Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Dd
I repeat one last time, over-equipping is NOT the problem, the problem is that not all profession and not all breed can do it AND that you need it to be able to solo a mission of your lvl.

well..
lets say casters cannot over equip *as much*
as some (not all) weapon classes.

casters get pillows, nelebs robe, and +nanoskill guns
in addition to thier implants

weaponusers only really get buffs in addition to implants

nevermind that a nano-nuke of the same QL as a weapon
is usually much more powerful. (see my post above)

the only big problem i have with overequiping
nanomages vs atrox etc is that there are no
int/psy buffs for better armor .. instead of
giving us one to level the playing field they
go and introduce 'shades of lucibration' (sp?)
which are +30 int/psy .. almost as good as
essence + iron circe for str/stam users ..
but they are rediculously rare and drop from
some uber mob in some secret place noone
will reveal bc they want to farm em for 30mil a pop.

agreed on the last point tho,
let any level100 player with a level100 gun have a 50/50
chance of soloing a yellow mob; that is supposed to be
the standard measure .. as indicated by the PoD meter.

the players who put more time into better learning
the rules/buffs/items of the game should have a better
chance. sure, they might (*gasp*) be able to solo a red
now and then but so be it.. let the powerlevelers powerlevel
and base the leveling curve / mob strength on the average
casual player.

[Neoncoyote]

Originally posted by Shen
First up.


That has to be a joke...that's a joke right? You're saying that this change is bad because...then you'd have to actually work for your money? boo woo.

/me head explodes

Shen out.

Oh and by the way...if there are any other French people thinking about leaving...Good bye.

Are you old enough to be playing or do you just have a tiny world view?

The point is SOME of us like to Roleplay. It's obvious you are a hack and slasher and that's fine for you.

I on the other hand liked selling services and roleplaying a Trader... IE TRADING of skills. And I earn my money by spending hours wrangling and building up clients.

So if you dont have the neurons to understand it that's fine but try not to be a major wank about it either.

=P

-Koyote

[Neoncoyote]

>> This bit is for Shen who couldnt grasp the concept of me Supporting the changes even though I questioned the impact to my enjoyment of roleplaying a trader as it was ment to be. Incase you didnt figure it out from my original post Shen I SUPPORT the change <<

Here is a new thought.
For one the classes were never designed to be =. So Nano classes shouldnt be as strong as weapon classes with weapons.
I play a Crat, A Trader (my Main), A Meta, An Engineer, A Soldier,. And I have played all the other classes for a while as well.

Not once did I have any real complaints with any class till the nerfing started. All this Balancing is making it so all classes are combat classes. That bit makes me sad. But hay it's happening no matter what I say.

On the issue of lowering damage based on skill. I like the idea (though I still worry about it turning the trader into another battle only class. It's the last of the good RPG classes IMHO) But I also think Armor should be so affected. Not only that but A weapon takes real skill. So even a skilled user with a crummy weapon would still outshoot a crymmy shooter with a crummy weapon. What I am getting at is that weapon damage should be raised if your skill is greater than the weapon. This would reflect the users real skill. Now I am not saying that a QL level 5 gun should outdamage a ql 100 gun just because the user has greater skill but maybe cap it at a +20% or what ever works out in the real game Mechanics.

Just another thought.
-Koyote

[Neoncoyote]

Another thought might be if you are over skilled for a weapon that instead of increasing damage above the max that it might lower the reflection or shieldinfg of the target by a percentage.

Just yet another thought.
-Koyote

Originally posted by Koyote
>>

On the issue of lowering damage based on skill. I like the idea (though I still worry about it turning the trader into another battle only class. It's the last of the good RPG classes IMHO) But I also think Armor should be so affected. Not only that but A weapon takes real skill. So even a skilled user with a crummy weapon would still outshoot a crymmy shooter with a crummy weapon. What I am getting at is that weapon damage should be raised if your skill is greater than the weapon. This would reflect the users real skill. Now I am not saying that a QL level 5 gun should outdamage a ql 100 gun just because the user has greater skill but maybe cap it at a +20% or what ever works out in the real game Mechanics.

Just another thought.
-Koyote

[________________Shen]

Don't mask it. I read your post.

You don't need to wrangle to roleplay a trader. You're beef was that you'd lose money.

I picked a Trader for cash generation and an alt to the stagnent Missions.

That's what you said. How did I misinterpret that? do tell.

[________________Shen]

Originally posted by Koyote
>> This bit is for Shen who couldnt grasp the concept of me Supporting the changes even though I questioned the impact to my enjoyment of roleplaying a trader as it was ment to be. Incase you didnt figure it out from my original post Shen I SUPPORT the change <<


-Koyote

Original post. I guess you don't even know what you wrote.

I have to agree. I picked a Trader for cash generation and an alt to the stagnent Missions. Focusing more in RPG and Income then mindless killing. When the Comp Lit buff became self only I lost 50% of my income so now most income and RPG fun comes in the form of wrangling. I have no problem with the concept of changing damage based on skill or even lowering armor functionality based on the same thing.

I do however think that The duration of a wrangle will need to be increased but not the effect to the trader. However that is the rub. It's easy to say we will make the effect last for 1 hour and the effect to the trader 5 mins but does that conflict to much with the concept of Trading?

To me Traders are fun. Not only are they a sort of Tekno Vampire but they are fun for RPG in towns.

Please be careful of the impact on us traders when you make the changes.

-Koyote

You never actually said you were for or against the change. All you said was that you'd lose money. You want wrangles to have a longer duration so you can continue to use them to make money. That's what you said. I'm not making this up.

"if you dont have the neurons to understand it that's fine".

[___________killahsin]

"I met this character in-game...he is close to level 100, and has no idea about anything.

Well, killah...

Certain professions? Even your own prof, ma, can be over equipped...and EVERY prof can be. You don't know how to, granted, but others do. "



LoL you met me in game and i have no idea about anything? Please explain to me how a ma can overequip sense/agil armor? Or how a nt can over equip Psy/int armor to the levels of wranglers? I have no idea about anything? Lets see I have this strange idea that it can't be done unless they go str/sta.... Am i wrong here? No i'm not... Oh ma weapons can be over equiped? lol.....you have to be kidding me since ma's have to take their weapons off before every buff. Before every zone. Hrm...every profession can overequip? Please tell me why when a NT tries to cast his 'overequiped' nano after the buff runs out it says not enough XXX in skill XXX? Seems to me your the person who doesn't know much.

let me guess gold your the agent who was screaming that agents were the most gimped characters in game. LoL, that was the funniest **** I have heard in forever.

I don't play my charcter good, but I am one of 2 get that right. Two whole Nanomage ma's that survied to get over 100. Yep I must really not know anything about an MA.

[____________Ejeckted]

i wasnt the one quoted or asked but ..

"Please explain to me how a ma can overequip sense/agil armor? Or how a nt can over equip Psy/int armor to the levels of wranglers? "

MAs can overequip sense/agil armor by getting
sense and agility buffs from agents.
(called 'feline grace' and 'enhanced senses')

They can also create a whole set of agility and sense
implants just for equiping armor, then take out those
implants and put in a new set for combat.

also: wrangles do not affect body-stats
just primary weapon (not including 'specials')
and nanoskills. so they dont help with armor.

but yes, besides the implant switching, it is harder
for intel/psy armor users to overequip armor.
there are +30 int/psy sunglasses in game but they
are rare and everyone is being secretive about where
to get them. ( bad way to balance FC )

MA 'weapons' (talking about fists only otherwise there's
no argument) cannot be overequiped but that's the price
you pay for never having to buy a weapon. MA fists + brawl
+ special attacks are also quite powerful ..
there is a problem vs AC as with all fast weapons (including fists),
but that's a game-mechanics issue.. not an overequiping issue.

[Neoncoyote]

Actually if you read the first paragraph under your comment of me not knowing what i wrote( you quoted me) it says I have no problem with the concept of the weapon damage reduction it also mentions about RPG and and Selling my skills as an alternative to the boring missions and PVP. Nothing I wrote suggests any thing other than support but to also consider the impact to the Trader class.

Perhaps you were just in a mood and only caught a limited bit of the message?

I enjoy making a living the way Traders were MEANT to make a living. And if I want to make my Money the way the Trader was designed (and they WERE designed to make money Trading) There is nothing wrong with it.

I picked a trader for that reason. To build up a Client list, and make money like a real business.
** Comp lit became self only because it was easier for funcom to nerf that than fix the bug that let you zone and swap belts. And that was also tied to getting larger buffs for over equiping.

Nerfing yet another trader skill is not a solution it's a problem for those of us that want more than hack and slash. I have played every class to at least level 20 or so. Building a client list and selling wrangles and keeping clients happy is not an easy task... But it is fun. In fact it turned out to be the most fun I have had with this game.

I could care less about PVP and untill they adress the Mission issue(the fact they are boring and way to repetative). Selling my Skills is great fun.

I can make more money per hour doing missions, But it is not nearly as fun. I know a lot of other traders that enjoy this aspect as well.

I like the idea of needing the skill to use a weapon. I support it fully, But they must also take into account that slowly they are making the Trader yet another Combat class. I did not pick a trader for the ability to stand toe to toe with a Soldier. I think I should get my butt kicked in PVP and only be able to solo greens but I should excell at selling my skills.

=)
-Koyote

Originally posted by Shen
[B]Don't mask it. I read your post.

You don't need to wrangle to roleplay a trader. You're beef was that you'd lose money.



That's what you said. How did I misinterpret that? do tell.

[__________________Dd]

Scumbug

- You can't dual a "nanogun" with a pillow, and I don't think someone will put all his IP in Pistol/Flingshot... up to 350 just because he found a gun that add +15 in MC.
- Nelebs Robe is hard to get if you can't find a good team
- Shades of lubrication, well i don't think we should even talk about them.
So the only way to over-equip is with Implant.

Wel..

See ya

Dd NT 97

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Ashuras


THere is a problem with point (A).

WHat happens to those professions that don't have to overequip to survive right now ?

Wouldn't that make the mobs too weak ? And make those professions UBER ?

Does that mean we'll have to tone down the damage dealing potential of these professions ?

What profession does not have to overequip to survive now? Cause you say that there is professions out there taht survives without overequipping, who is that?

Maybe trader, im not sure, but they rock, best dmg in the game.
Maybe some pet profs, im not sure here either, but some are able to solo 60-70% missions.

Anyway, we will have to let this nerf go through first, and then if some profs gets overpowered as a result of this, then we must balance them after.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Dd
Scumbug

- You can't dual a "nanogun" with a pillow, and I don't think someone will put all his IP in Pistol/Flingshot... up to 350 just because he found a gun that add +15 in MC.
- Nelebs Robe is hard to get if you can't find a good team
- Shades of lubrication, well i don't think we should even talk about them.
So the only way to over-equip is with Implant.

Wel..

See ya

Dd NT 97

(looks at your sig)

um.. at level 97 nelebs robe is easier to get than
any 50% mission reward (dungeon designed for level30-40s).


and look at these guns for different professions

http://ao.hackersquest.org/show.php3...nc.+T70&item=1

different QLs have different stat modifiers,
they can be duelwielded as well,
and require fewer stats than pillows.
(and do more damage.. not uber,
at least mildy helpful and a lot less silly looking)

there are other guns with similar stat modifiers
but this is a nice 'line' of weapons for example.

you can do your own searching for others.

what's ironic is that even with the 'nerf' to overequiping,
casters will still be able to get the exact same benefits
from overequiping these types of weapons by making an
implant set just for the gun, getting other professions buffs,
and overequiping the gun just like an agent or someone
used to do (avoiding spending much IP) and then once all
the buffs expire and you remove the implants, put back your
normal ones, and you will still get the full benefits from the MODIFERS on the gun! and you dont care about the negative
hit to damage because damage from the gun is irrelevant
a quick burst or whatever is just a nice bonus.



"Shades of lubrication, well i don't think we should even talk about them."

i want to talk about them.
i want someone to tell me where to get them.
i will then create a macro with all the info about
where and how to get them and then hit the
shop channel with it every time i see someone
trying to sell the things for 30-50 million credits;
because i hate the greedy selfish farming bastards.


you have options.
choose to ignore them if you like.
but they are there.
and they will still be there even after
overequiping thru buffs is 'nerfed'.

[_____________TalinUK]

I twink, I actually enjoy the work of making a good twink, maxing the stats, getting the right buffs, moving impants about to get armor on. I spent hours calculating, getting high lvl buffs, wrangles etc to wear the gear I have.

The difference is I could remove everything and then (with lots of effort) wear it all again.

Why should I be condemned for doing what every other player can do within the game. I PVP so I twink to pvp, if I win I get abuse - why ? - I can do no more than any other player.

Twinking actually adds to the overall gaming experience, many high lvl players made mistakes and have now created low lvl twinks - good for them.

I totally disagree with bug expolits, I have never ever used any of em to wear my gear. I still get killed to people with QL 125 implants at lvl 30, but thats the game.

So my question is - Why change anything, u dont need for wpns to be the same lvl as the character, dont need to change how hard mobs hit or how many hp they are, just simply twink ur character as well....

Simple solution ..?
[/quote]

[____________Ejeckted]

I agree with Talin,
even tho im not much into PvP (yet).

doing the research .. doing the math ..
getting the buffs .. using nano-nanny to
develop several implant sets for different things ..
finding the obscure items with interesting stat modifiers ..

that's my favorite part of the game .. and why im so addicted.

but unfortunately we are in the minority .
(on these boards at least)

seems most people are too lazy
and would rather PvP in AO be more like Quake,
where it's all just a matter of who hits the buttons first
instead of who took the time to optimize their characters.

i dont understand why people want to dumb down the game
but :shrug: that seems to be the direction it's going ..

as i presented to the guy above
there are ways to 'twink' any breed/profession
but his reply was just to disregard it all.

i play int/psy armor users and i play str/stam armor users.
i play weapon users and i play casters.
and i am able to use the game rules to optimize them all.
some people just cant be bothered learning the rules;
they want everything given to them.
(or in this case taken away from others)

i wish those people would go back to games
with that sort of design, if that's what is fun to them,
instead of trying to force this game to adapt to
their style of short-attention-span play.

it's not a flame or an insult,
but this game is obviously designed around numbers
and not button-mashing .. so stop asking for the
number-game to be removed.

you take that out and it's just a really boring
game about killing 3 styles of mutants over
and over again.

[_______________Garzu]

Its just STUPID to claim that these proposed changes to overequipping will make it so that you cant have an edge over the non-twinks, overequipping will still be in the game. Cause I am NT, and because i am NT i cant overequip the same way as weapons can be overequipped, but still i have an edge over some other NTs, becauase my equipment is better or implants are higher QL. Well, not true anymore, cause most NTs my lvl all got QL 200 implants, armor, etc, only thing different is what weapon we use, and how much ip spent in different skills. Anyway, overequipping will still be possible, and with it, you will have an advantage over those that doesnt max their characters as much as you do.

[______________Nelida]

What Funcom is doing, and way too many people are supporting, is Balance by Subtraction.
A certain population can't get ahead or keep up so something is TAKEN from those that excel. Once this has occured it will occur again...and again until the AO 'playing field' is nice and 'level', boring, and shallow.

A much more intelligent approach would be to balance by ADDING benefits to the classes or groups that feel left behind or weak. This adds depth to the world of Rubika.

Problem is this; Balance by Subtraction is EASIER and requires little or no creativity...just take out some of what is already there. It's also NEVER done carefully and with overall good results. Balance by Addition is much more difficult and requires quite a bit of creativity to make the new additions interesting and effective in the balance attempt.

Difficulty costs money...easy is cheap...YOU guess which they want to shove down our throats.

Sad part is most of you are FALLING for this blatant attempt to ram the easy way out down us...and we'll take it right up the ass and keep paying them won't we?

[______________Nelida]

Seems to me we have a very clear division between;
1. Those that want everyone to play on a 'level playing field'. In other words make it much less rewarding to spend the extra time, intellect, and energy into maximizing their character beyond what the 'nerfers' can do with casual play.
2. Those that are fiercly independent and dedicated to being the most efficient and powerful they can and WANT to reap the rewards of their efforts.

I propose that Funcome implement 3 different sets of rules:
1. As it is today...overequipping untouched for Clan members. And, exp-to-level remains the same.
2. For Omni a STRICT overequip policy where the weapon becomes red (doesn't unequip) when reqs aren't met. BUT, the exp-to-level is HALF the current.
3. For Neutral players a less-strict overequip rule is in place...weapon damage decreases when reqs aren't me. BUT, the exp-to-level is 3/4 of the current.

For those players that want a level playing field they play Omni and play under severe restrictions but gain benefit of faster leveling...exp is 'subsedized' by Omin Tek Corp. For those revolutionaries that don't want rules and regulations there is the Clan...where it's harder to level but there are far fewer regulations about equipping weapons and such. Neutrals have a half-way world.

Changing sides becomes a prob but could be overcome in the following way:
1. Omni becomes Clan - looses levels and IP depending upon current level. Must have a very SERIOUS reason to change sides!
2. Clan becomes Omni - looses use of all overequipped equipment. Again, must have a REALLY good reason to change.
3. Neutral - same applies as either above.

PvP: not sure of the adjustments that would have to be made but a skewing of the level ranges that can engage may have to be made.

Here you have a solution that ADDS depth and interest to the game and gives good reason to be Clan or Omni.

Consider the implications. Of course Funcome will find this more DIFFICULT and hence more EXPENSIVE so it will probably never be considered.

Oh, and BTW, in case anyone is interested. THIS player would stay Clan if Funcom made exp-to-level FIVE times what it currently is. There is NO price I wouldn't pay to keep my freedom to overequip. Get it? There is also no price I would continue to pay if that freedom was taken away.

[______________Nelida]

Will this proposed change ALSO apply to mobs?
If I drain a mob will the damage of its weapon decrease also?
Today I see NO effect on the damage output of mob when I run HUGE chains of drains...neither in damage of weapons NOR in the nanos the mob runs on me.

Suggestion: Try FIXING broken things before you go out of your way to break MORE. And don't try and tell us that a change like you're proposing WON'T break more...they ALWAYS do.

[Meetshield]

Whats up with this crap people are saying this fix will make everything stale and boring, or that its the lazy trying to punish the achievers, etc...

Is it too hard for you to comprehend that certain classes simply CANT compete under the present system? Its not about making everyone on a level playing field, its about giving everyone an oppurtunity to succeed, and right now thats not possible for a few professions.

When you can show me how an MA can overequip his fists, then I will back off and say you are right and Im wrong.

MAs are the masters of minimum damage right now. Their skills cap at lvl 82 and dont go up again til 100, that puts them 18 levels behind the pack to start with, and no buffs can make up that difference.

For a class that is supposed to do the MOST damage over time, its pathetic what little damage they do compared to the over equipped classes.

There are two ways to fix that, either increase MA damage (which I would be ok with) or take away some of the effectiveness of overequipping. The problem goes beyond MAs and their ability to overequip, or lack of I should say. NTs are another class that doesnt rely on weapons to do their damage. Overequipping effects them also. So Funcom has brought to the table the idea of tweaking overequipping some to remove the ability to go beyond what was intended. They never said they would remove it, and as some people pointed out here (as many of you continue to ignore) the changes will have almost no effect on anyone over 75, but will severely cut down on the twinking of lower level chars.

Anyways, the changes they proposed are actually pretty moderate if you would actually take the time to think outside of the box for 2 seconds. They wont change things at all for agents, enforcers or soldiers, etc... who can equip well over their level without wrangles and such due to their own buffs. But what it will do is give MAs and NTs a chance to compete, cause really, thats all they want.

[___________D.Shaffer]

Originally posted by Zuleica
What Funcom is doing, and way too many people are supporting, is Balance by Subtraction.
A certain population can't get ahead or keep up so something is TAKEN from those that excel. Once this has occured it will occur again...and again until the AO 'playing field' is nice and 'level', boring, and shallow.

A much more intelligent approach would be to balance by ADDING benefits to the classes or groups that feel left behind or weak. This adds depth to the world of Rubika.

Balance by ADDING just creates a rampant upward spiral in power. One class gets something added to make them more powerful. Everyone complains because they perceive that this class is now more powerful or better then the others. This leads to other classes getting more powers and abilities. Since everyone's more powerful, they increase the power of the mobs to compensate. First class again screams about being to weak. Repeat the cycle. I'd rather they lower everyone equally, yes.