Expansion pack...oh fun! unless...

[______________Nelida]

you're working for peace and restrictions on notum mining.

Yes, some of us actually RP trying to bring peace and self-government to Rubika. And a fewer of us want to restrict the excessive notum mining.

This expansion pack supplies ALL the reason to go after each other with guns blazing and strip even MORE notum from the planet. What it does NOT do is give us ANY reason to find peace and find an alternative economy to notum.

Funcom, while I applaud your attempt to supply content I'd REALLY like to see a balance to that content. If you give us a reason to land-grab and mine notum could you POSSIBLY give us a reason for an alternative that has its own set of benefits? I mean all you've done is ensure that almost the entire player base will be doing the exact same thing...no benefits to the alternative; peace and a balanced economy. Thanks for the diversity...not.

[LTK]

((OOC, Obviously))

Oh my lord.

So I'm reading it over about the expansion pack and the booster pack, thinking "Man, this is gonna ROCK. No way will anyone be able to dig up a whiney complaint about THIS one..."

Boy was I wrong.

Concept of peace on Rubi-Ka: Sit around and do absolutely nothing.

The option of utilizing this concept: Available (since release date)

The process through which you may further your character's quest for peace: Be peaceful.

The availability of this process: Infinite (since release date)

The process through which to inform others about your quest for peace: Tell others about your quest for peace.

The availability of this process: Infinite (since release date)

Diversity? Make some sense. Diversity is something AO has always had, since day one. We just needed a way to make the conflict more "real" to the players. With these upcoming expansions and boosters, we can finally do exactly that.

Keep in Mind: Tarryk IC is a pacifist, a supporter of peace and balance, and a lover of diversity. And I STILL think that your complaint is silly.

I mean, what on earth do you want them to do? Make a tree-hugging emote? Create hand-held anti-notum rally signs for you to carry around? Your ability to fight for peace and balance is no lessened than it was at launch date, and cannot possibly be any greater considering the constraints of a MID-WAR GAME.

[Myers]

Ummm, there is now a reason to fight. So now since there will be fighting, there will be a reason to want peace. Becasue war and fighting is terrible and makes life miserable.

[Metalynx]

(clears throat)

Umm ANARCHY Online??

Something about that names leads me to belive the designers wernt heading twards a Happy go Lucky "My Little Pony" world. I for one think its great to see some peopl take a stand about thigns (hell I'll support anything once), and people who want to advocate for peace and harmoy and less notum mining....Great.

Only remember this. If they start pounding in COntent, just for the few who wand to hold their signs, they will defeat the purpose of a game with a main concept of Anarchy and war. Hell you shoudl be happy there putting any kind of content in the game, and such as this will give you all the more reason to hug a tree. But creating stuff "for the idea of Diversity"....well Like I said earlier...Look at the name of the game. Don't mean to be a flame, but this games a War..pure and simple (even if we cant waste each other in a mass battle)

If I wanted peace and happyness...Id play the Sims

[Jynne]

Think of it this way: Peace will now be just as meaningful as war.

Clan Guild A and Omni-Tek Guild B create strongholds and notum mines at the cost of many millions of credits. They get some cool guild-wide benefits from their strongholds that boost recruiting, member effectiveness, and morale. They then attack each other (I mean, that's what we're supposed to do, right, PVP and all?) and fight over the course of one to two weeks. One or more likely both of the strongholds are severely damaged or destroyed, requiring the outlay of many more millions of credits to replace or repair. Guild A and Guild B thus decide to sign a peace treaty pledging not to attack each others fortresses anymore because they don't want to lose their nifty bonuses again and/or they'll eventually go broke if their strongholds keep getting nuked.

This booster pack isn't just about adding PVP, it's about adding meaningful org-scale economics and politics. Wars are expensive. People aren't going to be using and losing their resources for no reason, at least, not after the first few weeks of the booster pack's being out. When it's first released probably everyone will jump on the Let's Go To War! bandwagon and try out the new system. But then it will settle down as people realize that they're bleeding serious amounts of credits rebuilding their fort again and again, and start calling cease-fires.

Alliances will be forged, treaties will be signed, rules laid out, etc. Once in a while there will be an incident that results in open warfare, maybe triggered by a Tarasque battle, maybe triggered by a player-run Roleplay Event, maybe by GM events or even articles in the news services. There will probably also be fanatics on either side, but they will very likely be abandoned by the other orgs on their own faction while groups of orgs from the opposing faction crush them repeatedly.

Honestly, I like that vision of the booster pack better than just "build stronghold, blow up stronghold, rebuild stronghold" over and over again. I think that it may take some people longer to come to the "war hurts even the winner" conclusion, but in the long run, we'll have not war, but politics. To quote Von Clausewitz, "War is the continuation of politics by other means."

[______________Nelida]

and you're correct in that the land-grabbing aspect has good opportunites for diplomacy. Sorry I cam off too critical.

Specifically one thing that concerns me is suppression gas in these areas...if, for example CoA were to make an agreement with the Neutral Council to enforce the territorial rights of each others guild holdings then they each should be able to attack those of their OWN side that violate such a treaty. Hence gas will have to be set accordingly. Otherwise the idea of making treaties and upholding said treaties is rather empty.

Another question I have is if mines will have infinite access to notum. If the resource is limited in any one location, and eventually the usefulness of the mine runs out then I think we might have an interesting situation. However my guess is that is not the case and it is in infinite supply. I suppose an infinite supply of notum takes care of any nanomage concerns for the mining and export of notum though...

I hope you're right about this not being just about another PvP option...I guess we'll see. At the very least it will shake things up quite a bit on Rubi'ka.

Originally posted by Jynne
Think of it this way: Peace will now be just as meaningful as war.

Clan Guild A and Omni-Tek Guild B create strongholds and notum mines at the cost of many millions of credits. They get some cool guild-wide benefits from their strongholds that boost recruiting, member effectiveness, and morale. They then attack each other (I mean, that's what we're supposed to do, right, PVP and all?) and fight over the course of one to two weeks. One or more likely both of the strongholds are severely damaged or destroyed, requiring the outlay of many more millions of credits to replace or repair. Guild A and Guild B thus decide to sign a peace treaty pledging not to attack each others fortresses anymore because they don't want to lose their nifty bonuses again and/or they'll eventually go broke if their strongholds keep getting nuked.

This booster pack isn't just about adding PVP, it's about adding meaningful org-scale economics and politics. Wars are expensive. People aren't going to be using and losing their resources for no reason, at least, not after the first few weeks of the booster pack's being out. When it's first released probably everyone will jump on the Let's Go To War! bandwagon and try out the new system. But then it will settle down as people realize that they're bleeding serious amounts of credits rebuilding their fort again and again, and start calling cease-fires.

Alliances will be forged, treaties will be signed, rules laid out, etc. Once in a while there will be an incident that results in open warfare, maybe triggered by a Tarasque battle, maybe triggered by a player-run Roleplay Event, maybe by GM events or even articles in the news services. There will probably also be fanatics on either side, but they will very likely be abandoned by the other orgs on their own faction while groups of orgs from the opposing faction crush them repeatedly.

Honestly, I like that vision of the booster pack better than just "build stronghold, blow up stronghold, rebuild stronghold" over and over again. I think that it may take some people longer to come to the "war hurts even the winner" conclusion, but in the long run, we'll have not war, but politics. To quote Von Clausewitz, "War is the continuation of politics by other means."

[Bionitrous]

From what I hear, 'The Sims Online' could very well be the most ruthless online game to date. Not my cup of tea, but we're talking about a type of PvP that can really crush your spirits if you end up being a loser.

[Gridfan]

Too many questions unanswered. I need lots more info on this to comment any further on how it technically works.
I chatted to Tarryk a bit right after this news hit us.
And I quickly realized my own assumptions was shot down by more assumptions lol.

It definetly heated up the discussions around here.
And this will definatly increase the need for more peace loving people as well. (more conflict means more need for peace lovers etc).

[Jynne]

As long as the fort/mine system has some sort of construction/repair expense attached to it, Nelida, and especially if defending and guarding the mines and forts is expensive, people will eventually realize that a constant state of war is unsupportable.

Diplomacy and politics would practically become necessary or else nobody would have any forts or any mines at all (you'd destroy mine, I'd destroy yours, I'd rebuild mine, you'd destroy it, I'd run out of cash... two days later so would you... etc), and thus nobody would be enjoying the org-wide benefits of these things. To use one of my trademark cliches, "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."

My main concern is thus 'griefer' orgs attacking strongholds. Orgs that don't have anything to defend (ie nothing to lose) just attacking orgs that do for the heck of it. I don't see as there's anything in this system to incentivize those people toward peace.

[Praecautus]

My first thought when reading about this was

command and conqueor

make your base, defend your resource. should be fun.

The more i have thought about this booster, mini-me expansion the more i kind of like the idea. It should cost cash to make your towers and to make the bases to attack the towers, that should stop griefer orgs unless they have some rich backers.

Certain groups could be violently against mining notum, this is an utter godsend your at war with everyone, hundreds of legitimate targets and you'll sure make a name for yourself.
Those who are peacfully opposed have more RP potential, there is a war going to explode in our faces now. you show your moral self by not setting up a mining camp.

Groups for the mining, adds an extra level of realism. and we are naive if we think any conflict between clans and Ot ISNT about notum as it most assuredly is. this adds an extra tension level to everything, each group knows the mines will add bonuses pvp wise. raises the stakes for us RP diplomats and wanna be politicians.

As for notum being finite. It would be cool if it was because this would add tactics and so forth. however, as i understand it notum should last 1000s of years on RK. Perhaps different areas will have different notum values. So for example, Borealis is worthless to attack as it has a small 'value' of notum as opposed to eg Stret West Bank which has a higher 'value'. somewhat like the continents being worth armies in Risk.

I am just disapointed that its a mini-me expansion instead of the full blown thing and we are essentially paying for Shadowlands in installments. will i buy this though? yep course i will, i like to play AO if it adds to my enjoyment and works then sure

[______________Martov]

Well, if you want to encourage preservation, you've got to provide a reward.

Here's my idea: Nature reserves! Somehow (I'm not even sure on how this notum mine works, so bear with me) you would have a choice between a notum mine and a reserve. The reserve would be a regular empty area except, it would provide food & water, and thus attract some wildlife. The wildlife could then be hunted!

Imagine having guild's own, personal hunting grounds! No more crowding at the pipes! Or, as a money-making venture, you could charge people to hunt in your reserve.

Also, I'll borrow Doc Tiny's idea of 'notum values' by saying that in areas that have higher notum values, you'll get nastier creatures.

Man... I think I'll create my own just outside Borealis...

[____________Travesty]

I think this would have been great half a year ago. Think about the sheer number of lvl 160-200 folks that will run around on Rubi-ka by this december with nothing better to do than blast away at strongholds. They die, they res, they blast away at strongholds. It will cost nothing for a big guild to field at least four high level assault teams to rip into a stronghold. It will cost the small guild that is defending it all of its bank creds to rebuild somewhere else.

I really hope Im wrong. But, the balancing act that the developers will have to perform will be incredible. Looking at how balanced pvp is after a half year of beta and a year of live play, Im not that confident....

[Mire]

(OOC)

I do not understand what everyone is so scared of? The Rpers should be drooling for this. Until this point we have had nothing to call "our own"

They give it to us..

Now you complain because your afraid someone might take it away? pshia! How lazy could you be? I see every day at the end of alot of orginizations name some type of -=name here=- to represent some type of alliance. Are these alliances good for anything else besides false bottoms? Now you may see how strong these alliances are.

And the balance thing is rather easy, they already have the code for it. You don't believe me?

Me lvl 10 NT walks in to arena,

lvl 60 ma "want to duel'?

me lvl 10 NT, your kidding right..ok noob sure..

lvl 60 ma "what the (insert obsene word here), I can't attack you"

me lvl 10 NT, Joo a NOOB, of course you can't attack me you dolt! duh!

So don't worry your selves over if the code is gonna be ok. its there, it works, it will be ok!

Now all you rpers (or those who say, think want to be) go make true alliances, go make true treaties, go make true trade routes (some one is gonna have to supply the front lines and yes, oh yes there will be front lines now)

Those who want peace, well, with out war thats what you got, You have not had to work hard at it, ah too bad, Now you get to work at the peace you have been so wanting (and havn't realized you had it)

Just think of all the possibilites, and don't worry about what was in the past, Think of it as this way, If the devs actually decided to push Shadowlands so as to compete with SWG and put out another incomplete, broken piece of software don't you just know they would file for help from thier government? (is Norway a socialistic country?) They have the smarts to learn from thier mistakes and realized that Shadowlands is going to be incomplete by the time SWG is released (thier major upcomming competitor) So they do the next best thing, and what do you know? They set another industry standard (or future one).

Bravo to FC for making the capitalistic desicion to put out something that will be on the shelves less the cost of SWG inticing thier players the ability not to spend $50.00 USD but to only spend what? maybe $20.00USD if that much on a game they already play? Bravo, bout time.

And to all you "I want the other things you promised fixed first" or the "I wan't my apartment bigger, fatter, and more cluttered!"
or I wan't my character (insert profession here) to be an uber character just like (insert profession here). Please understand, I am by no means a FC fanboy, (even though it may sound like it) I just can see what this is, why it is happening, and what it will bring. And I have yet to see a negitive side of this, only speculations from armchair designers, coders and buisness managers who couldn't do half the job this dev team has done with what they have, nor could run this game as well. If I am wrong, or you think I am wrong, Prove it! send me your game, let me play it, otherwise get over your selves.

(ok rant done)

[________________Xira]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
From what I hear, 'The Sims Online' could very well be the most ruthless online game to date. Not my cup of tea, but we're talking about a type of PvP that can really crush your spirits if you end up being a loser.

Eh? Hua? LMAO explain this please.

Or did you mean shadowbane?

[Nyadach]

I have to admit, I love the idea. The thought as soon as I read it was StarCraft here we come! Turret nests around your mines...ohhh I can't wait.

Gaute said that folks wont be able to just fly on over in a Yalm without the triple-A blasting them down (and those pesky MPs mwhahaha)...which is great. Shame though he didn't go for the ideas of land mines, fencing and maybe baracades...either way though, gotta love the idea of the towers and the ability to upgrade them, tweak them. Makes those Engi's even more popular for the trade skill upgrades And hopefully the NT might reclaim its role as long range artillery piece to pound the towers

The possibilities have my mind going wild with anticipation...RP wise, and politically it will be good also as others have pointed out with treatys and alliances being formed with an actual true goal of defending something they have control of, not something currently which doesnt go anywhere unless its being backed officially. The idea seems good for the escalation of the conflict, good for RP, good as a money sink, and also a good totally new roll for players to be involved with.

[____________Travesty]

I love the idea of having treaties and using diplomatic relations for protection. But, think of the sheer number of enemy guilds? You may convince Div 9 not to attack you and your allies, but will you be able to get the other sixteen omni giants/alliances to not toast you?

Again, I hope Im wrong(Goddess I want to be wrong!) and there are checks already in play or better yet guild tools that will force you to 'declare war' on specific guilds. Without some checks in place, the days of the small combat guild is over.

[Praecautus]

In UO there was an option to declare war on a guild. I think one leader had to send the request and the other leader had to accept before hostilities could officially occur Might be nice if there was something similar in this booster. although is that too carebear? i think whatever Funcom put in someone somehwere is going to complain to is either too pro-pvp or too anti-pvp

[Jynne]

In the chat, Gaute said that they planned to make defense easier than attack. He also said that there'd be some limits on who can attack whom. But as with so much of Funcom's upcoming stuff, we just don't have enough information to judge what's going to come.

But my opinion is that the 'society' of the game won't change. There'll be a period of upheaval with the "ooh shiny new!" factor, and then things will stabilize with most people taking a "preserve the org benefits" stance, oriented towards maintaining and improving their PVM play.

Why? Because most people could care less about PVP, but they want to have every little bonus they can in PVM.

[Gridfan]

Yep. we need more info.
But also remember ther is 3-4 months until the booster pack is finished and comes out.

until then. We got several months to give suggestions and ideas.
Who knows, maybe they'll implement some of the ideas we give?
In fact it seems some ideas are allready planned for that booster.
So how about making a list of pro's and cons' ands solutions/suggestions and ideas and post it in um. suggestions part of forum? (game tech one?).

They announced it and now they want feedback. So lets tell them how we all want this to work
After all we are paying for the booster, so why not let us decide what the booster will contain of features on this tower thingy? lol

[MissMaul]

My award-winning essay on this new article.

You guys ready? Here it comes, and it's very complicated...





Sweeeeeeeeeeeet.