IRRK: Omni, Clan, Clan, Omni, where is the frelling difference?!

[Berael]

Nope, the entire planet

Wrong. No amount of flowery language will make it right. The only war going on, on the planet between human breeds is the one in the terraformed zone (( watch FC prove me wrong )). There are no bodies because nanobots eat them, and nobody really dies unless people take huge pains to make it so. The war right now is of no consiquence, and the circumstances, as well as means, mimic those of popular virtual worlds or holo worlds: this is a Red vs Blue scenario.

You are correct to the degree that there is a war, and people are fighting it, but all that fighting is going on here in one small section of the entire planet.

No military value that you see, perhaps. The officers in Dreadloch appear to differ in opinion.

errr....

(( WAIT! time out for a moment.

They arn't called 'dreadloch camps' because they are made up of dreadloch personel, but because they drop Dreadloch gear. This was pointed out in the patch notes that introduced them (that they were hording Dreadloch weapons) and these threads:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=486769

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=486775

))

[Towerblock]

Wrong. No amount of flowery language will make it right. The only war going on, on the planet between human breeds is the one in the terraformed zone. There are no bodies because nanobots eat them, and nobody really dies unless people take huge pains to make it so.

Nitpick the details all you like, the only parts im concerned with are the parts that matter. And besides, just because only the 'terrorformed' areas are in a state of contention, doesn't mean one isn't going on. So what if the nanobots eat the corpses and people are sent to reclaim. Because thats only more proof of how and why, this continues to exist! Colouring and shading the lines however it may suit your argument does not stop it from being true. It either is going on, or it isn't. But hey, don't take my word for it, just ask around in Borealis about how they feel about the 'incursion' of military troops in their streets. Continuing to ignore the facts, and fading the details, isn't helping you.

The war right now is of no consiquence, and the circumstances, as well as means, mimic those of popular virtual worlds or holo worlds: this is a Red vs Blue scenario.

You are correct to the degree that there is a war, and people are fighting it, but all that fighting is going on here in one small section of the entire planet.

So which is it now? Is it on or not?

You are correct to the degree that there is a war, and people are fighting it, but all that fighting is going on here in one small section of the entire planet.

Oh... so there IS a war going on. Thank you for finally taking all this time to understand that. Sheesh, for a moment, I thought all the factions were going nuts just for their own sakes.

So, now where do you stand? Even if I am wrong, and these so called camps do have allegiances, it changes nothing. These camps threaten, and its proof of escalation. So which is it now? NO consequence? I mean are you absolutely sure? Because every day I wake up to some battle scenario or another, between different alignments.. but hey... I guess a war really isnt going on, and I am never involved!

So by proxy - of course, I am not a terrorist after all! If there is no war, then there can be no war crimes! There can be no arrest warrants for these things, because they obviously arent going on!

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I can clearly see you have your eyeball right on the money. Pardon me for a moment, because I suddenly feel the need to roll mine.

[Berael]

Nitpick the details all you like,

The whole entire arguement you started -was- over details. I haven't once suggested that there was no war, or that people haven't been fighting it. The only reason that anybody might think that I don't know whats going on has been you implying that I don't.

I guess a war really isnt going on, and I am never involved!

I'd hate to think that you just argued so hard that there -was- a war going on and now you think that there isn't one.

A war of no consiquence is different than there being no war at all, I was pretty sure that you could understand that.

If my company and I get twenty contracts a day, ten will be from Omni, ten will be from Clan. We go out and repair their data satelites, fix their radar array, kill the OT shift manager, kill the Clan battle overseerer... the next day all of that is undone. The manager is back at his job, the overseerer is back in the trenches, like nothing ever happened. Soldiers die on the front lines, they just pick themselves up from reclaim and run back out to the front lines. While this might have overtones of trying to make holes for decisive action, that action doesn't happen.

The new 'camps', while might be an example of escalation of the war if you only read the news, but if you actualy travel around the world you would see that those same camps, have always been in place with sided personel. In the case of Drumdar and Safe Haven, both of those sites have been well within what could be considered Clan territory.

Lets go to Borealis for a moment, since it never seems to fail that somebody mentions it like it is some magic wand. When the Unicorns came in they literaly appeared in an instant and the ICC guards vanished into thin air. Many of us were pretty upset about that so we started killing those unicorns. Unfortuantely for us, we kill them and they just pop up again a couple minutes latter like nothing ever happened. Shortly there after, OT started letting Clans back in the city and the world proceeded on just like nothing ever happened.

I don't doubt that you are fighting in the trenches and waking up to the sounds of gun fire, but have failed to demonstrate how that disproves that you fighting in the trench actualy changes anything. If Omni-Tek takes ground some where, Clan takes just as much some where else. If OT fortifies their position, Clan sends in just as many troops to fortify their own. I suspect that if OT walked away from fighting in some place, Clan would also.

[Towerblock]

The whole entire arguement you started -was- over details. I haven't once suggested that there was no war, or that people haven't been fighting it. The only reason that anybody might think that I don't know whats going on has been you implying that I don't.

In your first few points, you say that this battle that I fight is of no consequence. Right there is the point where you negate the sacrifices and the strides that have been made by myself and others to bring a vision of progress. When you cut that
down, you're basically hosing down all their work and effort. And unlike most people, there is a significant difference that each and every encounter makes, not because one person can just slay another in the street, but how it impacts all that whom are involved. Permenant death is a reality. You've again negated the sacrifices of those whom have indeed been claimed. You may or may not have emotional attachments to these people, but there is no greater hero than one that dies for what he/she believes in, that is for the greater good of something beyond themselves. Omni-tek in the past, has... and more than likely continue to use permenant killing devices, and members of clan factions will continue to steal it from them. Every action, creates an equal and opposing reaction. These reactions are conflict, and a staple drama of everyone's lives.

The new 'camps', while might be an example of escalation of the war if you only read the news, but if you actualy travel around the world you would see that those same camps, have always been in place with sided personel. In the case of Drumdar and Safe Haven, both of those sites have been well within what could be considered Clan territory.

I have travelled and been to every single one of them. There are others in Omni-tek hands as well. Again, the cycle continues. Conflict creates hardship.

Lets go to Borealis for a moment, since it never seems to fail that somebody mentions it like it is some magic wand. When the Unicorns came in they literaly appeared in an instant and the ICC guards vanished into thin air. Many of us were pretty upset about that so we started killing those unicorns. Unfortuantely for us, we kill them and they just pop up again a couple minutes latter like nothing ever happened. Shortly there after, OT started letting Clans back in the city and the world proceeded on just like nothing ever happened.

It continues to be mentioned because that occupation isn't solved. It will continue be a black eye on the Borealis record, until that time ends. And to be ridiculously blunt about it, if the citizens of Borealis kept on, eventually something had to give. The one incident is waved like a flag by neutrals just like anyone else. But hey, if youre comfortable with gunfire in the streets, and children having to dodge said gunfire in said streets, then who am I to question.

I don't doubt that you are fighting in the trenches and waking up to the sounds of gun fire, but have failed to demonstrate how that disproves that you fighting in the trench actualy changes anything. If Omni-Tek takes ground some where, Clan takes just as much some where else. If OT fortifies their position, Clan sends in just as many troops to fortify their own. I suspect that if OT walked away from fighting in some place, Clan would also.

Absolutely. However as tragic as this all sounds, chances are it wont happen. The long and the short of this entire argument that I was attempting to make, is that how clan proper has managed to keep their footing, is through this sacrifice that we make. I may wake up after one battle and be ready to charge back in, but sacrifices are still made. There are times when women look at their husbands and say, "Dont go..." (and vice versa) I have a child on the way. What do I tell him or her when she has finally has the words to ask me what this is all about? I wont be there some of the of the times when my family will need me. This happens on both sides. You say the sacrifice is nil, but I disagree. I dont enjoy watching people suffer for a war of 'no consequence'. Because right now the best I can ever hoping for, is the complete and total acknowledgment that Clan in general, should have the basic freedoms of life, decision, freedom, and prosperity. I can't stop unless someone else stops pointing a gun at my unborn child.

Is that consequence enough for ya?

Back onto topic, of course... contention, and why align? Simply stated, its all point of view and personal experience. I chose one, just as easily as one chooses another.

[DrakeIV]

Typical dribble you can expect from some fence sitter who is too scared to go out and get the truth. I agree with bubba on this one and my fellow clanner who pionted out that clansmen/women saved the backwater fishing village that is probably now buried under some scheme or other.

[Anamelle]

I've been observing this discussion for a while now and I must say it really saddens me.

We are told Drumdar was taken for our own good. That the town was being protected, that the soldiers moved there for important military reasons.

Others tell us we should arm ourselves and blindly fight everyone around us.

Actually, I am reminded of another discussion several months ago. When Borealis was taken. In fact, the reasons the OT gave for taking the city were very similar to those given by the Clans now.

Forget all the tags: Clan, Omni Tek, Neutral for a moment. What do you see? A group of innocent civilians being oppressed by a militaristic group for some vague reasons.

What am I going to do? I'm going to go back to my town and prepare shelter and supplies for yet another group of refugees. This is what matters the most now.

[Towerblock]

Typical dribble you can expect from some fence sitter who is too scared to go out and get the truth.

I am not debating this outta malice towards Berael, or Neutrals in general. Only the open and flagrant use of misacknowledgment really does a disservice to those who put respect and life on the line to champion a cause. I can't ever expect someone with a truly neutral standpoint to understand what that means.

But I will say honestly, there is some progress there. If anyone has issues with something or someone that is oppressive, then you should band up and take it back. If you don't defend your view then there is no point in even having one, much less advocating it in the first place.

But its true, the strong do replace the weak. These camps are strong now. In fact, the Drumdar camp looks 150% better than it did a few months ago. Is this such a bad thing? I honestly cannot say I am for or against the overall existance of these military camps, but they are here. I have even raided these camps for much needed supplies. Regardless of how or why they are here, the balance is still maintained.

Actually, I am reminded of another discussion several months ago. When Borealis was taken. In fact, the reasons the OT gave for taking the city were very similar to those given by the Clans now.

As a representative of the CoT, I can honestly tell you without a shred of doubt that the CoT has no interest in taking Borealis, for a good reason or no. Simon Silverstone may have some interest in it, but that is him, and not the whole. In fact, I would aggressively protest any move made in such a manner.

Forget all the tags: Clan, Omni Tek, Neutral for a moment. What do you see? A group of innocent civilians being oppressed by a militaristic group for some vague reasons.

I dont see oppression there at all. Not even one citizen has stepped forward to say otherwise. With the Borealis situation, there was an angry public revolt that day. While certainly similar situations, thats where the similarity ends.

[DrakeIV]

Eh Perhaps I was a bit too harsh but I don't deserve to lumped in with some of these psychos and rogue clans. The reporter needs to be more careful about what information they choose to disseminate, remember most of us will call you on it.

[Vickie]

As a representative of the CoT, I can honestly tell you without a shred of doubt that the CoT has no interest in taking Borealis, for a good reason or no. Simon Silverstone may have some interest in it, but that is him, and not the whole. In fact, I would aggressively protest any move made in such a manner.

Well, as a neutral representative for CoT in Atlantean world, first off, I would like to inform you that Supreme Commander Silverstone has no interest at all in Borealis. Not when it was neutral, not as it is now, occupied. This words he gave me upon request at last Council of Truth meeting in the Atlantean world.
However, you are correct about the part that CoT has no intention of taking Borealis into Clan hands, what so ever.

Mona "Sovieta" Creehan
Neutral rep. for CoT (RK1).
1st rep. of the Forsaken.
...from the ashes of GVRK.

[Towerblock]

Eh Perhaps I was a bit too harsh but I don't deserve to lumped in with some of these psychos and rogue clans.

No one does, really. I have been fighting a battle against lazy people who like to generalize and stereotype for as long as I can remember. I also wanted to segway the conversation a bit to show that I am not trying to flame Berael either. More of a casual disagreement than anything.

[Towerblock]

I would like to inform you that Supreme Commander Silverstone has no interest at all in Borealis. Not when it was neutral, not as it is now, occupied. This words he gave me upon request at last Council of Truth meeting in the Atlantean world.
However, you are correct about the part that CoT has no intention of taking Borealis into Clan hands, what so ever.

I said 'may' have interest. So far, he's said nothing either way to me. More or less a wagered guess.

Like you, we also have neutral emmissaries (I'm currently hoping to keep Anamelle on board) and I'd personally like to see a clan rep be dispatched to the neutral arena as well. Good to know that some of us are on the same page.

[Boltgun]

I said 'may' have interest. So far, he's said nothing either way to me. More or less a wagered guess.

Like you, we also have neutral emmissaries (I'm currently hoping to keep Anamelle on board) and I'd personally like to see a clan rep be dispatched to the neutral arena as well. Good to know that some of us are on the same page.

The words I have gotten so far is he have no insterest in getting involved with Borealis. But if he did, he'd keep it for himself.

And like it or not, both you and Omni Tek are moving in neutral settlements and putting your authority on it without them asking you anything. Not even leaving them a choice. That's action like this that motivate us in getting involved in the war, if only to have the strenght to say no to you.

[Towerblock]

And like it or not, both you and Omni Tek are moving in neutral settlements and putting your authority on it without them asking you anything. Not even leaving them a choice. That's action like this that motivate us in getting involved in the war, if only to have the strenght to say no to you.

Pardon? I don't recall ever going anywhere and staking a claim on any neutral lands.
Wanna try again?

[Boltgun]

Pardon? I don't recall ever going anywhere and staking a claim on any neutral lands.
Wanna try again?

I assumed, you seems to know what's best for neutral settlements.

[DrakeIV]

Funny I also recal Neut attacking both long held Omni and Clan Territories on occassion as well. I doubt anyone is innocent of not trying to grab some turg.

[Towerblock]

I assumed, you seems to know what's best for neutral settlements.

Oh? You assumed? Hrm...

Did I just say I wasn't speaking for them? I said I can empathize with their situation in a way that for me, makes sense. And you can do the same, without fear from anyone. I said many times I wasn't defending them.

So I gotta ask, does 'assuming' that you think, that I know whats best for neutral settlements mean youre really only just pissy because I have an opinion on it? Because if yes, then I am not gunna apologize for having one.

Seems to me, that more people are upset that land changes hand in general, than anything else. If clan lands or omni-tek lands suddenly changed hands, you'd not say a damn thing. If you were the one to probe deep enough, youd learn that according to popular documentation, the planet is technically 'owned' by the ICC, and leased to OT for their use.

Contention. That's what this is about. Conflict over territory happens this way. It's been going on for centuries, not just here, but everywhere else. I am not sorry that I wont shed alligator tears, because I don't see a single shred of proof that there is a situation.

But go ahead, and blame me for your problems. I hear it takes less energy to do that, than actually doing something about it.

[Boltgun]

Well, I don't like your opinion. I'm not even giving it respect. Also my mind is not open to your ideas. I'm also completely closed to your thinking and arguments I see as illogical. And there is no way you can convince me that taking that town is a great thing for all of us. For you it is, but for you.

What's sure is that you and other saying that it's cool to do that give that group support and encourage more actions like this. So don't go washing your hands in this matter.

This conflict of territory involve your side and Omni Tek taking control of neutral lands to have more opration bases near strategic enemy points. And we being the neutrals we're opposed.

[Towerblock]

Well, I don't like your opinion. I'm not even giving it respect. Also my mind is not open to your ideas. I'm also completely closed to your thinking and arguments I see as illogical. And there is no way you can convince me that taking that town is a great thing for all of us. For you it is, but for you.

Well yippee flippin' skippy for you. Life aint fair and most of the times its incredibly illogical. Easy to say you don't have to agree with what I have brought to the table, but there it is, and it is said and done. Its also easy to say that on the same token, as much whining and crying I am hearing from you, Mr. Boltgun, how much do have you helped that situation? Hrm?

I personally don't care to convince you of anything but getting off your whiny *** and do something about it. I don't even care enough to worry about being the bad guy in all this, because then I will have at least motivated someone into action.

What's sure is that you and other saying that it's cool to do that give that group support and encourage more actions like this. So don't go washing your hands in this matter.

Your particular perception is that you wanna see it to the most negative end as possible. That's fine, I can expect that from a complainer. You still will not win my pity.

This conflict of territory involve your side and Omni Tek taking control of neutral lands to have more opration bases near strategic enemy points. And we being the neutrals we're opposed.

Then oppose it with some fervor at least. Till then, wipe your tears and get back in the soup line like the rest of us working class ***holes. You're not the only one who suffers. *spits*

No cry for me; No cry for you. Simple as that.

[Boltgun]

Well yippee flippin' skippy for you. Life aint fair and most of the times its incredibly illogical. Easy to say you don't have to agree with what I have brought to the table, but there it is, and it is said and done. Its also easy to say that on the same token, as much whining and crying I am hearing from you, Mr. Boltgun, how much do have you helped that situation? Hrm?

I personally don't care to convince you of anything but getting off your whiny *** and do something about it. I don't even care enough to worry about being the bad guy in all this, because then I will have at least motivated someone into action.

Your particular perception is that you wanna see it to the most negative end as possible. That's fine, I can expect that from a complainer. You still will not win my pity.

Then oppose it with some fervor at least. Till then, wipe your tears and get back in the soup line like the rest of us working class ***holes. You're not the only one who suffers. *spits*

No cry for me; No cry for you. Simple as that.

Oh, insults ! Feeling better now ? You convinced yourself of your imaginary superiority ?

No wait, I don't wanna know. Forget it.

[Towerblock]

Yup. Instults. I call em like I see em. You wanna cry about that too?