Fix Initiatives! (Except Nano)

[__________Lucid Flow]

I posted this on another board, but I actually meant to post it here.

Currently, Initiatives are broken. Why you ask? Actually, only half of the effect of initiatives are broken. The "Attack" part of a weapon that Inits effect is currently working properly. However, the "Recharge" part if it is not working correctly at all.

Why you ask?

Because the "Recharge" time is NOT effected by:

1) Buffs
2) Debuffs
3) Implants
4) Base Ability Points that add to the skill.

What this basically means is that the ONLY time Recharge of a particular weapon effects recharge is when you actually spend IP to raise the skill.

This ALSO means that a Doctors -1400 Init Debuff has no effect on the recharge of a weapon. This ALSO means that Offensive Steamrollers +114ish Inits has no effect on Recharge. This also means that The +180 From the TIM Scope has NO effect on Recharge. This also means that the +Ranged Init from Implants have NO effect on recharge.

** THIS ALSO MEANS that the -Inits from TARGETING SCOPES AND LOW LIGHT SCOPES have NO effect on Recharge speed!

Is that clear? I hope it is. Please fix this and fix this soon!

[locomdenom]

LF: are you certain base ability points are not counted? Or only points gained from BUFFS to base ability points?

[_____________Kasimir]

A) That's a theory, still not concisively proven.

B) Could be intentional..maybe recharge requires such ridiculously high inits that you're not likely to notice a difference unless the init is massively high.

C) Again, maybe it's set up so only "true" (non-buffed) points count towards init, and perhaps that's for a reason.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Kasimir
A) That's a theory, still not concisively proven.

B) Could be intentional..maybe recharge requires such ridiculously high inits that you're not likely to notice a difference unless the init is massively high.

C) Again, maybe it's set up so only "true" (non-buffed) points count towards init, and perhaps that's for a reason.

a) It's not a Theory. I have done all the tests above. My weapon has a 2.5 recharge and should be GREATLY effected by debuffs, but it's not. -1400 Ranged Init Yeilded NO change to my actual recharge time. When I did not PUMP Ranged Init, I got all the buff s and implants I could think of and it had no effect on my recharge time. And I tested with a friend using an X-3 with Recharge and the TIM Scope. No difference in recharge time.

b) That's incorrect. Inits effect Recharge much more then they do Attack, but I highly doubt +500 Inits would show no difference from buffs and yeild such a dramatic change from "IP Spent" recharge points. And also I highly doubt a Scope that removed 600 Inits would not effect recharge the way it should.

c) Maybe, but there is no reason for that. If that's the case, let us know. But I am betting it's not SUPPOSED to be that way.

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
LF: are you certain base ability points are not counted? Or only points gained from BUFFS to base ability points?

Yes, I am 100% sure. I did not even pump Ranged Init til I had nearly 110 in my Ranged Init skill from Base Abilities, and it had no effect. Maybe it's too small, but it fits the trend.

[locomdenom]

110 in RI should, in theory, produce a 1/3 second decrease in recharge time.... lag could eat that.

Dunno if this is on test or not (as I don't know where you test), but normal human reaction time ranges between 1/30 and 1/5 of a second, so reaction time+lag might have eaten this... I don't think 1/3 is enough to be certain.

Any chance of you resetting your RI, implanting/buffing the hell out of your bases, and re-testing? (Don't be too harsh, dunno if you're willing to use the reset point in this way; I assume on test you could get it back, doubt it on live...)

LF: Have you reported this as a bug?

Cosmik/Cz: could we get an answer on if this is how recharge is supposed to work, or if it's a bug?

[engelstein]

I know that doc debuffs don't affect recharge. I've accidentally debuffed myself (oops) and noticed that recharge always stays the same, though my attack gets a couple seconds slower. It stands to reason then that buffs and implants don't affect recharge either.

[nipsnaps]

There most likely is nothing to fix, because I believe it is a design question. I first thought it was weird too, but then got thinking about targeting scopes spesifically: no matter how much slower it is for you to aim (attack speed) with a scope, you can recover just as well with the scope as without (recharge speed). Thus, I believe it just is a design thing, which they haven't ever explained about (what have they ever explained? ). If one wants fancy explanations, you could imagine that modified ini represents the speed of intention-action (aiming with weapons, performing the swing etc.), and unmodified ini represent recovery speed (regaining balance and control of weapon from recoil, getting weapon back to ready position for a new swing).

Also don't forget that recharge is only 300(unmodified) ini per second decrease, instead of the 600 per second of atk. So, design your weapon choice with it in mind, 1/2.5 weapons are evil for scope usage.

[_______________Gabro]

Recharge should not be effected by inits because everyone would be using the highest damaging weapons like a Supernova. There wouldn't be much of a difference between fast medium damage weapons (like maussers) and uber slow high dmg weaps (like supernova). In the end each profession would be using uber slow, high damage weapons because their 8-10 second recharge becomes a 2-4 second recharge while the fast weapons are still at the same speed.

[Mercatura]

1-3 pan out perfectly in testing, but are you sure about #4?

My defender would not have capped at 1/1 at title4 for me if it was. Only ~400 'spent' points versus ~500 'base' points.

Would be hard to tell but I didn't notice a speedup after title5.

Granted we are talking about the difference between 1/1.16 (if 4 is true) and 1/1 (if 4 is not) but I did do a ton of missions. Like someone mentioned though, it could go either way; lag can eat a lot. But I still didn't see a increase in damage over a long time (1 min +) which might be noticable.

Hmm, I don't think 4 can really be proven or disproven with current ability caps right now. (~120pts difference at best) You have to look at the actual server-side code. 1-3 are easy to test though, since its real easy buff/debuff a lot.

BTW, the current setup is a lot better for some weapons. Ithaca for example West Wind Katana (1/3) if it ever drops later, lol high level mas can scope to hell and back with that. No problems for a title5/6 ma to get 120 init (for fists) using a 15% scope Even if #4 is true, a title6 has ~600 spent points. Scoped nova flows favor as well, only need 300 shown.

[Mercatura]

A supernova would still suck with 1200 init, even if all 1200 points count for recharge. (12/2.5 would be 10/1...same as it would be now btw)

1200 is about as high as you can get buffed, and even if you got -4 recharge (you don't) it still doesn't make all those 7/7 weapons worth using for anything but specials.

5/3 would still be too damn slow. Hell even 5/1 is too slow, they barely hit twice as hard as a nova flow.

Get 6600 init and the supernova is uber

[_______________Gabro]

Your right

But still I think it would still take out many weapons as "good choices". I like recharge the way it is, again it gives balance to different types of weapons. Many weaspons ingame would become more useless then they are now soon as medium to medium/slow weapons become fast and fast/medium weaps. Weapons that were already fast won't get any faster.

Im afraid of the game getting even more cookie cut characters.

[locomdenom]

Weapons that are fast...

Allow you to fight at lower aggdef settings.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
110 in RI should, in theory, produce a 1/3 second decrease in recharge time.... lag could eat that.

Dunno if this is on test or not (as I don't know where you test), but normal human reaction time ranges between 1/30 and 1/5 of a second, so reaction time+lag might have eaten this... I don't think 1/3 is enough to be certain.

Any chance of you resetting your RI, implanting/buffing the hell out of your bases, and re-testing? (Don't be too harsh, dunno if you're willing to use the reset point in this way; I assume on test you could get it back, doubt it on live...)

LF: Have you reported this as a bug?

Cosmik/Cz: could we get an answer on if this is how recharge is supposed to work, or if it's a bug?

As far as the chances for me reseting my RI skill is concerned, I did it in reverse Order. I tested my Inits BEFORE I pumped my Ranged Init skill.

I am reporting it here. I have reported plenty of bugs before but they don't get heard unless an willing and anxious community doesn't start FULLY testing it and gets the kinks out.

[__________JohnMclain]

Before you stone me to death I just wanted to say using a KIWD Hunter XBow my crat DEFINATELY noticed a recharge time benefit from finally equiping a TIM HUD (he used to use a ELLTS).

At 700+ init (180 from scope, probably another 140 from implants, the base isnt maxed) he is firing at ~3/1.

Aka the recharge is as fast as my Fixers old MPS.

Just my .02

John

[_______________Nieth]

ya
inits are very messy, alot of ppl don't understand them
and i count myself among those ppl
in many cases when i used a scope etc. i noticed that it REALLY messed up my inits
like with a Sword of Sir Galahad i used a pretty minor scope
and considering it's a 1.5/1.5 wep i figured that 500 inits would be more than enuff
i was actually hitting lower than 1/1 with it, even at full aggression
this may just mean i am stupid, i don't know, but seems to me inits are really messed up

[Mercatura]

Lucid, the thing about testing #4 is <1/3 a second is a little too close to the margin of error for an internet game.

Especially one that is out of sync all the time, and has a funny server-side timer

For everyone else: #1-3 are so obvious and easy to prove though. Doc debuffs and scopes would go well over 1 second recharge effect, triple-implants 1/2 sec. Its clear they don't do anything to recharge.

John, it only takes 300 base init (or 400 if you think #4 is right) to recharge cap those Xbows.

[_______________Nieth]

most testing in general is impossible as far as inits are concerned, because all teh visual feedback could easily be totally bogus

[Mercatura]

Yes and no Neith...

The most clearcut example: Ithacas don't slow down at all if you can keep your buffed init >=0

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Mercatura
Yes and no Neith...

The most clearcut example: Ithacas don't slow down at all if you can keep your buffed init >=0

Also note that the # of times you shoot is irrelevant to the testing I did. I observed the Client Side Attack Bar (it is very out of sync with the server one). I basically stared at it over and over timing it going up and down. While the clinet side attack bars may not be accurate as far as attacking is concerned, they ARE accurate as far as speed is concerned.

Sure, I may not be physically able visually to distinguish 1/3 of a second, I am willing to admit that. But #1-3 are reason enough to get an official answer on this.

[_______MartinDeShade]

Originally posted by Mercatura
1-3 pan out perfectly in testing, but are you sure about #4?

My defender would not have capped at 1/1 at title4 for me if it was. Only ~400 'spent' points versus ~500 'base' points.

Would be hard to tell but I didn't notice a speedup after title5.

Granted we are talking about the difference between 1/1.16 (if 4 is true) and 1/1 (if 4 is not) but I did do a ton of missions. Like someone mentioned though, it could go either way; lag can eat a lot. But I still didn't see a increase in damage over a long time (1 min +) which might be noticable.

Hmm, I don't think 4 can really be proven or disproven with current ability caps right now. (~120pts difference at best) You have to look at the actual server-side code. 1-3 are easy to test though, since its real easy buff/debuff a lot.

BTW, the current setup is a lot better for some weapons. Ithaca for example West Wind Katana (1/3) if it ever drops later, lol high level mas can scope to hell and back with that. No problems for a title5/6 ma to get 120 init (for fists) using a 15% scope Even if #4 is true, a title6 has ~600 spent points. Scoped nova flows favor as well, only need 300 shown.

Don't forget that full agg, automatically removes 0.5sec of attack and 0.5sec of recharge. So, for a 2.5sec recharge you would only need to raise init 300.

Martin