Balancing nt.

[Seventh]

My thought about why it aint as easy as it seems :P

Give nt range advantage back and way to keep it- pvm nt can solo any mob. Pvp nt will kill any melee prof (if he can keep the range advantage- if he has it but cant keep it it will be same as its now)- and wont help against ranged. Give nt range advantage over ranged profs- and nt will kill any prof ingame (80 m range and Last Word memories anybody?). Give nt say -50% root immunity debuff- and ma/adv with 90% root immunity/root removers will still kill nt- while nt will garanteed to kill any keeper or ma/adv without all the way immunity. Still aint balancing just messing pvp more.

Give nt roots that actually work in pvp (in other words ones that ignore root immunity)- and melee will be garanteed to die against nt.

Generally like i said somewhere like a year ago and still saying it roots shouldnt been put ingame in first place- there is no way to balance them. Eather they work meaning godlike prof in pvm and in pvp against melee (nt vs ma before SL anybody?), or they dont work then prof based on them is nerfed (nt now...).

So to sum it up nt can forget about range advantage- giving reliable one will unbalance the game, and giving something that works but gives the other side a disent chanse will result in copy of existing range debuffs (and we all know how useful they are...).

The problem is that other ways aint exectly easy to balance too. Lets say that nt getting 1.5 k layer- in pvp it means nt absorbing most perks (sinse most dont hit above 1.5 k or just a little above)- and most burst/fling/ets. And sinse they are different dmg tipes it means nt immune to alpha from most profs- preaty much like acro profs- with the difference that sinse most AS aint capped unless coming from agent, nt will be close to immune to AS too. And nt can chain layers. Now add NS/IU to that and hello godmode...

And generally to whotever solution that will be added you need to add NS/IU combo- nt being fully immune to dmg/having high dmg/unresistable/ranged attack= godmode (for limited time) that needs to be considered for balance.

Probably only way to balance nt is capple of small changes like devs wanted- but seems there are two problems here.

First is that there is no reason why it should take months :P

Second is that so far dev solutions seems to ignore game content- +dmg on Dots with impossible to get alvls/fast dying mobs/uber NR mission mobs anybody?

Cant say that i have a solution but i guess a combo of say better evades buff/better mockery with sta/healdelta buff/resircling every 5 sec 725 layer can give a general guidelines. And say a +50% nanodmg constant selfbuff availible from lvl 150+ that only works in SL so that nt can get teams for lvling.

[Chak]

First of all.

The A-level is not impossible to reach! Some lunatic with no life whatsover and tons of prozac/valium/<insert favorite chemical substance here> went to A30 in the allotted 2 months (ok so the 2 months were a bit longer than normal (2 x 80 day months), but that's beside the point), and that means we all can!

Secondly.

Of course it takes months for these things! They have to make sure the features are as intended and bugfree! They do this with every patch and we always recieve quality stuff, so this is just whineing on your part. Sheesh...
















I'm sorry! This was just too good to pass up.

[Guer]

What i don't get it , why did they give root imunity ?
I understand melee was crap when rooted , but they should of gave them a nano like enfos rage , or root removers stuff . Now if you are melee -- you have alpha,defense,healing and root imunity .Imunity and capped speed = almost god mode ( unless 4+ demigods gather to mess you )
That's plain stoopid , in a SF game the best profesions are those that hit you with there fist,sword,hammer,axe etc. and the real SF profs who use weapons and complicated nano-formulas are sheep for melee .
Bheehheeee

[Chak]

Bheehheeee

So that's why you got the Cyberdeck!

It's a groomer.

[Satenia]

The game has developed since 80m range and 1-hit-kills with last word, there are now several hard caps that will prevent such a scenario to ever happen again.

While it is true that melee professions suffered a lot from roots over the course of the game, we have now reached the complete opposite state where roots and generally range no longer provide a real advantage in most scenarios, be it PVP coming with a lot of immunities, resistance and high NR or PVM coming with mobs hitting beyond a players capped range.

Now while we can argue endlessly about who should keep the edge here and whos fun is being ruined, it's far more important to see that the factor range used to be an essential tool for the NT profession and a good part of the NT toolset is based around just that. By removing range from a NT, there will all of a sudden be the need for higher defensive capabilities. If you compare it to Fixers that used to work very similiar pre-SL (kiting with root/snares), they now come with acrobat and overall high evades/def values. They got (at least partly) compensated for the loss of range.

Now when looking at the official role description given to us a few months ago, you'll notice:

... with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves.

To me this sounds far far away from an evades/layer tankmage, but rather short duration protection until we can escape aggro, which would hint at outranging an opponent. But of course that's just my own interpretation of events ...

[Hydrad]

Eh, when are we effective in teams ? can Silliron fill me on that.

[Guer]

Froob teams , they need nano

[Chak]

Froob teams , they need nano

You're the kings of any team without people with perks!

[Cirte]

let NT Use Weapons and SL nukes ...
on this Way dmg problem is SOlved if we are willing to spend enough time to camp / buy items that can max our dmg output (critincrease , add dmg bla bla ..)

hmm ok with your root argument you are right we are gods or gimps no other way can be implementet.

but layer? 1,5k layer is far away from godmode.
agent / enfo alpha 21k+ (pvp ..) o.O

i know we never get any changes that we get a lot more dmg .. so why not make is just pure supporter ?

teamlayer (~800 that stack with all other layer)
new blinds with higher -alloff
all def auras like crat had one (Notum based ^^)
*cough* Nanoshield ..*cough*

and if we designed to keep aggro away and run away.
some debuff items ... with opposite effekt like Enfo tauter..
high RS buff
insta warp
invisible buff

tree / rock hide morph (you know like Agents Holo thing just noone can attack us while we are in morh mode)

i also really like the Kamikaze idea someone mentioned here (someone ever played Serius Sam? damn if we can scream like this nasty little runners an than *wham* )

ok enogh dreaming for today ^^

[ACM]

Sorry Sevent but I gotta disagree here. 1.5k, 2k layers would be far from giving god mode to NTs. Most professions can easily alpha past this. To stay alive, the NT would have to chain cast layers, therefore nullifying any damage the poor sod could do.

I've said this before, and I'm going to repeat it. Giving full access to Bioshield (and the 10k layer perk) to NTs wouldn't make them overpowered. Take engies for example, they would still be above NTs, with their special blockers, reflect debuffs, souped up bots, etc. Cocoon would just give NTs a chance to compete toe to toe with other profs in pvp.

[Psyloche]

satenia, im agreeing in your analysis of funcoms wiew mostly, but to rebuild the range system may be more work than giving better defense of the NTs, and tankmages will NTs never be(in UO sense, anyway).

The toolset for "surviving aggro" is, i guess, NS and layers, roots is of couse an ok tool, and know NTs used to be good at use them. Im not the only one having the impression NT's role is sort of altered by SL, i think. Im not shure NTs fit the current role well, though, since the aggro of many NTs make them work bad in team, and up to a level the role as DD in team sort of suffer of that. And function as kiters better (well, its an argument for your advantage).

[Seventh]

Sorry Sevent but I gotta disagree here. 1.5k, 2k layers would be far from giving god mode to NTs. Most professions can easily alpha past this. To stay alive, the NT would have to chain cast layers, therefore nullifying any damage the poor sod could do.

Cam easily alpha past 1.5 k hp- sure. But 1.5 k layer when their perks/weapon is different dmg tipes is somewhat different.

And wont need to chain cast- renew it 1-2 times so the other side runs out of perk specials- when nuke it while its weapon dmg gets absorbed on 1.5 k layer that you renew once in the while.

[Nanotehnpoir]

I see some cool ideas in here... I don't know about the absorb idea.. if it was like an absorb maybe that you can recast super fast (insta absorb?) or when casted it lasts for 12 seconds and absorb comes back for every 4 seconds.. so 1.5-2k absorb every 4 seconds for 12 until recasted.. Giving NT's range back would be nice.. but I also think the defensive part of NT's could be upgraded.. absorb might work if you wouldn't have to re-cast it.. or as ACM said, giving NT's 10k absorb would really balance the NT profession out.. and give us a chance to actually take a breath before getting defeated by an opponent in PvP.. of course other professions may still have an upper hand.. but with some skill maybe NT has a chance to survive.. and again the effects like on Electrifying Containment and Crown of Frost on SL nukes (but boosted more) would also help Nano-Technicians really be able to possibly have chance to do something.. Maybe Give IU a 3-4 second stun effect that has 50% chance to land.. or a -250-300 nanoskill debuff to actually maybe give NT's a chance to really defeat some of those caster/healing professions.. I vote for those effects in-game and maybe a better absorb to bring up the Offensive/defensive capabilities to the point where "maybe, just maybe" Nt's have a chance at being successful more in PvP/ and PvM also..

[Seventh]

or when casted it lasts for 12 seconds and absorb comes back for every 4 seconds.. so 1.5-2k absorb every 4 seconds for 12 until recasted..

1.5-2 k absorb recircling every 4 sec will mean that only things that would dmg nt in pvp would be capped AS/FA/Sneak/perks like SnD. Capped FA is unlikely with good evades (can get 1.9 k dodge ran on my nt) and especially with blinds on top, capped AS doesnt happens that often unless fighting agent, Sneak is 40 sec recharge, SnD even more. So with this layer nt would be as immune to dmg as Acro profs- but with close to immunity to AS too. Add NS/IU on top- and you got a good chanse of pvp godmode. Chanse- becouse especially if nt needs to recast it every time nt wont nuke, but still not sure if it wont be more dmg immunity then devs are willing to give us.

Giving NT's range back would be nice..

Read up why i doubt it gonna happen.

but I also think the defensive part of NT's could be upgraded.. absorb might work if you wouldn't have to re-cast it..

Maybe surrent 725 layer but self recircling, combined with better evade buff/healdelta buff and some other stuff like that.

or as ACM said, giving NT's 10k absorb would really balance the NT profession out.. and give us a chance to actually take a breath before getting defeated by an opponent in PvP..

Can be nice sure but i can guess what devs thinking- NS on 19 sec of godmode then layers on another 30 sec of close to immunity then 11 sec to take dmg- then NS is recharged again, then 15 k HoT- and by the time other side cut throw it and NT hp NS is recharged again, then NS again, then layers recharged again. While all this time the other side taking dmg from IU/perks/shield dmg. Would love bioshield but not sure about balance calculations.

of course other professions may still have an upper hand.. but with some skill maybe NT has a chance to survive.. and again the effects like on Electrifying Containment and Crown of Frost on SL nukes (but boosted more) would also help Nano-Technicians really be able to possibly have chance to do something.. Maybe Give IU a 3-4 second stun effect that has 50% chance to land.. or a -250-300 nanoskill debuff to actually maybe give NT's a chance to really defeat some of those caster/healing professions.. I vote for those effects in-game and maybe a better absorb to bring up the Offensive/defensive capabilities to the point where "maybe, just maybe" Nt's have a chance at being successful more in PvP/ and PvM also..

Maybe. Not that sure how much -300 nanoskills will actually help with nanoskills that everybody got, but stun proc on nukes would be nice. Or some prof on dots (with chanse to hit every tick)- maybe nanodrain? But yep procs on nukes would help alot.

[ACM]

Can be nice sure but i can guess what devs thinking- NS on 19 sec of godmode then layers on another 30 sec of close to immunity then 11 sec to take dmg- then NS is recharged again, then 15 k HoT- and by the time other side cut throw it and NT hp NS is recharged again, then NS again, then layers recharged again. While all this time the other side taking dmg from IU/perks/shield dmg. Would love bioshield but not sure about balance calculations.

Probably right there, didn't think about stacking NS and coccoon, and their fairly quick recharge times. As a NT, I'm used to ruling out NS as fairly useless.

[Delerium]

the more i read about balancing layers (and their absorbtion number), the more i'm convinced that a layer that absorbs full attacks instead is easier to balance. Lets say a layer that absorbs 2 full attacks, instacast with 3 sec recharge. In PvP it would take provide some protection against alphas, but nothing that can't be worked through by the weapon professions. In PvM it would leverage a slight advantage on mobs that actually miss you once in a while (NTs that have gone the evade route gets a little payoff). If you choose to relayer all the time you'll be at a standstill where your damageoutput is zero, but the layers would actually pay off for the damage sacrifice instead of being "mostly useless" for protection.

[Yamaeda]

A layer extension in the form of Ward, hit absorbtions is a very good idea (and i think i've written about it earlier). It seems like the NTs burden to not have any self refreshing stuff, except nano-hot, so i assume the Ward-layer would work in the same way. Probably even the same timings as the current layers. It would however be in the layer-line and thus stack with the keeper ward, and there should be a 201 version for 1 attack and a 211 version for 2 attacks ... maybe even a 220 version for 3 attacks. If so, they probably introduce a hostile cooldown also, of say 30s. The point is that it is more powerful than a keeper aura, but require constant monitoring (and thus reduction of damage output)

Hmm, thinking about it it's more realistic to have 1 hit on all, but lowered hostile nano. The Keeper aura starts at 50s recharge, so this could start at 40s, lowered by 5s/version. The hostile would only prevent a new Ward, so normal layers could still be applied in the mean time.

That would at 220 mean NS 19s (right?) + 1 hit ~ 23s of no hurt, then layers for hurt reduction for 30s when a new ward can activate, then 1 layer, then it's time for NS.

It would at 220 mean 2 hits less taken/minute, a noticable and not unreasonable upgrade.

For team performance it should ofcourse be castable on others.

/Y

[HanzRK3]

My thought about why it aint as easy as it seems :P

Give nt range advantage back and way to keep it- pvm nt can solo any mob.

like docs?

[Seventh]

like docs?

Doc can solo only base "hit hard" mob- give it stuns or init debuffs and you will get dead doc. Give nt ability to reliably keep mobs in range- and mob will die no matter debuffs or stuns.

[Darkbeak]

well, imo a 1.5k layer nano doesnt mean that nT gets god mode. Perhaps halfway decent, but not more. Most melee profs these days hit for 1k in pvp. My soldier can hit for 1k in pvp, when i use add damage perks. 2 shots + burst + FA = roughly 7-10k damage on a NT in 3 sec.

The only thing that a 1.5k layer would do is some protection against perks, since they use mostly different damage types. And imo, even if NT gets a perk blocker, 7 perks in 30 sec blocked, he would still be killable.

The exisiting NT layers have a recharge of roughly 4 sec. So for every 1.5k absorb, the NT loses 4 sec worth of damage. So casting IU - layer - IU - layer - IU etc. means like 3k damage every 7 sec, which is pretty ridiculous in pvp these days.

Im all for it, a new 1k layer and a 1.5k layer at lvl 205 and 215.