Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: SL calms and Doc aggro

  1. #1
    Sl calms and docs getting agro.

    I have ask the doc in our org who I team with alot if after fighting 1 mob in a sl mission if he gets agro from the mob the instant we start to attack it. He said no, never has when im arround with my crat. All I do in missions is sl calm once on a mob, and recalm if someone breaks it but I have never been told of the mobs going after the doc of the team first. My reasoning below.

    1. Not all SL calms are better. You have to go to anarchy mainframe or another cite to see what ranges the sl calms work on. The next better one doesn't mean its the next best one. Poor form on FC part to not tell us in the description of the nano what lvl ranges it will effect. Empowered Cubical **** has the lvl ranges that most crats will face from pen on upward. And I have done some limited tests but if the SL calm is used on mobs in the lvl range of its effects it seems to land much easier too.

    2. SL calms clearing hate list. Again you have to look at the lvl range the sl calm effects. You have zero chance to wipe a hate list if the mob isn't in that lvl range so that can explain alot of why docs can and do get a built up hate list. Some SL calms affect a nice range of mob lvls where others are so limited they are useless or very limited.

    3. Roots have much the same problem with the lvl ranges, but do work just having 2 charms, a bot and you hitting with a moderate chance to break makes it break that much faster compaired to say only you hitting the rooted mob. Root warping I have notice but only seems to be again when the lvl of the mob doesn't match the lvl of the roots effects. Client side seems to think the mob is rooted but server side only sees the snare effect.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Shevaya
    But as a general rule i would advise RK calming over your SL calm.
    On my own little doc i notice i have alot of aggro when the crat in team only uses his SL calms.
    I consider any crat whom doesn't RK calm over SL calms a bad crat when I'm playing my 209 Doc...

    Because guaranteed, I will be tanking all the adds for awhile if he only SL calms. Heals pull a lot of hate...

    So love your docs and RK calm.. your teams will be better.
    Rookie Czarina - Opifex Pistol Crat ~220 with 19 Alien Titles~
    Czestiny - Solitus Rifle Crat ~26 with 2 Alien Titles~
    Czealous - Atrox 2-handed Blunt Crat ~21 with 2 Alien Titles~
    Czombie - Nanomage Assualt Rifle Crat ~15 with 2 Alien Titles~

    Proud Opifex Crat of Tranquility
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo
    I heard the beast is rerolling as an adv

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Czarina
    I consider any crat whom doesn't RK calm over SL calms a bad crat when I'm playing my 209 Doc...

    Because guaranteed, I will be tanking all the adds for awhile if he only SL calms. Heals pull a lot of hate...

    So love your docs and RK calm.. your teams will be better.
    I still have found a lack of the SL calms getting docs im my teams killed. We did 4 or 5 hours of stacking in inf, doc healing tank and we would stack 4 to 6 at a time. I only used my SL calms once per add unless enfo hit wrong taunt (mongo) or time expired on the short SL calms. Zero times the doc drew agro from the sl calmed adds. The only time the doc drew agro and die was when he CH on the last of 5 hecks we were stacking, hit wrong heal.

    I love my docs and so far not one has complained about getting heat from calmed mobs because of agro build up. And i have been asking docs for awhile now and none have experenced this draw back of SL calms everyone talks about, atlest in my teams.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by magi001

    I love my docs and so far not one has complained about getting heat from calmed mobs because of agro build up. And i have been asking docs for awhile now and none have experenced this draw back of SL calms everyone talks about, atlest in my teams.
    Well I've personally died from SL calms in Pen Missions at 209. I never complain about the crat though... I just don't team with them again.

    It depends on how good your tank is, because there was a soldier 'Hellspawns' whom I could use CH with and never get aggro.

    But for most standard teams the squishier the main tank is = the more you have to heal = the higher you move up the hate list.

    It's all about the hate list. If the doc has to heal more often and perk more often, he move up the hate list faster. Heals are like an area taunt. Damage is a single mob taunt.



    One thing is certain, not using RK calms ups the chance of doc death. Using them only slightly lowers damage and only nuke damage at that.
    Rookie Czarina - Opifex Pistol Crat ~220 with 19 Alien Titles~
    Czestiny - Solitus Rifle Crat ~26 with 2 Alien Titles~
    Czealous - Atrox 2-handed Blunt Crat ~21 with 2 Alien Titles~
    Czombie - Nanomage Assualt Rifle Crat ~15 with 2 Alien Titles~

    Proud Opifex Crat of Tranquility
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo
    I heard the beast is rerolling as an adv

  5. #5
    When you SL calm a mob, it is "stunned" and doesn't lose aggro. While it is next to a team, and the doc is healing, each heal the doc does generates aggro. Furthermore, a good doc is going to ubt any mob when a crat is calming since crat calms don't break on debuffs. UBT is a powerful taunt.

    In a multiadd situation, a crat can SL calm each mob, and then RK calm each one, when the mob is RK calmed the hate list is wiped and any aggro the doc has generated is wiped.

    A crat can also manage aggro in a team if for instance you have a low level toon with a good weapon (fixer with CSMG) that is oding a lower level enforcer, and taking more damage than the doc can heal. If the crat rk calms the mob, then the player generating the most taunt can regain aggro. Be sparing with calm aggro management however, since each calm causes the the mobs heal delta to skyrocket, but calm aggro management is part of the crat toolset, and is to be used in select instances. For lower level crats doing RK team missions, it is very useful when say an agent or NT gets agg on a mob and can't shake it, letting agg shift to a more suitable tank.

    For those who haven't noticed the SL doc aggro, it really depends on team dynamics, it is gonna be less noticable when you don't have alot of damage in your team, or you have slacking players and is seen with more adds.

    At higher level teams with backup healers (fixers, adv, keepers, ma's), the doc taunt may not outtaunt what the backup healers are doing and of course with a 214+ doc a little aggro doesn't matter that much anyway. For lower level docs though, you should protect them with your entire toolset.

    I know when I was leveling my doc I took note of lazy crats who didn't recalm and let me get sent to reclaim, and they didn't get team invites :P
    LVL 220 Vanguard Out to pasture
    LVL 220 Eternalist researching
    LVL 220 Dictator Retired
    LVL 220 Field Marshal Resetting/twinking

    LVL 220 Savior (researching)

    Firetree Server, Horde of course

  6. #6
    Good info. Had forgotten about this...thank you for the discussion.

  7. #7
    I have posted my argument on another thread but I feel that this is a more appropriate place.

    I understand how a doc can draw all the agroo if you use only SL calms but Im not sure if spamming RK calms is more efficient than the tactic Im going to present below ( let it be noted that I have tested this tactic but not for as long time as I would like, so if there is a serious bug please tell me so)

    SL calms can wipe the mobs hate list with a probability of about 24% (0.92*0.25 if Im interpreting the numbers right) but RK calms can land with a much lower probability (based on personal experience and from what I read in those forums). So....

    ...in a situation where, lets say, we have a target and 4 adds, instead of SL/RK calming the adds which would take about 4 SL calms and 4*(5 to 10)=(20 to 40) RK calms, I SL calm all the adds and let them stay there (recalming them if needed due to expiration or mongo's). Those mobs build their hate lists towards the doc but.... when the first target is down and the tank is moving to the second one, I recast SL calm on the attacked mob till its hatelist is wiped (this usually takes 1 or 2 tries and in theory it takes about 4 times). This ensures that the attacked mob will leave the doc alone and during the fights Im free to contribute to the team damage with my nukes or do whatever else I have to do rather than spamming RK calms on the calmed adds.

    Till now the docs I worked with stayed healthy and happy but there is always the possibility that I was just lucky. Please tell me if and how am I wrong with this tactic.

    Kyr
    Mr. Kyriakos Proud Secretary of RK1 Clan Assembly ...
    Always wearing a suit

    [Assembly] Varija: horny it is
    [Assembly] Xeenah: Thanks for the hand!

  8. #8
    In a 4 add situation your role becomes aggro manager. You have 3 pets and are shooting the mob, so nuke damage is a tad secondary. After you have sl calmed all the adds, you can go through each one rk calming, still shooting and sending pets. Since you are recasting contemplation multiple times, odds are by the time you get 1 or 2 adds rk calmed, the first mob is dead, at which time you redirect your pets and weapon at the next target, re sl calming the original mobs, and then rk calming them.

    Again, especially if no enforcer is on the team, or if you have a weak tank and low level doc, you can best sustain the team by focusing on aggro management, and lower your damage priority, just as a doc focuses on healing and less on damage depending on the situation.
    LVL 220 Vanguard Out to pasture
    LVL 220 Eternalist researching
    LVL 220 Dictator Retired
    LVL 220 Field Marshal Resetting/twinking

    LVL 220 Savior (researching)

    Firetree Server, Horde of course

  9. #9
    I don't think you are wrong Kyr, but depending on the doc and the mob it might not be the best... For good teams, it's probably all you need to do though. But you don't often know the bad teams till the **** hits the fan.

    Pen Hard Vortexoid comes to mind =) And of course.. don't forget that time that someone screws up and uses an AoE... the AoE frees all adds which instantly all hit the doctor. If the mobs are perma-calmed then they kill the person that AoEd on first attack, til the doctor heals. A difference of about 1 hit per mob.

    Most of which I'm telling you is negated by avoiding pickup teams... or random person you've never heard of.
    Rookie Czarina - Opifex Pistol Crat ~220 with 19 Alien Titles~
    Czestiny - Solitus Rifle Crat ~26 with 2 Alien Titles~
    Czealous - Atrox 2-handed Blunt Crat ~21 with 2 Alien Titles~
    Czombie - Nanomage Assualt Rifle Crat ~15 with 2 Alien Titles~

    Proud Opifex Crat of Tranquility
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo
    I heard the beast is rerolling as an adv

  10. #10
    If this problem is as bad as it is made out to be, why am i not seeing it? I have been in enough teams where if this happened on a constant basis the team and docs would hate me or leave the team because of it you would think. Last time I looked I got my nanos from the same shops or mobs other crats have. I have done lots of stacking teams both indoors and outdoors, without a problem.

    When these instances where docs get hammered on what SL calm were you using on what lvl of mob? I can get my first SL mezz to land on alot of 200+ mobs and it says successful, it stops the mob. But im guessing thats where the problems come in.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by magi001

    When these instances where docs get hammered on what SL calm were you using on what lvl of mob? I can get my first SL mezz to land on alot of 200+ mobs and it says successful, it stops the mob. But im guessing thats where the problems come in.

    these instances I was on my doc and not CHing... not Perking, just using the best heal for my level and trying to keep the tank alive...

    The mob gets stopped, but his hate list keeps counting.... Since no one is attacking the mob, the main thing accruing on the hatelist is heals. Since Heals have an AoE taunt effect, i.e. when a doc heals all mobs in the area get that heal added to their hate list.

    I never saw this problem from the otherside.. as my crat hit 220 a year and a half ago and I only ever used the SL Calm then RK Calm method. But even then.. docs in my teams could CH, because I would RK Calm a mob that changed aggro to aweak mob.
    Rookie Czarina - Opifex Pistol Crat ~220 with 19 Alien Titles~
    Czestiny - Solitus Rifle Crat ~26 with 2 Alien Titles~
    Czealous - Atrox 2-handed Blunt Crat ~21 with 2 Alien Titles~
    Czombie - Nanomage Assualt Rifle Crat ~15 with 2 Alien Titles~

    Proud Opifex Crat of Tranquility
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo
    I heard the beast is rerolling as an adv

  12. #12
    Former Bureaucrat Professional Shevaya's Avatar
    I notice the exact same thing as Czarina...

    a mob that is only SL calmed will put my doctor higher on the hatelist for each heal i cast. Ofcourse sometimes you get a good team that requires little healing and even a single mongo is enough to get the mob right of you. No CH, no perk heals...just casting the highest heal i can when needed. every point you heal = 1 point on the hatelist of a mob. (CH just adds another big fat taunt to it).

    You can quickly see it happening as for every heal you cast you see 'Attacked by ...' spam.

    also note that alot of docs UBT the mobs. sometimes before or after they are calmed. A mob that has been RK calmed that gets UBT'd after that will go into aggro mode but with the restrict movement and fighting flags still intact.

    But let's not forget there is a way of knowing if the calmed mob is really calmed.
    cast SL calm on the mob then /assist the mob
    *it says 'target is not in a fight' then all is ok and as it should be
    *you suddenly are targetting yourself or one of your teammates...mob is still building up it's hatelist.

    @magi001: as a tip: try /assist on every mob you SL calm but not RK calm and see if the mob is trully 'calmed'. Maybe your teams usually consist of the same tank/doc...then you all know how to play into each other and then the doc doesnt get that much heal aggro. just spam /assist a few times on the SL calmed mob till the first target is dead. did you get 'target is not in a fight' all the time? (dont take this as a critique..but it might help 'show' our point of view)
    Retired 220/20 Bureaucrat Shevaya
    Retired 220/18 Doctor Jezzara
    Retired 218/16 Soldier Alliya

  13. #13
    Do I notice the mob spamming "attacked by ***" messages yes. Then again so did the rest of the team, while we were rebuffing i asked. So if everyone was getting the spam that would suggest that the doc wasn't adding enough taunt agro from healing or the sl calmed mob would only spam attacks at the doc or its building up agro from everyone. Now if a SL calm lets people build up agro yet what types build up? Damage, healing, taunts, ect.

    Im not going to say it doesn't happen,i just have not seen it personaly, but if sl calms worked as poorly as most post I have read, I would think I would notice as well as my teamates. Im still betting alot of the times this agro problem happens is when the sl calm used on a mob of say lvl 200 and they use a sl calm with random effects that are for mobs of lvl 100 to lvl 170.

    I do have a favorit doc I team with alot, but I have teamed with all sorts of teams too. Im sure the /assist thing would show a difference between the sl calm and RK one. But realy Im lvl 218 and I have yet to have one doc or other tell me "are you dumb or something use your RK calms, don't you know sl ones = doc death."
    Last edited by magi001; Jan 7th, 2006 at 00:18:17.

  14. #14
    Its true I promise, its always a mixed blessing as a doc to get a crat in the team who you can see doesn't understand this principle because once something is calmed you start getting major agg spam building as you are healing, doing damage on multiple targets isn't building up agg on a rooted/sl calmed target. Healing will however, watch how everytime an sl calmed mob is released, it makes a beeline for the doc and that doc will tank the next mob no matter what at least until the tank can rebuild agg, which can take between 20 seconds and never.
    Steveo 220 Clan NT RK2
    Contagion 220 Clan Doc RK2


    Proud wielder of the Pitchfork of Satenia

  15. #15
    Tiun is a good place to see this kind of mob beheviors.

    Tiun spot with SL calming crat + no real tank = a lot doc agro.


    220 Dictator & Adept
    220 Field Marshal & Talented
    216 Eternalist & Adept
    204 Saint & Intermediate


    --Total Levels Gained--
    Rubi-Ka: 2000+ | Shadow: 50+ | Alien: 40+ | Very old Member of the Grumpy Old Crat Bunch

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nova
    Tiun is a good place to see this kind of mob beheviors.

    Tiun spot with SL calming crat + no real tank = a lot doc agro.

    Been there done that, still no problem with doc agro just using sl calms. I have had shades tanking, agents and yes even and nt and a trader wanted to tank a bit. Doc had to heal alot but we seen no problems.

    If the sl calmed mob spams "attacked by ***" messages to the most of the team while calmed, that leads me to believe docs are not the only ones adding to the mobs hate list. I even get spammed with the messages in the team to, so I wonder what im doing to out agro the doc? I would think if docs were building up such a huge agro and no one else is on a sl calmed mob then they would be the only one getting the messages.

  17. #17
    Although there are valid points made here about SL calms it doesn't change the fact that as long as the team uses /assist and you got a decent tank, the SL calms shouldn't cause any problems for the doc whatsoever. When SKing my shade I have explicitly asked crats only to use SL calms, and I can start of with a backstab. Not a single time have I seen a doc get aggro from that.

    In a weak team this might be a problem, and ofcourse casting a RK calm on top of it isn't alot of work, but in a good team this just shouldn't be necessary.

    If the sl calmed mob spams "attacked by ***" messages to the most of the team while calmed, that leads me to believe docs are not the only ones adding to the mobs hate list.
    No, everyone gets added to hate list, social damage to the current target etc will also influence the hate list, the point was probably that docs tend to be the ones that die.

    Lich × Finalizer × Dictator × Vanguard × Techno Arch-Wizard × Godfather × Eternalist × Saviour × Deity × Guru


    'People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they never use' - Kierkegaard

  18. #18
    You probably just killed the mob fast, and then alphad the adds so hard that doc didnt get aggro (due to not needing to heal all the time) Like a few others have said, the quality of the team usually reflects how this tactic will work....i usually spam contemplation because the only other thing i can do is nuke.....so i spam contemplation and concentrate on perks/stimming the tank/doc. Better safe then sorry :P

  19. #19
    I dunno about you, but my crat is pretty busy dealing damage between calms, so I'd rather not spend ages casting contemplation if not needed.

    Lich × Finalizer × Dictator × Vanguard × Techno Arch-Wizard × Godfather × Eternalist × Saviour × Deity × Guru


    'People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they never use' - Kierkegaard

  20. #20
    One way to see where the aggro is going on calmed mob is to assist or look at them visuay, this way you can check where they got their aggro

    Im one of those crats who use rk calm. If the team is high dmg and kills mobs very fast I only use sl calm if theres 1-2 adds, if theres more I'll rk calm some of em just to keep any weaker prof safe from aggro taunt building. the dmg done (that is roO) isnt that much compared to spam a few contems... and if theres a pet team involved, that means other pets than mine, I ALWAYS use rk calm on all adds. pets tend to have their own life sometimes

    But I think the issue has become smaller with more uber weapons and armors which itself creates more taunt or indirect more taunt, so docs healing power is now competing with 1/1 weapons, before it was hard to get 1/1, now its daily routine to have it.

    and I think ppl who has played the crat prof before NW-SL-AI always rk calm. this could be due to the old days of pull-1-mob-into-room-keep-doc-safe-at-all-cost!!! doc down the team died, end of story. now days its not important, it still is but not as before. Now teams can "insta" kill high lvl mobs and get fast and nice xp, before we had to pull each mob into safe area, then aggro build on tank, then dmg, keep doc safe, check for adds, CLOSE DOOR!!! etc.

    If you have been through the old days with the old weaponry, armors etc. you always want to keep any aggro off doc, at all cost, many times I pulled aggro off doc if tank couldnt and died so that the tank could get aggro back. that way the team was still alive and the mish could get going, if the entire team died it often got: xxx left the team etc

    - O
    rerolling on rk-4

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •