Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[___________Stercoral]

Yes Cub I agree... but the problem I see is that for overequipping guys to have fun and challenge FC had to rise the difficulty. So now, that's my opinion, you cannot simply say "overequipping is not my problem, I do not have time to do that, I want to have fun even with 2 hours of game each week". If the game balance is affected by hardcore gamers then others (majority or minority I don't know) have to try to do the same overequipping, just to survive. This ask you (me) more game time, and depending of your irl character, more or less fun. If I don't like that, my only choice is to play the way it is, without whining or crying. It's exactly what I do. At least, it's what I want to do.
But with 5-10 hours each week (the time I have) is overequipping viable ? I don't think so. It takes more time. And it's my problem, yes, BUT...
But the point is that AO game-system (with green-yellow-red mobs and implants and buffs and...) drives to
1) overequipping (it was planned with implants) and it works well for a lot of people.
2) and require you to have the right power for your level. Green-yellow-red is only determined by your level. Not by your profession (I find that strange, by the way, a doctor is by definition less powerfull than an enforcer, no ?), your breed, your hit points...

In a classic system, you choose the monster you can handle. If you are the kind of player I am, you choose easy monsters (low xp but more than 1 xp), and sometimes harder. If you are at the top of the possibilities of your character, because you spent a lot of time for it, you will progress more, and struggle against harder mobs (because you have a very good weapon or a very good armor or a very good buff). Level is only an indication of power.

In AO that does not work ! A grey monster is, for me, dangerous. Well, I might be dumb or play like an a**hole, whatever, in AO I cannot enjoy killing an easy mob, because it gives me 1 xp !!!

I'm not against overequipping. I'm amazed too see how people can handle such complex combination of buff+implant+... and how much time and interaction it ask.

Maybe a solution is to had a category between green and grey mobs, in place of nerfing overequippers.

I hope you understand what I mean, and, in a way, why some players are unhappy.

[___________Goodpheel]

Originally posted by Cub
Doc against PVP. What your saying is exactly proving my point, along with the others that agree with what i say.

Your saying it your dam self, "if i wanted to WORK at this game"... thats exactly what we are trying to explain. If you "DID" put more hours into the game, and if you "DID" spend time calculating how to equip a higher level weapon,etc. Then "you" too could be equiped with a much higher level weapon.

Not lazy? yes you are, spend more time looking for buffs, spend more money into implants, buffs, clothing, etc. spend more time just sitting in front of nano nanny and thinking "hmm.. i need agility,- this intelligence is just killing me"

................

Basically, if you would of approached my thread nicer i would of with yours, but what im trying to say is. Just b/c u don't have enough time for the game, don't mean that everyone has to be penalyzed for it.

cub

Ah, your elegance here proves why it will be impossible for AO to fix the system within their current boundries. First off, everything you point out is about weapons. Hmmm, so I should choose one of the three professions that allow me to overequip a worthwhile weapon and forget the other stupid, unusable professions. Why there is the solution already!! AO should remove the other professions from the game as useless. That would mean that they would not have to fix the problems with the other professions, and then the hunter/killer types would not have to be bothered with these petty hinderences. Pick one of the "good" choices, spend the time to overequip them, then go forth and slay.

I do agree with you though that Nano Nanny is one of the best programs out there for designing implants. They have done an excellent job on it.

As to the tone of the reply, you might want to re-read your post. You are the one that decided anybody that has a problem with overequipping is a whiner or lazy. You don't seem to have read any of my previous posts. I am not even sure you have read that many of the posts on the thread.

But, here is something that might be an interesting suggestion. AO needs to setup a third diminsion. They need to make that one Non-PVP and allow people to move their character accounts over to the new diminsion. It would "solve" the problem of overequipping since most people don't care except when it comes to PVP. The people that want PVP stay on the current diminsions and if the population drops too much, they could consolidate Rubi-Ka 1 and Rubi-Ka 2 into one diminsion. They could even change the rules of Rubi-Ka 3 (want to bet on the name?) as they like and note the fact that rules on it are different if they wanted to. You can stay and play the game the way you want to and I can stay and play the game the way I want to. If they kept the rules the same on Rubi-Ka 3 except for non-PVP, then those that overequip for the challenge of seeing just how big of a gun they can use would also still find that challenge there as well. It might even be possible to play more than just a couple of professions then.

[______________Camper]

Well as for the overequipping, it doesn't bother me that others do it, because it hasn't affected me yet. But now that my char is evolving I'm sure it it will annoy me later when it's used against me since I don't do it. But my thoughts on how I think it should work are as follows:

I feel there should always be a way for someone 'who spends the time' to beef up his char so he can out perform someone else at his level and also some above his level. But hearing of equiping lvl 200 weapons on a lvl 100 char is a little too much in my book. I think there should be a 25% or so margin that would be the max lvl weapon or nano that you could use no matter how high you were buffed. Lvl 100 char could equip a lvl 125 weapon or nano when properly buffed or over buffed. This cap would also apply to armour and what ever else is needed. This would still enable a lvl 100 char to chalange a level 125 char who might only be equipped with lvl 125 items. Depending on each char either one could win the pvp against each other. Also for those who will be doing other things with their ip's may have a char higher than a lvl 125 that doesn't quite have the armour or is using a crappy weapon or nano because his ip is spent else where. I think keeping some type of range would make the game more enjoyable and realistic to play. As for the mobs' they are surely not tagged correctly once getting into the 50 lvl and higher. I think the actual way the mobs are set up are fine with thier hit points and damage, but they have 2 apparent problems. One is their aggro area could be reduced.(Imo all mobs should either attack you, run from you, taunt or talk to you if you get close enough. Even the lowest leet should run away if you are a lvl 50 and appear to be walking on him.)The other is their level either needs to be changed so instead of yellow they appear red to you, since they actually are life threatning to you, or there needs to be a different way to determine the red, yellow, green, grey other than one's lvl. This could only be done for mobs, for if it looked at how much damage you could deal and your armour class, then players would unequip everything to look green to someone and then equip and turn red.

Over all I feel that the solution needs to be thought out and many scenario's examined before something is implemented into the actual game.....remember you always have the test server and if something doesn't work it can always be rethought.

Of course many folks would not like my suggestion, imo because they would actually have to fight someone that might be able to fight back and to actually use a high lvl weapon or nano, that would mean they would have to be high lvl themselves. Wow what a concept.

Camper


As I once saw in a Calvin cartoon(i think).

"Why should other's benefit from my hard work".......as he's shoveling snow out from the front of him and placing it behind him.

[Breaku]

But, here is something that might be an interesting suggestion. AO needs to setup a third diminsion. They need to make that one Non-PVP and allow people to move their character accounts over to the new diminsion. It would "solve" the problem of overequipping since most people don't care except when it comes to PVP.

LOL you want your own dimension? heh can i get one too! A world of 25% and 0 % zones! lol... your halarious.

Hmmm, so I should choose one of the three professions that allow me to overequip a worthwhile weapon and forget the other stupid, unusable professions. Why there is the solution already!!

hate to burst your small n00b bubble but, *mostly* any profession can equip a worthwhile weapon. Even docs can equip high-end shotguns. with only one requirement to boost up, its not taht hard. I know a few docs level 90 using ql 180 vektors.

I think i've found out what the problem is. Your just another n00b that doesn't understand the game yet, so you try to destroy things for others b/c your "AGAIN LAZY" to learn it.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DOC against PVP

2. While the IP reset is nice, I would say not to allow it. If you do, I will use it since I have made a few (tons actually) bad decisions from time to time. The game as in real life has a learning curve. If you are unhappy, create a new character and don't make the same mistakes again. Make new mistakes instead....<snip>...but high level characters who do not want to spend all the time building up another character will be able to "fix" all the errors they ever made. Or in the case above, wipe out their old choices they made in order to use items then and spend the points in the ones they only need now that they are high enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Replied from scumbag
the purpose is to fix funcoms mistakes, not players mistakes.
since you didnt know about the unequip-on-zone mess above,
i'll assume you're also new enough not to know about the
endless nerfs and rulechanges that wiped out whole
character strategies and again lead to mass cancelations.
players just want the months they've invested in characters
that FC broke given back to them.

So stop being lazy, and learn to equip. Got lazy??

-p.s. stop replying to me, im sick of being on this thread, im sick of this topic, and im mostly just sick of your ignorance.

-cub

[____________Criseyde]

ok, i overequip my sniper rifle. always. i dont know of anyone who refuses to even use an expertise buff to put on a weapon if their skills are a bit low for it.

i will continue to play anarchy if you implement the decreasing effectiveness option; but only if a few conditions are met:
- make concealment more effective against monsters.
- make concealment effective against players.
- if i am concealed i dont want someone to see my name floating around over an empty space.
- i'm not sure what aimed shot used to be, but consider making it more effective (at least against monsters).
- rebalance the monster toughness to match the new effectiveness of weapons.

not too much to ask, is it?

i could be happy with this situation:
i buff up and equip a weapon. then the buffs run out. and what i end up with is a weapon that basically is the equalivant of my own level.

that would represent a situation where i bought this really good gun but i dont have the skill to maximize its effect, yet. that has a certain in-game logic to it.

now i HATE to admit it, but i agree that an over-equipped (and subsequently reduced) weapon should operate at a level just slightly below what a perfectly equipped weapon would. this would keep things fair for those rich eccentrics who buy a new weapon every time they level.

what i dont want to see is my gun popping off every time i let sniper's bliss run out.


a glaring problem with this whole thing is that nano-users cant over-equip their nano's. i suggest that any nano, which has a continuous line of improvements, should be allowed to be over-equipped under the same conditions that weapons are.

what i mean by continuous line is this:
NT's get a damage nano that is ql 10. then, later, they get the same damage nano that is ql 20, then 35, then they get one which is ql 50,etc. all these nano's may have different names but they are the same nano, the difference is the gradually increasing effectiveness.

so it should be simple to enable an over-equipped nano to operate at a reduced effectiveness. whatever the stats of the nano are that increase with ql, those are the stats that should be reduced in the over-equipping formula. direct damage nano's would lose some damage. heal nano's would lose some healing capability. and things like root nano's would lose duration.


now,i DON'T suggest that one-timebuffs be allowed to be over-equipped. like sniper's bliss, if i get my trader buddy to wrangle me up so that i can cast sniper's bliss, then i SHOULD need that wrangle again to cast it again tomorrow. ditto for the general buffs, ditto for the masteries,etc.

so with the above situation of over equipping of nano's NT's wouldn't need to keep buying their nano's every level to see an improvement, when their soldier friend has only to improve the skills for her over-equipped cannon to see an improvement.

thanks for listening.

[________________khem]

i havent taken the time to ready every reply to this post so i am not replying to anyones post except to respond to the ideas gaute presented.
way cool. i especially like how you have considered some of the effects of implementing the rules and how you will change the game to accord with characters having less power and such.
i especially like the idea of ip reapplication and that implants will not be affected.
as for weapons i can equip mine now anyway lacking trader skill steals. i use snipers bliss and rifle expertise all the time anyway. i would like to be able to use the trader skills so i can equip a high level weapon if i like it. i dont mind it being impaired because i dont meet the req lacking the trader steals. i would just used the program because i found a weapon i liked and wouldnt be able to equip it otherwise.
mentioning weapons, i think that when preparing the other changes you should do a review of all weapons and consider making some changes because i know some agent and adventurer feel ripped off.

[__________CorwynRose]

hi there,
i've been playing now for only about 2 months, and have tried a few char types now.

i nderstand that overequipping is a part of the game....as it is in real life. these games, for balance, are designed to be as realistic as possible, with a few assumed things (future date/planet etc) making it different, and more exciting.

ever notice that when you are in an org in this game, more help is available? when soloing, it was hard to get that extra few points to wear an item of armour or weapon.....cost a fair amount too. while after i had a guilded character, that became easier, as i just asked if someone could help me out.....as they asked me on occasion. cheaper, and easier.

those that go through the process of earning the $ to do it the hard way, well, they earned it just as much as i did.

that said however, i think that one thing could address these problems, by making something more "realistic"...and make it follow the story line better as well. the reclaim process.

when i die, i am, according to history, reborn into my clone at the exact moment of death....my essence transferred. my old body is dead....and the reclaim terminal actually has nano assistance to get my possessions back, and after time, i am able to take them for myself.....but why, if all that is true, do i have all my armour and weapons and implants STILL ON ME? my stuff should be back at my corpse, to be retrieved, shouldn't it?

if weapons, implants and armour had to be re-equipped after death, well, i think that this would follow the original intent somewhat closer. Those that have friends would be able to wear their stuff again in fairly short order...and those that spent hundreds of thousands on buffs....would simply have to do it again. the path of the loner is harder, after all. this would give the diehards the option to grossly overequip (i have seen a q90 rifle on a lev 17 char...he refused to level, for fear of losing his awesome pvp ratio), but attach some element of risk to it.

it would also have the added bonus of being a little less silly - if the items i am wearing and holding are "cloned" what happened to the originals?

as for the decreased potential of an item, based on stats, i think this would work, as long as we remember this - some people may have been geniuses with the spitball gun (rifle, q10), but wouldn't have a clue how to use that EN FAL (rifle, q100)...and therefore are better with the spitballs...and do more damage with what they actually have the skills to use. (My 50 year old father can use the remote for his tv, but cannot figure out my laptop.....both computers, one MUCH higher quality)
thus - a q80 rifle may, in effect, do more damage than a q150 rifle....because the person using them has NO clue how to use the higher quality, more POTENTIALLY devastating weapon.

as for the ip reset, i think it could be an asset, as long as it is a one time thing (if only to fix nerfed skills, advs with multiranged/energy weapon stats, etc)

sorry for going on so long, but i have thought about this a fair amount.....and i am always looking for the least complex solution. This won't solve all the problems, i am sure, but may be something to think about.....(sure, that guy with the mega rifle is WAY hard to take down....but if you ever did, or ganged up on him.....you'd RUIN his day...heh)

CorwynRose

[Slyyk]

Here is a simple, easy way to curb massive overequipping without completely nerfing it. Make helpful nanos cast by players on other players subject to some restrictions. In other words, if the nano cast is more than 10 levels higher than the player it's used on there is no effect. I know that sometimes when I try to use first aid kits on someone I see that is dying I get the message 'player is not in range'. I assume that it means the player is not within a close enough level range for me to heal him that way. Although sometimes this happens when I try to help a teammate during battle (possibly due to a temporary bug) I still see this as a viable option. This way overequipping is still possible with implants and appropriate buffs, but those +100 wrangles on a level 50 character would have no effect.

[_________________Mor]

All good except.... NO IP RESET!!!

Everyone being an exact copy of each other would suck bad. Alot of people have made many characters till they got their character right. This is would unfair to them for taking the time to re-roll.

Some people even got skills they knew would help them mostly in the lower levels, rather then not getting them and suffering it out but ending up better without it at higher levels. See my point?

It's like a meta using a weapon for awhile at the lower levels, then giving it up when he becomes no longer usefull with it at the higher levels. An IP re-set would allow that player to dump all the skills he no longer needs at his level (to put on skills he can find useful at his level), and making everyone a copy-cat to boot.

[_____________biscuit]

I keep reading posts that say things along the lines of "Well the idea of not being able to overequip is great, but reducing the ac and hp of npc's in mission would be nice at the same time" to this i would like to give a big EH? I for one couldnt care less about overequipping although i do have an overequipped pistol on me engineer (nothing 2 or 3 lvls couldnt fix, i am working towards it right now) but everything else i use is reachable by those expertise and bosst buffs u can buy in a general nano store, im just saying that wether you implement these changes or not the fact still stands that the npc's in these missions are so damn hard i think im goin to have a low lvl character in every proffession because as soon as i get to a certain lvl gettin me money from missions will be impossible. Oh yeah, u eally anoyed me funcom, the shop of fortune? "we need a permit for rubi-ka"? i had a lvl 34 character when i first saw a shop of fortune i lvled as fast as i could to find out it was exactly like the team mission terminals. phooey, and during all these power leveling i forgot to increase me body development and me nano pool, me gettin killed lots, team in a solo mission, npcs are believable solo a mission and a A-500 soldier the same colour as all the rest you killed and managed to keep 1/4 of your health, this one smashes your bot to pieces and ripps your head off before you can run away. boy are the pet proffessions easy, not only do we pay the same extorsionate amount for armour(thank god you MAY fix this) at about the mid 30s we have to pay an increasing amount arount 50k per level to get a new bot that wont die in 2 seconds in a mission (if the damn things dont run off somewhere else leaving you to die) <---happens so often i may avoid pet proffessions completely cos the pathing is so stupid, bot gets stuck on every door and runs into adjacent rooms in a corridor for no apparent reason, this would all be sorted with a summon command, what u guys up to? im dead by the time i terminate my stuck pet and use a new one, and buff it with an ac bonus so it lives. and even then when ive done that tha bot STILL runs off into another room. oh hum my easy proffession, what a stroll in the park it is, cos me gun does next to nothing, me bot is all i got, im just another target








P.S. Id go away if you put a biccy in the shops

[_____________stergir]

The effectiveness of an item being reduced to handle overequiping is a good idea but I do however have a problem with one thing. Why, make "effectiveness reduction brackets"? I would think it would be a better idea to reduce the items effectiveness with something like this:

Char's Skill = 100
Item Requirement = 100
Effectiveness = Char's Skill / Item Requirement

So let's go through some scenarios (all hypothetical)

Vektor (100 max damage) with a 200 shotgun requirement on a trader with 150 shotgun:

Char's Skill = 150
Item Requirement = 200
Effectiveness = 75%

Now the vektor is only doing 75 max (75% of 100 damage)damage. This would make more sense in my opinion.

[speardancer2]

I"m all for this adjustment that will get rid of the over-equiping, because of all the affects it has on the game. But one thing MUST be done.... the promise to lower the difficulty of the mobs MUST be done, and MUST be done correctly.

I am a casual player, and as such, depsite playing the game since the first week after launch, my main char is only lvl 54. Could also have to do with the fact I'm STILL a pistol weilding advent, but I digress......

MOBs have had their HP's and abilities raised in order to compensate for all the serious over-equiping going on in game. At lvl 54, I find myself having problems in missions where I don't even see a yellow con, everything is green or grey. I have my buffs, and the buffs from the Doc I team with.

And for those of you who say "Well, if they didn't want us to over-equip, why did they give us wrangles"..... all those buffs were supposed to simply help you fight better. The "vision" was that a trader would do a deprive on the creatures you fight, and then "wrangle" the skills out to his team, increaseing their efficiency.

There will, however, always be some over-equiping in the game. The only difference now, is that you'll accualy have to maintain the buffs and implants that allow you to over-equip, rather than doing it once, and gaining the benifit of equipment way above your skills.

Those who are able to take the time and over-equip a character WITHIN THE RULES will still be able to level faster, and take on higher level creatures than the casual player who doesn't. But over-equiping has gone way beyond it's intended capabilites, and the attempts at adjusting for them have made the game difficult to impossible for those casual players (whom, I might add, make up a much larger bulk of the customer base than the power gamers who do this over-twinking)

And to the IP reset..... definetely a good thing. Those who are impaitent have already done it, it's called "creating a new character".... People are claiming there will be a rush of identical little players running around with the same exact thing if this happens, that it will be a bad thing....

There will not, this would of happened already if it was going to. People would just create a new char, who fit whatever design they wanted.

With a change this deep, you either need an IP reset for people who may need to compensate for the new changes, or a character wipe to reset everyone to a level spot. Personly, I like the IP reset.

My .02 creds, take it for what it's worth in this 30 page (probably more by the time I finish) rant and rave-fest

[____________Ejeckted]

The problem with the anti-overequiping 'solutions' that
the anti-overequiping players suggest is that they just
dont seem to understand what it is players find FUN
about 'overequiping'.

If I can, with one single self-buff or just one wrangle
overequip to the 'cap' then there is absoultly no
motivation to do any math at all .. no reason to
have to call on 2 or 3 friends with different buffs ..
no reason to have to make multiple implants..
no reason for all these items with modifiers to exist..

you get one wrangle and ..BAM.. you're done.

that is lazy gameplay that completely dumbs down AO
for the players who love using every available option
to optimize themselves .. AO gets a whole lot simpler/stupider.

The original soltuion in the first article (with the graph)
would actually punish palyers who were 'too-good'
at overequiping by making a massively overequiped weapon
degrade in performance enough to make it sub-par to a
weapon you can just take on and off with no strategy at all.

That's a problem that will cost FC every player who enjoys
the number-crunching style of gameplay that is so great in AO.

caps = character strength based only on level = boring


the ATK rating solution is still the only solution I've heard
which would be acceptable to players like me who feel
missions and mutant-bashing is repetative and is not
be the main gameplay element of AO.

make ATK rating matter more than anything.
make ATK rating 80% of the damage calculation.
make QL of the weapon only contribute a small part of the equation.

the calculation now could easily be tweaked,
and while it may mean the HP of players/mobs also
needs to be adjusted, FC have aknowledged that
would be necessary with any soultion.

ATK rating is ONLY based on a players base skills
+ implants he is currently wearing + active buffs he
has running in his NCU right now.

This way, all methods of optimization are still worthwhile,
but a level80 player with a level200 gun is only going to
do slightly more damage than a level80 player with a QL80 gun ..
.. but it still scales according to optimization!

so a level80 player with current skills for a QL100 gun
equiped with a QL140 gun is going to do slightly more
damage than with the QL100, but a QL200 would still
be even better if he can figure out how to get it on.

I dont care about how 'uber' this makes them..
nothing should make anyone 'uber'. . that's the definition imbalance.

Im quite happy if that level80 player with a QL100 gun
does an average '200' damage per normal hit,
while the same level80 with a QL140 gun would do
an average '210' damage per hit, and then maybe with
a QL200 he can do '218' per hit ..

that's fine. that's great. he can still get himself
the most optimized he can figure out how to be,
but it doesnt imablance the game, and yet there
is still some slight reward for all the effort ..

that's all us number-crunchers want.
some small reward (and definately not a punishment)
for our time and effort.

we learned the rules, we learned every other professions buffs,
we found the players to cast them, we spent all the money on
many different implant sets just for equiping, we went out and
got that special item with the (eg)+10 melee energy modifier..

if you think overequiping is nothing but "wrangle buff me PLZ!!"
you're wrong.

-name a non-general buff that adds to flingshot?
-name a non-general buff that adds to sneakattack?
-name a non-general/non-doctor buff that adds treatment?
-how many different items can you wear at the same time
that add to piercing skill?
-name any buff that can raise shotgun skill besides trader
and general nanos.
-name 3 ways to increase brawl skill without general buffs or implants.
-name at least 3 weapons that can help you equip better armor?

if you cant answer all of these,
you dont know the rules well enough to be calling for any nerfs.

'overequiping' is just smart committed gameplay and should
have a payoff . . . not in 'uberness', but in optimization.

[____________Ejeckted]

here is the current formula for how damage is determined:
(thanks senatorjesse)

(1 + (ATK / 400)) * (Damage + Crit if any)
= damage total +added damage modifiers [like rings]
-minus armor = damage dealt.


so lets use a common weapon in an example:

----------------------------
QL 200 Premium Stigma Rifle

Equip time 2 s
Attack time 1 s
Recharge time 2.5 s
Range 34 m
Clip 125
Damage 12-326 (101)
Defense skills
dodge ranged 100%

Attack skills
rifle 100%

Requirements rifle 859
aimed shot 430
----------------------------


now, for a high level Agent with 1200 rifle skill
hitting for max damage with no crit or +damage-mods
vs a player with QL200 armor will get:

(1 + (1200 / 400 = 3)) * (326 + 0)
= 1304 -(3500AC=-350) = 954 damage dealt.


for a lower level Agent with rifle skill of only 600
overequiped with this QL200 stigma hitting for max,
no crit, hitting against QL200 armor:

(1 + (600 / 400 = 1.5)) * (326 + 0)
= 815 -(3500AC=-350) = 465 damage dealt.

but to be fair, that agent is more likely to be
shooting players with QL100ish armor.

(1 + (600 / 400 = 1.5)) * (326 + 0)
= 815 -(2000AC=-200) = 615 damage dealt.


now let's look at a gun that fits this agents skills:
(not 'overequiped' at all)

----------------------------
QL141 Fine-Tuned Stigma Rifle

Equip time 2 s
Attack time 1 s
Recharge time 2.5 s
Range 34 m
Clip 125
Damage 9-235 (74)
Defense skills dodge ranged 100

Attack skills rifle 100

Requirements rifle 606
aimed shot 304
----------------------------


do the math again with these numbers:
(max damage, no crit, vs QL100ish armor)

(1 + (600 / 400 = 1.5)) * (235 + 0)
= 588 -(2000AC=-200) = 388 damage dealt.


So with the current formula,
the 600skill agent does
615 max normal damage with a QL200 gun
388 max damage with a QL141 gun

now we've got the new PvP rules too,
so we have to cut those in half.

308 max with QL200
194 max with QL141


I hope these examples show exactly how much
skill and ATK rating do matter in AO already.
The math is all right there so please review it.
Is overequiping drastically imbalancing enough
to require a nerf? .. well.. that's debatable.
I am going through the trouble of doing all this
math and posting this long message to encourage
Funcom to consider adjusting their damage formula
before they start throwing in arbitrary caps.

[_______________Leroy]

The way I see it that the people complaining are mad because they dont put enough time into the game to make the credits and learn the buffs to equip the highest weapon possible in the game. OR they are purests and feel that over-equiping somehow ruins the game play and want to force that view on everyone else because they get there butts kicked in PvP and 25% zones.

Its part of the game dynamics. There is nothing wrong with it. PvP is about the most powerful player. You would not complain that your stock honda civic cant compete with a formula one car. They are 2 very differant worlds. Equiping the highest weapon possible is not OVER equiping, it is working within the game dynamics to make the most powerful character possible. If you dont believe in that idea then dont do it. Start a guild of self equiped characters and PvP yourself and hunt together. But dont get ticked off because you dont hit as hard. If anyone has taken to time to equip something many lvls above themselves will tell you, it is alot of work and alot of credits. Sometimes it can take days to bring it all together. This process has created an economy and social structure that is very big in the game and changing that will hurt the game in many ways. Take a moment to think about this. Removing the "Over Equiping" will take away the individual design of you character. Where is the fun in that. I dont want my enforcer to have the same strength and the next guy. Its fun to share what beam you equiped at what lvl and the process and what you paid to get it done. You might as well just hand out Elite in the backyards as well. That is no easier to come by than a +132 wrangle, Riot Control, on and on and on. The character development balance of the game is great. It offers so much diversity. I dont mean to sound angry or otherwise. I do agree that there needs to be a volunteer ip reset. Funcom has made many changes in the game that have flushed hours and hours of game play ip's down the toilet. This would give everyone who made mistakes to correct them. I feel its only fair. After all there is so little info avalible to help you decide what to do early on that you waste so much.

Disclaimer: This is all my opinion and I reserver the right to that opinion. I also reserve the right to be completly wrong at anytime and still maintain the right to my opinion.

"Remember it's only a game"

[____________Sabbtail]

ppl i just would like to know when we will have a ip reset?

a lot of people are speculating like me but we don t realy know if it will happens and if it will be soon...

some ppl made mistakes putting skills, they didn´t know when they started playing what was the best for them, like me who made an adventurer with pistols, and it is getting really boring...

please i know u have a lot of work to do but please try to make an ip reset realy soon...

Tnks for let us play the best game on earth :P

[__________CorwynRose]

guys, twinks and non-twinks alike, we ALL have to face reality here....

now, there are many runours circulating lately, as to what will be happening. not IF...but WHAT.

even FC wants imput on WHAT to do...not IF they should.

overequipping (i say a lev 35 in 2ho yesterday....wearing a 187 Lovemaker....come on, that is ridiculous) WILL be limited in the future. Deal with it.

now, that being said, why not make constructive imput on what to change? i understand the previous point, that twinks like to max the stats...and it DOES take skill to do that. i can name many, but not all of those nanos he mentioned. everyone likes to squeeze those last few points out of a character, to equip the cutting EDGE of what is possible...and then share the stories of how they did it, and how hard it was, how many myriad steps etc...everyone does that to some extent.

the problem is that overequipping WILL be limited...look at it financially - the hardcore gamer, the ones that have hours upon hours to dedicate to the game, heck, even to the forums, are NOT the majority of the money coming into FC. they are a SMALL, if vocal minority. the casual gamer that playes for 1-2 hours a day, maybe fopr a total of 8 hours a week....THEY are the money makers. They pay the same fees. they use less bandwidth. and they make less demands on the programming staff.

do the math.

so there will be some kind of limit to overequipping. they have to, in order to keep those that pay the bills. it is fact, not an option.

think of a compromise people. If you don't like my idea, fine. but we have to COMPROMISE. because otherwise, FC will get fed up of conflicting opinions and whining, and just please the majority. would you like it if they imposed a 25 level cap on overequipping? neither would i...i can self buff higher than that. but it would please the VAST majority of their money base. and as a company who makes you sign an agreement EVERY TIME YOU LOG IN that says you use it "as is" (item 14 of uela), they very well might do that. lose 5% of hardcore active players, to keep those that pay the same amount, (and more money in total) and demand less.

think about it. we can't ALL get what we want. so think constructively.....or watch as the easy nerf stick is once more wielded with exasperated might.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by CorwynRose
FC will get fed up of conflicting opinions and whining, and just please the majority. would you like it if they imposed a 25 level cap on overequipping? neither would i...i can self buff higher than that. but it would please the VAST majority of their money base. and as a company who makes you sign an agreement EVERY TIME YOU LOG IN that says you use it "as is" (item 14 of uela), they very well might do that. lose 5% of hardcore active players, to keep those that pay the same amount, (and more money in total) and demand less.

I really have to disagree with this point.
I would say the VAST majority of players enjoy the game rules
exactly as they stand. I've never heard anyone whine about
'overequiping' ingame, only brag excitedly about what they
managed to accomplish at what level etc.. or that they are
manageing to make some really wierd breed/profession/weapon
combo work with a little math and borrowed buffs.
The whining on these boards are mostly a small vocal minority
of players (pay attention, it's the same posters over and over
again.. starting multiple threads) more used to old-generation
rpgs and/or FPS games where they can just run around
blasting eachother non-stop without having to stop and do
some math. And that style of play is fine in those games,
but it's not AO.

AO is new and different and more challenging and gives
players far more flexible options in character development
and optimization, and that's why players stick around thru
all the bugs and tedious lack of other content . .
'Overequiping' is AOs content / primary gameplay strategy.

There is nothing wrong with tweaking the calculations for balance,
but if FC dumb down the game with caps that castrate the ability
of one player to ever be better than the next guy then the game
just becomes a pure leveling treadmil with character strength
based entirely on level, and that is boring and exactly why most
players canceled their accounts with other games to come here.
(to a more intelligent second-generation mmorpg).

If you put a 25% max or whatever arbitrary number
you want to pick, then every single player will easily hit that
cap and it's no different than if the cap was 0% tolerance.
Every player becomes mediocre and AO becomes mediocre.

wish i could remember the posters name who said
"Stop trying to turn a game of chess into a game of checkers!"

play with the damage calculation, make ATK rating matter more,
but dont remove the strategy from the game.

[_____________Nalissa]

Originally posted by Julia Pomka
OK i like an idea of reducing daage output if skills are low.

But how about us traders yuo see traders isnt very strong. Cant make a lot of money and the only way to survive is Buffing Skillw Wrangler.

So ok i buf him Skill Wrangler Premium he is generous guy gave me one million for that. But wrangler wears out in 3 minuties....

So according to it his gun will reduce in stats. So there no need in spending bunch of money on wrangler trying to equip a high lvl weapon if the weapon in 3 minuties will be equalent to what he naturaly can use.


I think Skill wrangler should be increasesed in duration lets say 5 hours . So person who gets wrangler will have some time to enjoy the weapon.

Join the club of normally broke players.

I'm sorry, making 300k to 1 mil for 10 seconds of work is a little ridiculous

[Giganti]

Touchy subject here, for many reasons.

I do agree that it'd be nice to see people twink less, honestly. I'm a super twink myself, or I like to think so, getting into QL 200 weps at around 50-60th level (no, no exploits are used, just a lot of number crunching). As for not using a weapon as normal though, I don't think this is ideal solution.

First of all, I think only a REDUCTION in the power of the weapon in question (or armor, or pet... twinking is fairly spread out). For instance, if you twink into a 200 hammer and only have base-skill for a 100 hammer, you might get say... the equivalent of a 120-130 hammer. The advantage here is that the higher you twink, the larger the benefit still. This makes wranglers and "twink spells" useful still, while not making them gamebreaking.

However, duration buffs should always affect as normal. If you're say... a soldier, and you keep up a AR Mastery (+50) on you at all times, your damage should reflect that, and the weapon should be thus nerfed less.

The real problem is that this "nerf" of ubertwinking must apply to all things, or it becomes fairly unbalanced. Many engineers/crats/MPs will twink up to cast an uber pet to hunt with, many people twink into armor, and many people twink in to disgustingly high weapons.

Basically, I think if you want to control it, put in a skill check. No matter WHAT pet/weapon/armor/etc is being used, it will be nerfed should the skill required fall below the amounts needed to cast/equip it. The formula for nerfing might be something like ((MaxEquipNaturally) + (EquippedQL)) * .4 or so. Thus, a QL 200 hammer in the hands of a person who normally maxes at 100 would act as a QL 120 hammer instead. As he leveled, the hammer would improve, and he could stay IN the 200 hammer from there til 200 if he wished, so he would never have to retwink if he didn't want to. This makes twinking still useful (you get the weapon you want in, and do slightly more damage than you would otherwise, and never have to re-equip) but not overpowering.