Mongo makes agg management too easy. Be it for end game or pocket teams.
What I would suggest is to add a 15s local cooldown on it. It won't change much in PvP as the hot part has a 22.5s duration. The effect in PvE won't be huge but might add some - read tiny - challenge.
Can't think on anything else to change in enf tools that could be done outside the re-balancing. Do you have any other ideas?
blah
Not mobs that ignore taunts for one. Anyways a lot of this will be general game suggestions rather than specific enf toolset changes since there really is little that can be done other than simple nerfing.
The local cooldown would be good, and might force enforcers to pull mobs via LoS and a regular taunt pull before actually mongoing. We would have to tone down the heal aggro though otherwise it would be impossible to hold aggro on multiple mobs, which is our strong point. We would have to be careful of mezzes too, which wipe hatelists and cause a lot of aggro issues as it is.
Increasing the number of %heal effeciency debuffs in pvm would make better to have more health and make the healers work more.
Multiple bosses with seperate effects was a great part of 12-man that makes it hard for a single strong tanker to be the only one you need, but the Crat boss mez cut most the potential from that. More cases of this means you either need a really good tank or multiple tanks, both seem reasonable.
Encounters where the tank is warped along with the boss to various areas, forcing the team to move with the tank, maybe a nano range debuff or walls to prevent easy healing.
%damage effects, like the collector dot, that can cause you to not use your max health. I would want our max health buff to be a faster cast so that we can bring it back up, but I do not like the alternative means of forcing us to stay low health, which is the need to run around and move.
Nano pool wipes, which make our infinite nano less infinite, and we have to use nano regain tools to continue holding aggro.
An encounter where prolonged aggro with a mob makes it harder to tank. For example, every 10 seconds a boss hits you with a hostile and nameless NCU effect that lasts maybe 60 seconds, and the hostile NCU randomly debuffs you or increases the damage only you take. This would make an additional tank and careful aggro management necessary. Being able to see the amount of "hate" a target has would be incredibly beneficial in a case such as this.
High damage mobs that force us to use our fear line instead of taunting would be nice. This makes the MA fear useful as well, although more crat love would be unnecessary. Kinda do this in vortexx but that is about it.
Then again, nerfing SL/DB essences and doctor heals may be all we need
The only difficulty I could see, would just be a taunt rotation of mongo/imalice.
Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
President of Steadfast
And way too many alts...
IMO several things need to happen.
iMongo should taunt for less, maybe 15k.
iMalice should taunt for less, maybe 25k.
Damage should give more aggro, making it impossible to hold aggro from a DD class solely by imongoing.
Enforcer dmg shields should have a chance to proc the enfo taunt procs (LE procs/Dreadbringer-line), to help hold AoE aggro while at the same time giving other raid-members an incitement not to steal aggro.
Heal aggro should stay where it is, still possible to gain aggro if going all out (4xBGH in pande), but generally not going to.
On top of this, I'd love a nano on a semi-long timer (5-10 min) that wipes a mobs hatelist and then taunts for 15k. Nothing overpowered, but a "get over here and leave that squishy alone!" nano.
Why play melee when crat pets can do your job?
Originally Posted by Wyldebeast
I tanked org pande with the RK 10k mango without realizing once (though I think it might have been slightly more messy than usual).. The only big thing I noticed was that one shade was taking more aggro than he usually did. Worse mango and better taunt procs could be more interesting. Sure, chain BI would have the potential to take add aggro again, and certainly would with lazy enfs, but that just adds some ****e. You can mango while the doc is UBTing, so the enf gets a head start with aggro.
No, please keep taunt = damage for hate generation. Just play with the numbers on taunts if necessary. Possibly reduce heal aggro to 75% efficiency or whatever, but I'd just leave that alone, too.
Ice Burn (pen quest nano) used to have, and probably still has though not visible on auno.org, a 10% chance to proc a 10k taunt on whoever hits the enforcer. One could play with numbers, but as far as I can tell, that's exactly what you describe.
Wasn't that usually the case already before improved mango? Maybe we need some more taunt than that, to account for the increase in %heal efficiency..
..or use Improved Element of Malice if mango isn't enough? Seriously, though, if the squishy pulled aggro through some fault of his own, this could be a nice opportunity for said squishy to learn something
In retrospect, I've finally come to believe that the hugely improved taunt on improved mango might have been a bit over the top: It's a bit too dependable, so raid chaos (and much of the time: fun) was significantly reduced, and it's so powerful that the only time enfs really have to work for their aggro is in a cabbage size challenge with another enf.
Last edited by Redbar; Jun 11th, 2010 at 20:54:36.
Hlep gnak!
If you want something like this, then increase enforcer damage by 50%. A tank should not be useless because he builds himself around taking damage rather than dishing it out.
No, certain encounters spawn multiple adds. The work around would obviously be having a 2nd tank which would also require a 2nd doc. In AOs current state it can be difficult to find the people, let alone the right classes, to do pvm raids.
Nerfing mongo isn't the solution to make pvm more difficult.
The problem with PvM is the fact that the debuffs and buffs characters have gotten are too powerful while the mobs haven't gotten tougher. Only thing that has changed is what tricks high level encounter mobs do.
A radical solution would be going back and adjusting those debuffs and lowering them and then increases mob difficulty. The question is though, what makes a mob difficult? High damage? Hits super fast? Spawns adds? Stuns? Roots? etc etc. If you focus on high damage and speed (even with debuffs going) the mob will be too powerful (like Atalas when it first came out) and people will piss and moan. Nerf it too much and people will walk away going "lolz pvm is so easy keke".
Gear definitely plays a role. Pre LE, enforcers didn't have a 50 aad helm, hud/util, and back piece or a 60 AAD research line. Most enforcers back then probably had around 500-600 AAD and 1300ish evades. Mobs were a lot harder because we didn't have the evades and gear that we do now. If you toss in a crat, adv, keeper, RI to a setup back then the defense an enforcer gets is very close to what a typical enforcer runs around in now. That definitely made the enforcer a lot better but not totally over powered like now when they get those same buffs.
But back to what I said earlier. What makes an encounter difficult to the point where you walk away and go "Man I feel satisfied"? Personally, I enjoy pande because of all the mobs in the area and pulling too many can result in death. Downfall is too much HP that makes the instance long on purpose. Due to instancing, and the fact people are so uber, pande doesn't require the numbers it once did. Pande still has difficult points, or at least places you can make difficult if you feel like having some fun. For example, rushing TNH. People make it easier because they mezz tnh and then pull adds then complain pvm is too easy, or use LOS exploit/abuse. Of course pvm is easy when you want/do use certain professions tool set and it should, but currently it all revolves around having that one love child, the crat. There are several classes that have some decent debuffs but they get shadowed by how much init a crat can debuff and aren't even remotely considered.
Because of how wack agg is in this game the taunt on the enforcer end game nanos shouldn't be touched. It is something enforcer's have wanted for a long ass time, it enables enforcers to hold agg while allowing DD professions to do their job. DD plays a role in killing the mob swiftly so that it cant use that debuff, or nuke and making it so a tank cant hold agg to let those classes utilize their damage is sloppy, illogical and not fun.
I dont think nerfing the DB essence is the way to go just yet when mob difficulty hasn't changed. As far as pvp goes, I think the snare should be removed but enforcers get some sort of debuff, like -AAD or AR, this is strictly the DB essence but I am open to other ideas. The same goes for doctor heals, wait till there are changes in pvm to make changes to characters tool set.
Who is your enfo?
@ Redbar
The idea of raising taunt on damage was not to help the enf, but to make the enfs job harder and forcing DDers to think more. I want aggro-managenment not only to be the tanks job, but something that everyone in the raid has to think about.
You're right on Ice Burn, that is what I'm thinking, but it should be reduced in efficiency too, IMO. It's just too easy to run into a big group, pop imango and then /disco.
The reason for the hatelist-wiping taunt would be to save the doc or calmer in a tricky situation, hence why it needs to be on a long timer. As it is now, just using imalice is too easy. imalice shouldn't be a guaranteed save, which is why I suggest the reduction in efficiency.
@ Gatester
The idea is not to make the enforcer tank by doing damage, but instead making it harder for others to avoid getting aggro and thus (hopefully) make other members more aware of the situation around them. Being a DD class should be about more than being able to press all your buttons when they light up.
Managing aggro should be a challenge and should be fun for those involved. Not pressing imongo/imalice on cooldown.
I say let us take damage a lot better and let mobs deal much more damage. That way, everyone has to mind what they're doing and not just press damage perks. Non-tanks should die when a raid-mob hits them 3 times or a boss hits them twice.
Why play melee when crat pets can do your job?
Don't see how's that relevant but there it is: http://people.anarchy-online.com/cha.../2/name/nogoat
blah
One risk I see with path is that in a game with 14 professions and an increasing number of single team instances, making one particular profession[1] even more important may be the exact opposite of what's good for the game. Nobody really benefits in the long run if the enforcer becomes the next crat.
We can understand "tanks" a bit more widely, and keep soldiers and keepers as secondary tanks and maybe advies and someone else (MAs?) as tertiary tanks, but that still leaves about half the profs as lepers that can only join if they're good friends of the team members with the blessed profs.
[1] really two. If a team of 220s didn't need a doc to keep the tanking enf alive, they most likely didn't need an enf either.
Hlep gnak!
So you have a maxed out enfo? Ofc you would feel PvM is too easy. This was also my point. If this really bothers you, equip your medsuit and swap your alphas with some tl4 symbiants next time you want to raid. Another enfo nerf suggestion really pi$$ me off.
You should roll a keeper if you want some challenge. I heard they suck. Oh wait...
I like mongo the ways it is now. Could you not just tell the enf you are teaming with to slack on pressing mongo and get the same desired result you are looking for? Sure the enf in question will be labeled gimp to anyone who doesn't know you ask him to slack but the raid would be more of a challenge, and isn't that all you are after?
Major "Grimclaw" Sinister Solitus - Enforcer | Alucard "Opigrim" Ashwell Opifex - Shade | Queen "Shoomi" Hex Opifex - Keeper
That isn't the point of this thread.
The broader spectrum encompasses all of AO, but here we are talking about how enforcers are making encounters easier and what allows us that.
I dont want easy mode in a game, but I also dont want super ridiculously hard. There needs to be a balance, right now there isn't. Mobs are nerfed, professions are OPed, its that simple.
Last edited by MachSchau; Jun 12th, 2010 at 15:51:08.
..and the point of my post was to make it clear that there is a difference between a gimp 215 enfo (or even a gimp 220) , and a maxed out 220/30/70 enfo who owns the place.
No one wants enforcers to be unable to hold aggro. The best reason to have an enforcer is so your DD profs do not get aggro, because they already sacrifice survival to make the raid go faster. If you make it so enforcers cannot hold aggro over anyone that does good damage, you make the profession whose only job is aggro management obsolete.
Sorry, but we do not base our ENDGAME raids around half-built enforcers. No one is asking for ely hecklers to hit for 3500 damage a hit, we are asking for more challenging raids and boss encounters. It is your right to ask for a half-assed enforcer in a med-suit to tank Sector 42, but you will not find much support from quality players.
Raids with a crat are easy, raids without a crat are generally hard. As was mentioned already, the debuffs have gotten out of hand. A raid should be easy if every profession was included and everyone of their debuffs was currently running on a single mob, otherwise one or two professions should not have the same effect.
Nerfing crats wouldn't necessarily make raids more challenging though, just harder and reliant on more professions. Perhaps the best way to make raids challenging is more reliance on all participants not screwing up just like within Mitaar. One player misses a panel and tank gets stunned, then players are not careful with DD and the stunned tank misses panels and the raid just got that much more complicated.
That's why my suggestion wont change anything between a 215 or a 220 enfo as long as the player use his brain.
I don't think any other game got a prof who can keep agg from all mobs in a large area by just smashing a key a few times in a row.
And anyway, if a gimp 215 enfo can't tank pande anymore, I won't be sorry about that.
blah
215 leveling enfo with nerfed imongo/imalice taunt like you suggest= cant keep aggro from DD players
215 leveling enfo with imongo/imalice like today = keeps aggro - like it should be
3. Taunts - Again, changes slated for this across the board for all professions as I understand, but specifically for us, GOOD changes, while for others, taunt nerfs, which of course they will likely appreciate in some cases. A welcome change again for PVM enfos leveling.
i don't think reduction in taunt is the way to make raids harder. i think an approach to make raids harder and more fun would be to make bosses more active, and do things like clearing their debuffs, resist boss mezz, frequently and randomly wipe their hatelists, call for random adds to support them, etc
someone called for me?
Last edited by Biancha; Jun 13th, 2010 at 06:31:51.
but the thing is, a 215 enf is more than capable of keeping aggro off anything except the most dedicated DD players like smg soldiers/shades/Shen MA etc at endgame.
So it makes sense that a 215 enf can keep aggro off anything up to 219 but can only compete with the 220 DDs when the enf reaches 220 himself.
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