Post No 3413 on Evades v AAD

[accelerator]

After a long argument with an MA orgmate, and apparently that the MA forums have it all worked out, he suggested I get some advice from my fixer friends.

He believes that AAD is exactly like AAO (ie +1 to evade/dodge/duck checks) although I dont buy it. Personally I'd go straight evades everytime, never been impressed by GA4 fixers in TL5 as my AR would normally eat through them, CSS fixers would be another matter. Also now having gone through a small perk reset and only losing Defensive Stance 10 to 0 I wasn't noticing much of a change to what I was evading (although this was exclusively PvE, not suggesting a setup that doesnt have it).

Firstly could i get a confirmation that no one knows how aad definitvely works.

Secondly, I'd like people opinions and preferences given a choice between evades/aad.

[Gabocus]

aad is 1/1 to evads im pretty sure, because thats how it checks for perks and it seems logical

[Threezey]

i don't believe it either.

for perks, maybe that's the case, but for regular hits.... i don't think so

[howlino]

Imo AAD is only usefull for perks it adds 0 to evades.

[hasufuel]

Greedy, when i think about the time my former froob fixer got his ga4 on your theory makes me laugh. I am pretty sure AAD adds to evasion checks somehow. I used to slay these rk dynas lvl.120-150. Whith ga it was so damn easy to kill even 200+ dynas. And I lost some evades, cause I had to take of my Apocalypse Armor of to get on the GA.

Well, similar in pvp - I evaded ~90% of the hits. But when someone nsd'ed me or drained the ga to 0% I died within seconds.
It's not like css fixers got no aad without ga. Def Stance + SWS add a lot of aad. With Crit Decrease from def stance which cant be used with ga and evades from css one might perform better then ga fixer. Nevertheless aad makes the ga fixer evade a lot.

If u don't belive it, try shooting on a naked fixer and afterwards on the same fixer with his ga. 10 bullets should prove he evades better with ga, even if it adds nothing to the evades.

[Jonalethian]

I have a Foremans GA4 fixer... long story short I ended up doing full ipr and didn't put any ip to any evade skills yet.
He's working just as well as before when evades were maxed in addition to the GA.

My theory is that 1 aad = 1 evade at full def but it loses effectiviness much less than evades when moving slider to aggressive direction

[Pomidor]

there is no such thing in game like 1 AAD. U can see 100 aad 1000 Aad, why?

Here some math.


1000 evades = 1000 evades

500 AAD/10 = 50 Add deffensive skill... percent

500 AAD = 50 % Defence for attack check

Means u have 1500 evades vs attack: 1000 + 50%

I will try to explain it as faar I know this topic, since I got GA Fixer at 110 and CSS fixer at 110 and CSS soldier at 118 and 218 Advie and did over 1 month of test to get this myth out.

GA IV fixer has 1000 evades for dodge range and hes useing AAD imps which adds 360 AAD. GA is 2400 AAD. Total 2760 AAD. IF it would Add 1/1 evades means he would have total of evades at 3760. Considering my other fixer has 1230 AR means i would hit him 0.32 times which is 1/3 ratio being both on Full def. Yet it aint so.
( please note now that AAD stats are channing depens on agg/deff slider setup - but about it a bit later ).

I did 100 hits on GA fixer and i hit GA 23 times, which means its 23/100 so its like 2.3/10 ratio. Now lets count my way:

1000 dodge range + 2760 AAD ( in fact) 276 percent Add all Defance ( to be more exact its 270 since AAD is always countet in 10 ) = 3330 Evades TOTAL.
Its like this: 1000 dodge + 270% = 3700 + 30% ( from full def setup slider) = 4810

Agg deff slider is setuped on such base: Full def is +30 % Add all Def. then its 20 and 10 and 0 then 10 - AAD 20 - AAD then 30- AAD ( slider bar doesnt affect AR or Crit chance to hit )

Again...
He was full def, and agro bar is counted as LAST part of ur AAD then its:
1000 Evades + 270% (AAD) = 3700 total evades+ 30% Full def = 4810 end number of defence check.

My AR was 1230, hes evades 4810: 1230/4810 = 0.25 chance to hit means is 2.5/10 ! Voila!

Did over 100 test on various setups characters and setup full deff and agro. Knowing this math its quite easy to calc somones evades just by trying to hit him and vice versa, u can calc somones AR by noticing hits on u ( around 20 should be enough then u multiple it by 5 ).

Now, all you ppz will say that its bullshiat cause it would bring NR on unnormous numbers. Well, sad to say but AAD doenst apply same way to NR as for Evades. Firstly when u got 3500 AAD its only (!) 350 NR 3500/100 .... and then add Add/Deff slider % check .

Math:

Base NR is 1000. AAD is 500. So 1000 + 50 = 1050 + 30% (when full def ) = 1365.

When AAD is counded as + for evades, NR is just PURE Number divided by 10... wierd but did checks for this too...

Ok, heres something to confirm it:
1. Each GA has EVADES modifier, so character woth 0 evades wont be useless with this armor
2. Perks wont land on GA, cause they got diffrent way of calc stack which is like on regular attack AR/Defence check and THEN no other stuff come to calc cause perk needs to LAND and it must be 0.5 number and in example shown above i had 0.25 ratio which AINT FULL 0.5, means perk wont even come to Evade check.
Perks work like this... and its bad, cause Easy shot I have tested 160 times ( damn half day!) on all full agg and full def and DIDNT land single TIME.
My AR on engi is 1320 and GA fixer had TOTAL Evades 7090: 1320/7090 = 0.18, yet it CAN be landed on SWS fixer with 700 AAD and 1.2k evades. ( no DOF/Limber UP). Why 0.5? Cause below this it wont get to calc, above 0.5 to 0.9 it have 50% cahnces to get to calcs and above 1 is ALWAYS calced vs defance.

Perks, like I said before will always get calced to land after 1 number and 50% chance if u got 0.5 - 0.9 ratio, below WONT get even to calc.

That might be messy, but I am 100 % positive and sure its just the way. To make it more certain i went on 75 characters vs my friend and shooted him. Then I aplyed my math and I knew exact his total evades ( i was wrong about 15 or 17), and he ran math on me same way ( we didnt knew our stats ealier) and he was even more accurate, cause he was wrong by 10 !)

Pomidor

[Aratink]

Very interesting post Pomidor. I've never seen it laid out quite as you have on the first part. It seems pretty logical and well tested to me, and by far the most reasonable explaination I've seen. Unfortunately, we have no true conformation unless someone from FC wishes to do so.

About the NR part, AAD doesn't add anything to NR against nano attacks. Even a slight bonus to NR from AAD would make all fixers the equivilant of atleast NR1. AAD is added in only against perk attacks that check against NR as a defensive check, such as the Champion of Nano Combat perks. That is why those perks, while usually evadeable by fixers, will still land occasionally if your defensive stance is down or you trimmed too much AAD off of your setup.

About the perks and GA....

AAD is added in after the defensive check. Even with 0 evades, the GA4 fixer has 2400+ AAD. If you have a perk that checks vs 100% Dodge Ranged, then your defensive rating against that perk is still 2400+. If your opponent doesn't have 2400ish AR, then it's still going to miss you, because it's going to be his (TL5 estimates here) 1800ish AR vs your 0 evade+2400 AAD. He's still not going to perk you.

[Monkeyninja]

Wow pomp has done it i think o.O that pretty much explained my whole expeiance with ga o.O

[Gnarrokk]

My AR was 1230, hes evades 4810: 1230/4810 = 0.25 chance to hit means is 2.5/10 ! Voila!
-----------------

so if you have more AR then his evades you would hit 100%? thats not my experience at all....so i dont think this way to calculate chanse to hit is correct.

[Arrrrg]

its something like that, but i also remember hearing that every shot has a chance to miss, just a very small one. and like with evades, something will always hit you eventually, i'm sure even a leet could hit a 220 fixer, just might take a very long time.

[Pomidor]

Firstly when u got more AR then targets Evades u got 3 % miss which is ALWAYS calculated and then u get some 0,0006 calcs end this makes u miss.
WHen Target is full def its 6% MIss too.

About perks. I landed Tracer on GA I landed other too, but that was when I did tests on certain setup and Perk check number was 0.5+ not lower.

[Gnarrokk]

hmm interesting, so if you have some crit resist and playing non evader class you could basicly reset evades?

[Pomidor]

hmm interesting, so if you have some crit resist and playing non evader class you could basicly reset evades?

Not exacly, but quite yes. At low lvls where u have HUGE AR vs mostly low or crappy evades Crits are reare unless u are Crit setupped. I did calcs and test for that aswell.

To be sure i made uber twinked into AR Trader with pistols and crit gun ( AE pistol ) ql 170. Trader lvl was 34 and with full buffs for pistols and Mochams I had over 820 AR ( with supple armor of course+ wrangler ) I was hiting Enforcer lvl 35 with around 35 or 36 dodge range useing regular shots ( AE doesnt have special attack) and was criting 1/20 1/25. Then I went for TTS and MoP and put on ql 275 scope + Kitty from Adv and started to hit the enfo: 1/12 1/9 1/8 1/11 1/10 1/3 (!) that was pure luck. Then I cancleded EP, Pistol mastery and didnt get wrangler but was keeping same Crit setup. Results were very similiar.

Why AR doesnt boost crit? Answer is SIMPLE. Cause at lvl 35 I could use AE pistol and with SO huge AR around 900 (its possible!) i would crit EACH shot at any twink. So it would be like AS each 1.13 seconds .....

[Awikun]

Great post Pat (I mean Pomidor )

After analysing your post I came to an interesting conclusion regarding when is better to increase evades and when AAD, and please correct me if I am wrong.

I compared tripple implanteded evade close combat to AAD (it is more or less the same mechanic if I use items/perks etc).

QL 200 gives 260 (26%) AAD, 210 evade (ratio 1,2380)
QL 250 gives 306 (30,6%) AAD, 247 evade (ratio 1,2388)
QL 300 gives 350 (35%) AAD, 282 evade (ratio 1,2411)

now lets assume that base evades are 500, 1000, 1500 and lets see how using AAD vs evade is better or worse depending on this base skill?

500+26% = 630 vs 500+210=710
500+30,6%= 653 vs 500+247=747
500+35% = 675 vs 500+282=782
So with low evade of 500 adding evades >adding AAD

1000+26%=1260 vs 1000+210=1210
1000+30,6%=1306 vs 1000+247=1247
1000+35%=1350 vs 1000+282=1282
so with average evades of 1000 adding AAD>adding evades

1500+26%=1890 vs 1500+210=1710
1500+30,6%=1959 vs 1500+247=1742
1500+35%=2025 vs 1500+282=1782
so with high evades of 1500 adding AAD>>>adding evades

To make a general conclusion:
with low basic evade skill anything that adds to evade skill >>> anything that add AAD
with high basic evade skill anything that adds AAD>>> anything that adds evade

Am I right?

[hasufuel]

Yeah, great post Pomidor!
Hm, maybe I have to rethink my css/cc plans.

To backup your theory it would be good to compare high fixer and ga4 fixer with a similar defensive rating.

For example:
ga Fixer with
1500*2.8 -> 4200

and sws fixer with
2200*1.91 -> 4200

If someone tests both an got a similar hit/miss ration....

[Racatti]

wtb this sticky

[IHaveHugeNick]

Nice post Pat

[Racsi]

So 220 fixers should rethink their armor setup for pvp
i mean if that calculation right its aad over evades if u got basically high evade skills hmm so im not a fixer but i'd calc if i were a fixer that using full CC instead of CSS would benefit more (maybe not inits wise)

but
if u got 2k evades without css its the same with css or with cc since full cc has 105 aad and full css got 210 evades
so if u got no ellts and u dont really need that +280 inits from full CSS
....GO FULL CC NOW!
neway just my 2 cents but again if i were a fixer i'd definately calc it

hehe and i got 2k evades on my adv so ranged advs got the same defence as mine calcing the ai armor only phun

[IHaveHugeNick]

Breaks stop being lazy and meep this thread to stickies please.