Borealis Manifesto

[Nyadach]

Ok yes I know, we don’t want one…but couldn’t resist the chance to rant…urm I mean come up with something which covers everything to do with us since there was a few challenges kicking around about how its not possible to come up with a document which covers what the neutral population is at the moment

And yes, before I get a line of complaints this is “mostly” all in jest...and no I am not poking fun of the “Neutral Manifesto” from Newland (well not much anyhow), as that is a serious document with the backing of a council...and this is the rambling rants of a old nanomage whos into blowing things up. I’m just trying to show its possible (or try) to cover the “neutral” population in a document that both Clan and Omni can understand, what and who we are by describing the basic “rights” of what binds all “neutrals” together.


Right of Freedom
This is by far the biggest element in what it is to be “neutral”. Our ability to be free. Free to roam the planet, and free to live our lives how we wish. Not to be persecuted for our beliefs even if they may sometimes bend a few laws in other parts of the planet. Our freedom not to be confined, oppressed or limited by others.

Right of Liberty
Our right to be immune from the laws not chosen by the neutral populace…hard to define per say but in brief, we choose our laws that we live by. We don’t have to follow those imposed on us by Omni or the Clans. To be completely independent and autonomous of Omni and Clan authority over our lives, rights, and beliefs.

Right of Free Speech
Everyone has a right to argue as much as they like (had to since I argue with every bugger else hehe). The ability to speak freely about anything and everything. To not be hindered from being allowed to speak their minds about anything which can effect their rights, themselves, or their family.

Right to Carry Arms
Rubi-ka is a dangerous planet. You never know when someone, or something is going to try snacking on you. So the ability for “neutral” citizens to carry a weapon, is both paramount to their existence, and continued existence to live on Rubi-ka…as in accordance to the Right to Defend and Right of Freedom.

Right to Defend
Their own lives, their family, their freedom, their liberty, and any property they may own. Rubi-ka has many hostile people, some maybe other “neutrals”, some might be from one of the “factions”, and some may even be from off world. It doesn’t matter who they are, but every neutral should have the right to be able to defend themselves. Be that with a weapon or through the courts fairly.

[Dabblez]

Ah Nayadach, you make it sound so simple, but it is not simple at all.

First and foremost, Rubi-Ka falls under ICC law. It follows that any of the rights you claim for the Neutrals are subject to ICC law. The planet was terraformed by an ICC corporation, its citizens are all directly or indirectly descendents of ICC colonists. You cannot simply opt-out of ICC’s jurisdiction any more than, hypothetically, your organisation the Independent Rubi-Kans, could take possession of Hope and claim to be a brand new faction, outside of Neutral jurisdiction.

In practice I don’t expect this to be a problem, the ICC seems more than happy to grant a great deal of autonomy to local communities, but my point is that whether you choose not to recognise ICC law hardly matters. What matter is that the ICC recognises you.

Secondly, you cannot claim rights for the Neutrals that violate the rights of Clan and Omni to govern themselves. The habitable portion of Rubi-Ka is roughly partitioned between Omni, Clan and Neutrals territories. The details are hazy since the Tir Accord was rescinded and desputed in many instances, but the principles are well established.

While it has been the custom for generations for Omni and Clan towns to allows Neutrals free passage, I am not sure you can claim it a right. By claiming this as a Neutral right, you infringe on the rights of Omni and Clan towns to draw up their own immigration policies. But of course Neutrals should be entitled to deciding their own immigration policies.

Likewise, the right to bear arms is also both customary and necessary on Rubi-Ka. But I do disagree that should Neutrals have the right to bear weapons in Omni or Clan towns. It’s a privilege extended to you, not a right. But you may also want to ask yourself, in the context of a Borealis manifesto is should you really allow Omni and Clan to bear arms in Neutral towns?

Savoy

[Nyadach]

Actually Savoy, you make a point that I was thinking myself...the "what happens when" situation. Basically its as part of the "deciding" factor when it comes to matters concerning law etc. In brief its as follows:

In a matter of Neutral v Omni...the deciding factor (ie judge) will have to be a mutually picked Clan representative.

In a matter of Neutral v Clan...the deciding factor (ie judge) will have to be a mutually picked Omni representative.

In a matter of Neutral v Neutral...the deciding factor (ie judge) will have to be a mutually picked ICC, Omni or Clan representative.

In a matter of Neutral v ICC...the deciding factor (ie judge) will have to be a mutually picked Clan representative (since Omni has a major stake in the ICC).

As for Omni and Clan to bear arms in neutral towns...its really more in relation to our right to defend ourselves. As without arms, we are unable to do so. Its not actually such that its about limiting Omni or Clan to wield a weapon in a neutral town.

Either way...it got a response

[Trgeorge]

Nyadach, in whose name are you making this proclamation?

[Nyadach]

Nyadach, in whose name are you making this proclamation?

As mentioned at the start:

Ok yes I know, we don’t want one…but couldn’t resist the chance to rant…urm I mean come up with something which covers everything to do with us since there was a few challenges kicking around about how its not possible to come up with a document which covers what the neutral population is at the moment

Basically it was a challenge...that its not possible to make a document which covers what current makes up the so called current state of "neutrality". This is just my ranting varient of it No support. Nothing else. Just one nutters idea to see if its possible to sum up the current state of things or not depending on what people think.

[chimx]

My goodness... three manifestos in such a short time?

Though... This is one that is much more reasonable.

[Trgeorge]

Basically it was a challenge...that its not possible to make a document which covers what current makes up the so called current state of "neutrality". This is just my ranting varient of it No support. Nothing else. Just one nutters idea to see if its possible to sum up the current state of things or not depending on what people think.

Strike one then. As Savoy said, you're bound with higher authority still. And your sum of things is just words if you can't enforce them.

[Berael]

Strike one then. As Savoy said, you're bound with higher authority still. And your sum of things is just words if you can't enforce them.

Generaly speaking, a manifesto doesn't need to be enforced. Its a statement of ideals, not a statement of law.

I think its funny though.

In a matter of Neutral v Omni...the deciding factor (ie judge) will have to be a mutually picked Clan representative.

...etc

The Wolves will not be judged by somebody who is not their peer. The Clans and OT have different circumstances and aims than us, and I would suspect the majority of neutrals. I do not beleive they could make an impartial judgement.

Right of Freedom
This is by far the biggest element in what it is to be “neutral”. Our ability to be free. Free to roam the planet, and free to live our lives how we wish. Not to be persecuted for our beliefs even if they may sometimes bend a few laws in other parts of the planet. Our freedom not to be confined, oppressed or limited by others.

I will not stand by while somebody decided to live their life in a way that interferes with my life.

[Nyadach]

You know...this is the good thing about this being a rant and not an official document...it can be changed...LOTS

Chopped up the Right of Freedom a bit, basically removing the persecution bit as lets face it, we get persecuted as it is, so fine. It also opens up more for the Right to Defend which can then actually allow someone who say...ohh didn't like mewing to assault those who mew'ed alot, and vice versa It still says we wish not to be oppressed, or limited by others, but it also now leaves open that you may get oppressed from time to time

On the Right of Liberty...tweaked the law making and judging to be basically neutral peers. Hopefully better way of keeping things in order, due to keeping everything "in the family" so to speak. Any Omni or Clan complaint...pfft!

Since it doesn't concern anyone other than the neutrals, how about this tweak:

Right of Freedom
Our ability to be free. Free to roam the planet, and free to live our lives how we wish. Our freedom not to be confined, oppressed or limited by others.

Right of Liberty
Our right to be immune from the laws not chosen by the neutral populace…the laws that we live by are choosen not by Omni, or Clan, or ICC (although technically they are a neutral organisation). We don’t have to follow those imposed on us others inside neutral territory. In matters of conflict to be decided over by fellow neutral peers (possibly including the ICC). To be completely independent and autonomous of Omni and Clan authority over our lives, rights, and beliefs.

[Trgeorge]

Right of Freedom
Our ability to be free. Free to roam the planet, and free to live our lives how we wish. Our freedom not to be confined, oppressed or limited by others.

So if you want to abduct and kill children you're free to do it? Once you grant unlimited freedom, you can throw all other rights out of window.

Right of Liberty
Our right to be immune from the laws not chosen by the neutral populace…the laws that we live by are choosen not by Omni, or Clan, or ICC (although technically they are a neutral organisation). We don’t have to follow those imposed on us others inside neutral territory. In matters of conflict to be decided over by fellow neutral peers (possibly including the ICC). To be completely independent and autonomous of Omni and Clan authority over our lives, rights, and beliefs.

ICC laws always apply to you (as do for the rest of population). And what gives you right to grant immunity to other neutrals. Or what prevents othe neutrals to set up laws by which you must abide Omni or Clan laws? As for authority...can you defend those rights of yours? Omni-Pol walks freely in Borealis, snatching up anyone who seems su****ius. Futhermore, since most neutrals either work for Omni-Tek or trade with Clans, they aren't really independant. But let's speculate for a moment neutrals can indeed survive on their own. Credits talk. If some powerful group wanted to put pressure on you guys, all they would have to do is to buy out every neutral store and manufacturer.

Always keep two things in mind....
1) Omni-Tek protects. They protect themself. Omni-Tek serves. They serve themself. Neutrals exist because you don't pose any clear and present danger to them. And because they need someone for a more shifty jobs.
2) Clans don't trust Omni-Tek. We don't trust anyone working for them either. There are special names for those that accept highest offer. But until neutrals present clear and present danger, we need someone around who actually work inside Omni-Tek...shifty buisness too .

[Nyadach]

So if you want to abduct and kill children you're free to do it? Once you grant unlimited freedom, you can throw all other rights out of window.

No, as once we've got our own laws I don't see kidnapping as something which will occur as its against our right of freedom. As well as generally being something we just wouldn't do. We ain't Pol you know!

ICC laws always apply to you (as do for the rest of population). And what gives you right to grant immunity to other neutrals. Or what prevents othe neutrals to set up laws by which you must abide Omni or Clan laws? As for authority...can you defend those rights of yours? Omni-Pol walks freely in Borealis, snatching up anyone who seems su****ius. Futhermore, since most neutrals either work for Omni-Tek or trade with Clans, they aren't really independant. But let's speculate for a moment neutrals can indeed survive on their own. Credits talk. If some powerful group wanted to put pressure on you guys, all they would have to do is to buy out every neutral store and manufacturer.

The ICC may make the law for the planet, and also provide security personal in some of our towns. But as our community grows is it not right we expand our own ability to support ourselves. To bring our own security forces and militias to defend our towns. Is it not right we can choose our own leaders, our code of laws. Fine the ICC may override our laws in the grand scheme of things if somethings taken that far, but once they leave we will still need laws. Set by the neutral population, for the neutral population.

As for credits talking...I think our economy is growing rapidly enough along with our population to support ourselves. Maybe not with a huge outlay in military expenses like yourselves, or Omni. But we can provide what we need to survive on.

Always keep two things in mind....
1) Omni-Tek protects. They protect themself. Omni-Tek serves. They serve themself. Neutrals exist because you don't pose any clear and present danger to them. And because they need someone for a more shifty jobs.
2) Clans don't trust Omni-Tek. We don't trust anyone working for them either. There are special names for those that accept highest offer. But until neutrals present clear and present danger, we need someone around who actually work inside Omni-Tek...shifty buisness too .

Irrelevant.

[Berael]

This is not a law document,

Weird concept I know mew, but its the truth. A manifest is not a declaration of law, its a declaration of ideals, intentions, and principles. This means that it obviously can't be enforced because you can't enforce beleif or ideals, only actions. Regardless, the power of a manifesto is to make law irrelevant. The reason for this is as said in the old saying, "nobody ever stopped doing anything just because a law was made against it." On the other hand people do stop doings things because they believe they are wrong, or start doing them because they believe they are right.

Nyadach, Yarko, and ... that other guy... Bella-thingumy, can declare any set of principles they want, doesn't mean people will acknowledge or follow them.

[Nyadach]

Very true Berael. This was as I keep stating just an "idea" to see if it is possible to come up with something which can describe what the neutral community is to those who aren't. I have to admit I've got side tracked myself in the stuff here from the Clanners and Omni ranting about it. But back on track, is it possible to describe the current "neutral" community? I think we can, with enough tweaking. I know you don't like bits of this, so please say and we'll see if we can come up with something with does fit us all. Be it an IR member, a NLF, a member of the WB, EO, CG...anyone. This is just to see if its actually possible. So fire away and lets see what as a collective group, can we describe ourselves in ideals, intentions and principles?

[Berael]

I've talked about this alot in the Neutral Manifesto Topic mew -.-

A couple things i've observed though that might make a difference. There seems to be at least two groups of neutrals in the neutral community.

The first are the ones that are a part of the Legacy neutral guilds or are affiliated with them. These groups would seem to have a certain common understanding of how neutrals should act towards each other and treat each other with a certain type of mutual respect. There is an unspoken set of rules that is followed by everybody who is socialized into this group.

The second group started arriving with the release of immigration fees by the ICC. The froobs moved in and started making their own organizations. There is alot more randomness to these organizations and they haven't established relations with as much of the neutral community yet. In fact some deliberately try and stay away from the established neutral community, shown as a couple months ago that I had a comment from somebody that all the old people don't understand the froobs.

Its uncertain where the NLF falls for me, but they would seem to be in the first group. Even dispite their pomp and boasting they don't generaly attack neutrals and they are not generaly pointedly disruptive of the neutral community.

It should also be noted that traditionaly the people who were neutrals were people who walked away from their own sides and didn't want to participate in the war. As the idea of neutrality and 'non-particpation' is still in hot contension about whether it is a literal or more interperative term, it might be best that we work on neutrality as well. I know alot of people who consider themselves as balancers for the conflict and alot of people who are just trying to avoid the conflict. I personaly consider myself to be outside of the conflict, and that many of the issues that are a part of the conflict to now be irrelivant, so I don't mind working with the sides on occasion. Now its just degenerated into a playground conflict and turf war where its a matter of finger pointing and land grabbing.

Oh right mew, you might want to try and pull in more people because I know tons of people don't read these threads.

[Nyadach]

Very true Berael. Although I thought I had attempted to sum up the essence of the community with the neutral community is actually a group of "unaffiliated" organisations and people, who also include the original, true neutral citizens. I understand many people see that as being too vague. But with the fact that so many of the newer "neutral" citizens actively taking part in the war, and as such no longer being truely able to use the term neutral....unaffiliated seems to cover the mixed diversity of our people in its current form, rather than the term neutral....which sadly it seems the number of "neutral" neutrals is rather less these days.

[Berael]

You always make me eye roll when you talk about the lack of true neutrality, Nyadach. The reason is that you have to define what level of activity defines who is 'truly neutral' than who is the more fake 'unaffiliated'. It would seem to me, that in order to be truly neutral you would have to come very well close to sitting around and staring at your own navel all day because anything that is an energy exchange can be see as beneficial for one side or the other.

Neutrals are like cats in that you can sit down a cat can tell it what it should and should not do, and it will listen more or less attentively to you; but in the end it will always go and do what it wanted to do regardless of what you said to it.

Another way to take it would be to say that there is and ideological defintion of neutrality and a objective defintion. The ideological one would be the one I generaly take where no matter what I do, because my intentions are not to fight the war, but to engage certain goals that are particular to myself and the Wolves that we cannot be counted as fighting for a side even if we fight along side them. Their purpose for being on the battle feild and ours are different. Even though the end points are the same, the meaning is different. The objective version would not take this mental model into account and only deal with actions. This appears to be what alot of people are using. The essence of it is that if you are involved with a certain side to X degree than you are not really neutral, no matter what it is you are doing and why you are doing it. X degree seems to generaly be defined as less than any given person's level of involvement

[Nyadach]

You always make me eye roll when you talk about the lack of true neutrality, Nyadach. The reason is that you have to define what level of activity defines who is 'truly neutral' than who is the more fake 'unaffiliated'. It would seem to me, that in order to be truly neutral you would have to come very well close to sitting around and staring at your own navel all day because anything that is an energy exchange can be see as beneficial for one side or the other.

Define...ok, unprovoked aggression against either Omni or Clan. By instigating a fight you become either Clan or Omni. You loose your neutrality. In this sense Yarkos Neutral Manifesto was very correct. It is a exact course of what is "neutral". Its a shame that many people aren't.

Look at the NLF for example. They are classed as "neutral" but see themselves as there own faction really. They can't be defined as "neutral" due to there actions against all the miners who are Clan and Omni, even sometimes Neutral. So many organisations, and individuals in our community don't or don't wish to be seen as neutral, and are infact there own unique faction. This does make it difficult to govern, and also for those outside like the Clans and Omni to deal with us as they really have to deal with each of us individually...which is for many to complex a chore to undertake. So they deal with us as the "neutral" community. But when that neutral community is no longer neutral? or see's itself as neutral, than what does it become? Simply, a group of unaffiliated organisations grouped together. With the neutral community being part of that. Some see it as being just a naming a grouping change, which it is. But in reality it does describe more accuratly who and what we are. And once thats defined, we can then move on and try and set out what makes up a defination which covers all the different organisations which make up who and what we are.

No ones a "fake" neutral. Its just that neutral is an incorrect way of describing our entire community. So far not seen a better word to describe us than unaffiliated. But please feel free to throw in a new one.

Neutrals are like cats in that you can sit down a cat can tell it what it should and should not do, and it will listen more or less attentively to you; but in the end it will always go and do what it wanted to do regardless of what you said to it.

Very true. But that brings us back to the "shades of grey" argument. And to try and form a uniting element which covers all the "shades". Which is basically what this document (although with no official backing from any kind of government, and pretty much no backing of most citizens) was intended to do. What common elements make up all the neutal/unaffiliated people and organisations? what are the common beliefs and desires? If we find them. We can form something which can be used then to describe us all...or so's the plan.

[Berael]

ok, unprovoked aggression against either Omni or Clan. By instigating a fight you become either Clan or Omni. You loose your neutrality.

With all due respect for you Nyadach, I don't buy that definition either.

The world is -not- bounded by just the conflict between Omni-Tek and the Clans.

It is not a scale that swings back and forth between two extremities.

There are not just two choices, but as many choices as there are people on this world.

If I attack at OT employee for what ever reason that does not imply that I support the Clans, it simply means that I attacked them for my own reasons.
If I make armor for a Clansman it doesn't mean I will get up and fight the 'Oppressive Omni Scum'
If I make a weapon for a OT personel it doesn't mean that I will jump on board their research programs to figure out how to put down the rebels.

I think it would be better to say that neutrality is defined by the lack of support for OT or the Clans. Although i'm not completely happy with that definition either, mostly because support is also and ambigous term.

So far not seen a better word to describe us than unaffiliated. But please feel free to throw in a new one.

Ah right. If you want a better word than 'unaffiliated' use independent. Unaffiliated to me means that either the people are just waiting to join a side, or that they support a cause without being part of it. Independent people maintain their own reasons for doing something, rather than depend on the defintion of their identity by another power (such as OT or the Clans).

[Kari]

Ah right. If you want a better word than 'unaffiliated' use independent. Unaffiliated to me means that either the people are just waiting to join a side, or that they support a cause without being part of it. Independent people maintain their own reasons for doing something, rather than depend on the defintion of their identity by another power (such as OT or the Clans).

Which leads to the amusing conundrum of "how do you govern independents?", which is also rather amusingly twisting Nya into knots. Rather like herding feline quadrupeds.

[Nyadach]

It is not a scale that swings back and forth between two extremities. There are not just two choices, but as many choices as there are people on this world.

Yep, the good old "shades of grey"....but to be neutral. You are just that. Neutral.

Ah right. If you want a better word than 'unaffiliated' use independent.

You know, that is actually better....why the heck has it taken this long before its been used?...*pauses as he reads his own IR name tag* ok thats another matter, which to be honest I think I've utterly ignored but yes, it does cover all this nicely hehe