.
• Increase the attack speed of the target ('haste'). This allows for greater damage done to the MOB the target is fighting in the same amount of time.

(Emphasis mine)

When you're in a mission, and the team leader says "okay, now buff up", I suppose you don't ever ask for HP/AC/Web, right? 'cause those aren't buffs from what you just said.

A buff is anything that improves a stat, regardless of the stat it improves. Yes, a proc is not a buff (unless of course it procs on you and buffs your stat, rather than being an offensive proc), but SG was talking about two different things. Buffs, and procs. He wasn't (as far as I saw) suggesting that the procs were buffs.

Between all the different creation weapons, we actually get quite a bit.

AC's
nano resist
max nano
nano cost modifier
parry
max health
reflect fire damage
defense modifier
Nano init

That's quite a bit of different buffs that you can get. And yes, they are buffs.


But seriously, argueing whether to call them "buffs" or just "items that have high AR and happen to have a few items on them that improve select statistics based on the item" is just semantics.

This is a wishlist thread where we welcome any suggestions, as long as they're halfway reasonable. Flaming people because they're using different terminology (or view an item in a different way than you) is pointless and doesn't do anything to help.

[viandante]

Sorry ebag333, I was not trying to argue that they don't give some buffs. I was just pointing that they are not only buffing items as shadowdog believes:

but really.. i think the current creations were really meant to be buffing items, and not to seriously be used in combat.

The Healing and Mesmerizing Staff are probably examples of Shadow's suggestions and that has not make them a real viable weapon for us. And remember that the damage for them was added later, after a lot of flaming from the MP community.

[viandante]

And as I see you think i flamed, I reply to you, I didn't he, took it personal.

[Dancingrage]

Lemme wrangle this damn thread back on track before more arguing goes on.

Dug up my old ideas thread (probably still sitting on first page as I speak.) and as I was reviewing it, ran into an interesting little idea for a new shield line, and while most everyone has probably read it already I'll reiterate it here since this is the wishlist consideration thread.

The 1hb mirror shield idea I'd had waay back when still seems feasible even now, having a minor limited reflecting shield that buffers some of the damage incoming to some degree, though having it dual-wieldable seems kinda over-the-top at this point. Under the assumption that the Shield of Asmodian tops out at 30 Reflect Fire AC and that extensions to that line would drive the reflect AC even higher (shield ql is 199, plenty of room in the shadowlevels for much improvement, and assuming doubled requirements for casting could even go up to 60 fire reflect and some insane amount of AAD) it wouldn't be as much over the top to have one shield that topped out at 30 reflect to all acs at 220, and starting out at 5-10 reflect AC in the early levels, at the 165 marker I was picturing this line starting at, when SL and AI content can simply breathe on the MP and wipe 'em out.

One thing I had thought about and is coming more and more to mind is perhaps having creation weapons start leaning more towards the Time and Space requirement than the 1hb/2hb requirements...possibly shifting the ratio from 80/20 to perhaps 90/10 or less if possible. 1hb and 2hb, heck, ALL of our weaponskills are not easy to come by, and the idea I had for the MP in terms of future development would be putting those oft-neglected creations to use to give to the profession what others have in spades in buffs they can just cast on themselves and walk away. Raising the AR boost from TS as well as buffering the hit from the weaponskill requirement will keep folks from screaming quite so much if/when new weapons come out, and while we won't be hitting with the same AR that some major DD professions get, we won't be looking at AR that would be considered laughable by every other profession out there. From a profession perspective, these aren't random sticks we're picking up and swinging, they are actually part of our physical bodies we're using in these items.